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11-01-2019, 18:19   #76
Wishbone Ash
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Originally Posted by flatface View Post
I much prefer to indicate with road position than with my hands. Hands rely on someone yielding but position takes control of the situation. Specially at night.
Not always possible if you intend turning right on a busy road with constant passing traffic. At least when an arm is extended, it displays your intention to the motorists behind and someone will usually give way.
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11-01-2019, 19:21   #77
triggermortis
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I much prefer to indicate with road position than with my hands. Hands rely on someone yielding but position takes control of the situation. Specially at night.
To be honest a lot of motorists do this, with a lack of indicators and this results in no-one knowing where anyone else is going.
The present system should work well. Cars have orange flashing lights to indicate their intentions (except for a lot of BMW's ) and cyclists use arm signals. It's what each other expects to see
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11-01-2019, 19:29   #78
flatface
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Not always possible if you intend turning right on a busy road with constant passing traffic. At least when an arm is extended, it displays your intention to the motorists behind and someone will usually give way.
Well after saying that, I noted my commutes today and I do indicate when I need to. If there is any traffic close and I need to do something that my position does not indicate such as pulling in to stop.

But yes, I still think the emphasis should be on position first then hands where there is no suitable space to get into position. I think this important because I see way too many inexperienced cyclists throwing out a hand and the moving out without assessing the traffic.

Lights on hands may give a false sense of security that someone may see them and yield to you. I don’t trust that at all.
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11-01-2019, 19:50   #79
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Every few years somebody invents a built-in signalling system, and it doesn't sell. And then someone invents a backpack with signalling lights, and it doesn't sell. And, despite my personal enthusiasm, people come up with wrist/hand lights every so often, and they don't sell.

I have to say, plain hand-signalling, with or without appended lights, seems to me a lot more effective than indicating lights that are only about 30cm apart.

And I'm not given to categorical statements usually, but cycling with one hand for a matter of seconds is firmly in the Who-gives-a-**** end of the risk spectrum.
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11-01-2019, 19:53   #80
tomasrojo
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Originally Posted by flatface View Post
But yes, I still think the emphasis should be on position first then hands where there is no suitable space to get into position. I think this important because I see way too many inexperienced cyclists throwing out a hand and the moving out without assessing the traffic.

Lights on hands may give a false sense of security that someone may see them and yield to you. I don’t trust that at all.
It doesn't work this way in practice, for me at least. You signal the usual way: look, signal -- wait to see the person behind has understood -- manoeuvre.

It's possible that if a lot of people were using wrist lights, there might be a measure of risk compensation creeping in, but I see someone with something approximating to wrist lights probably less than once a year.
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11-01-2019, 19:55   #81
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I assume lights for indicators on a bicycle are not legal as signals.
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11-01-2019, 20:12   #82
ED E
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I assume lights for indicators on a bicycle are not legal as signals.
Hmmmm (IANAL).

Quote:
“driving” includes managing and controlling and, in relation to a bicycle or tricycle, riding, and “driver” and other cognate words shall be construed accordingly;
So cyclists are considered "drivers" as I understand it (1963)

Quote:
23.—(1) Whenever a driver intends to slow down, stop or alter course, he shall either give a hand signal in accordance with the following Table or give a signal by using a direction indicator or stop lