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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #4712
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    there was a video (shot from within a garda car) uploaded to garda traffic twitter showing a cyclist cycling on the N3 between the navan road train station and the halfway house during the bad snow around easter, as an example of a foolhardy lawbreaking cyclist.
    caused a bit of amusement/bemusement because cycling is legal there. and IIRC - may have this wrong - the video was filmed from the driver's side of the car.

    Yeah, I saw that one, quite funny. They were rightfully lambasted.

    In that article, it said cyclists are allowed to cycle on dual carriageways, but the section of the N3 between blanch and the M50 is three lanes, so I still don't know if they are allowed or not.

    EDIT: I'm getting an education on the different names and classifications of roads in Ireland looking at this. So that section of the N3 is still classed as Dual Carriageway, and slightly morto now, I have to admit that I thought that the "dual" classification only ever applied to roads with 2 lanes going in each direction. Only reading about it there that I went "Dub, of course, you idiot." As I said, morto.


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    #4713
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Yeah, I saw that one, quite funny. They were rightfully lambasted.

    In that article, it said cyclists are allowed to cycle on dual carriageways, but the section of the N3 between blanch and the M50 is three lanes, so I still don't know if they are allowed or not.

    As far as I know only Motorways have a cycling prohibition, that section isn't even a HQDC which is the next best thing. Should be legal.


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    #4714
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The N3 between Clonee and the M50 may be redesignated motorway as part of the N3 Clonee-M50 scheme which has just started entering design. It's too early to be clear as to what exactly be done as part of that scheme.


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    #4715
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    marno21 wrote: »
    The N3 between Clonee and the M50 may be redesignated motorway as part of the N3 Clonee-M50 scheme which has just started entering design. It's too early to be clear as to what exactly be done as part of that scheme.

    Making all Dublin area N roads into motorways or R roads seems to be the thrust of current thinking anyway, I'd expect the same for the N7 also.


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    #4716
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Making all Dublin area N roads into motorways or R roads seems to be the thrust of current thinking anyway, I'd expect the same for the N7 also.
    The N7 will likely become a motorway (or some other fudge found) in order to make it TEN-T Core compliant.


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    #4717
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and IIRC - may have this wrong - the video was filmed from the driver's side of the car.

    If the video was from a Garda car, it would be from a dashboard mounted camera not a handheld device.


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    #4718
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,217 ✭✭✭howiya


    Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition


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    #4719
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    howiya wrote: »
    Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition
    Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?


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    #4720
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    howiya wrote: »
    Aodhan O'Riordan the latest politician to try and advance their career by trying to save a bus route. Leaflet in the door today about a save the 14 petition

    Aodhan is the type of politician that doesn't like to let a bandwagon go by without him climbing aboard.


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    #4721
    davetherave
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭davetherave


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?

    To call it banal would be an injustice to some of the other ****e efforts that our elected show up to the opening of an envelope representatives put in. It's just "Retain 14 bus route"

    https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1070572486260125696


    https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1065920784978378752

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsrpTHYXoAIibeS.jpg
    The proposed #BusConnect changes will have a disproportionately negative effect on the Northside community it serves.
    Doesn't say how or why.


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    #4722
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    davetherave wrote: »
    To call it banal would be an injustice to some of the other ****e efforts that our elected show up to the opening of an envelope representatives put in. It's just "Retain 14 bus route"

    https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1070572486260125696


    https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1065920784978378752

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsrpTHYXoAIibeS.jpg


    Doesn't say how or why.

    I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

    It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

    Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.


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    #4723
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,217 ✭✭✭howiya


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Is there at least a plausible reason given or just a banal "Save the 14" slogan?

    I didn’t read it before disposing of it but I see others have answered


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    #4724
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    Aodhan is the type of politician that doesn't like to let a bandwagon go by without him climbing aboard.
    Presumably only a No 14 bandwagon?


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    #4725
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Qrt wrote: »
    I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

    It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

    Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.

    Much more frequent orbitals which will also open up whole new areas of the city that are currently inaccessible by public transport without going into town.

    There is about 1km of route going from a "direct" to "orbital" service. Of all the "Save the X" campaigns, this has to truly be the stupidest.


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    #4726
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    From 98fm. Just a summary of what was said during the committee hearing on Wednesday.
    Travel times in Dublin will continue to get longer if the Bus Connects plan isn't introduced, according to The National Transport Authority.

    The body has received 30,000 submissions on the proposal, and says re-designing the city's bus network by creating 16 new bus corridors is "vital" to tackle congestion.

    NTA management are appearing before the Dáil’s Transport Committee this afternoon, to answer questions on how the plan would affect traffic, parking and front gardens of houses along the routes.

    Some of the concerns raised include the changing of routes, frequency and the loss of space from some people's front gardens.

    CEO Anne Graham has told the Transport Committee that it's vital some gardens are made smaller to make room for new bus lanes.

    "On average, bus journeys will be reduced by up to 40-50%", she said.

    If Bus Connects doesn't go ahead, she said "journey times will continue to get worse, and commuters will spend more time getting to and from work each day".

    The four proposed routes subject to current public consultation connect the city centre with Blanchardstown, Clongriffin, Lucan and Swords.

    Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, Chair of the Transport Committe, said "all stakeholders involved can agree that Dublin’s traffic congestion requires urgent reform and new thinking".

    Over 1200 Dublin homeowners, who could lose part of their gardens under the Bus Connects Plan, will be notified by February next year.

    The project, which would create 200 kilometres of bus and cycle lanes on 16 new routes, involves taking land off property owners to widen the roads.

    The Dáil’s Transport Committee has heard claims people living along affected routes are living in limbo and cannot sell their homes.

    https://www.98fm.com/news/dublin-commute-times-will-worsen-without-bus-connects-234994


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    #4727
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Presumably only a No 14 bandwagon?

    Yes this is the nonsense all these types of politicians say. I like the rest of the changes but not the ones in my area. Just make a submission saying this is how could the changes in my area could be done better rather than just saying I want the <insert bus route number here> to remain. Tell what changes they could do to serve the area better.


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    #4728
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Yes this is the nonsense all these types of politicians say. I like the rest of the changes but not the ones in my area. Just make a submission saying this is how could the changes in my area could be done better rather than just saying I want the <insert bus route number here> to remain. Tell what changes they could do to serve the area better.

    If a bunch of randomers on a forum can see that it's nonsence, you can bet your backside so will the NTA. I'd imagine even Aodhan realises it's nonsense. It's just part of the game to help him (and all other politicians) get elected in 2020.

    Don't waste your breath on it folks


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    #4729
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I heard the FF spokes man yesterday Lahart banging on about busses and he doesn’t think BC will happen. I’d like to know what the alternative is to BC surely it’s not to just keep going the way we are he’d have to be a simpleton to think that we can just keep going as we are but it’s not about BC it’s about being opposition they think being in opposition means opposing everything. I’ve no doubt if this we had a FF govt or anyone else they would be taking a different tack and your local FG lad would be starting a campaign.


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    #4730
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Tbh I still don't think the issue of Bus Connects is top of most oppostion politicians priorities. I have found that public transport is generally an issue that's fairly low on most politicians priorities.


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    #4731
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Qrt wrote: »
    I'm guessing its the area between Collins Avenue and Beaumont Rd not being served by a bus to town, only orbitals.

    It's horrific urban sprawl which really hampers the efficiency, but then there's the argument of "do you 'punish' people living there because of bad planning"?

    Anyways, they'll be served by two high frequency orbitals connecting to one of the most frequent spine routes so its not like they'll all be housebound.

    The northern section of the 14 bus is hardly "horrific urban sprawl" -- that's more nonsensical than the "save the 14" nonsense.

    468296.PNG


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    #4732
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    monument wrote: »
    The northern section of the 14 bus is hardly "horrific urban sprawl" -- that's more nonsensical than the "save the 14" nonsense.

    468296.PNG

    A quick look on Google Street view showed me semi-d's...and more semi-d's...and more semi-d's, with low levels of permeability and a high emphasis on the car, i.e. the big driveways. Near-complete architectural homogeneity. That's urban sprawl in my eyes, even if it is the upper tier of density.


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    #4733
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Qrt wrote: »
    A quick look on Google Street view showed me semi-d's...and more semi-d's...and more semi-d's, with low levels of permeability and a high emphasis on the car, i.e. the big driveways. Near-complete architectural homogeneity. That's urban sprawl in my eyes, even if it is the upper tier of density.

    The more I hear people talk about "sprawl" the more I realise it's not a word that many people have a shared understanding of... making it almost meaningless and clearly not very useful.

    Relating to BusConnects, can you please explain what driveways, semi-ds, or architecture has to do with the ability to provide buses? To put it in context, this area has a higher square km population density than anywhere near the green line Luas south of the Dodder.

    There might be some low levels of permeability, but overall it would be middle range at worst -- there's loads of lanes, walkways etc in the area of the route I know best that give bus users more permeability than car drivers.


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    #4734
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    monument wrote: »
    The more I hear people talk about "sprawl" the more I realise it's not a word that many people have a shared understanding of... making it almost meaningless and clearly not very useful.

    Relating to BusConnects, can you please explain what driveways, semi-ds, or architecture has to do with the ability to provide buses? To put it in context, this area has a higher square km population density than anywhere near the green line Luas south of the Dodder.

    There might be some low levels of permeability, but overall it would be middle range at worst -- there's loads of lanes, walkways etc in the area of the route I know best that give bus users more permeability than car drivers.

    Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

    The area reminds me of areas like Kingswood, Kilnamanagh and Firhouse. All areas of semi-d homogeneity and large driveways. Kingswood has a bus every hour and ten, with Kilnamanagh having no bus and Firhouse set to be served my an orbital only route. I just based by judgement on that.

    Where are you getting the density map? I’ve tried to find one for ages!


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    #4735
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    Qrt wrote: »
    Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

    Driveways are an indication of the design of each plot, they’re a poor indication of the overall density of the area and they’re absolutely no indication of the permeability or of the suitability for quality public transport. Ironically, they’re more likely to see the road freed for moving vehicle use instead of parking so they might not be all bad.

    In my experience (from living there a long time ago), demand for public transport was high but it was then severely compromised by the Beaumont/Collins junction and the Collins/Malahide junction. There’s no realistic solution to either of those.


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    #4736
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    markpb wrote: »
    Driveways are an indication of the design of each plot, they’re a poor indication of the overall density of the area and they’re absolutely no indication of the permeability or of the suitability for quality public transport. Ironically, they’re more likely to see the road freed for moving vehicle use instead of parking so they might not be all bad.

    In my experience (from living there a long time ago), demand for public transport was high but it was then severely compromised by the Beaumont/Collins junction and the Collins/Malahide junction. There’s no realistic solution to either of those.

    I don’t live in the area so I haven’t a notion, all I did was take the way of thinking from areas that seem similar.


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    #4737
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,036 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Qrt wrote: »
    Driveways = attachment and dominance of the private car

    The area reminds me of areas like Kingswood, Kilnamanagh and Firhouse. All areas of semi-d homogeneity and large driveways. Kingswood has a bus every hour and ten, with Kilnamanagh having no bus and Firhouse set to be served my an orbital only route. I just based by judgement on that.

    Where are you getting the density map? I’ve tried to find one for ages!

    This!


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    #4738
    Brian CivilEng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    Density map on this article is a good place to start.

    http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

    Very few places in Dublin City can be called low density.


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    #4739
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Population density map here (hasn't been updated with 2016 census data yet unfortunately):
    https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8

    Additionally, if you download Chapter 3 of the BusConnects original report, there's a 2018 density map based on projections from the 2011 census (it's on page 35). There are tonne of other great and useful maps in that chapter too.


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    #4740
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    abitofacomedian wrote: »
    Density map on this article is a good place to start.


    Very few places in Dublin City can be called low density.

    A lot of European cities have more high rise than Dublin, but also have big urban parks - sometimes including a lot of woodland.

    Save for the Phoenix Park, parks in inner Dublin are small and pretty poor as amenities.

    This lack of open space does push up density.


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    #4741
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,036 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Bray Head wrote: »
    A lot of European cities have more high rise than Dublin, but also have big urban parks - sometimes including a lot of woodland.

    Save for the Phoenix Park, parks in inner Dublin are small and pretty poor as amenities.

    This lack of open space does push up density.

    Tymon parks pretty huge. So is Marlay Park. Don’t know if you can class them as inner Dublin? They’re inside the m50, well half of tymon is anyway.


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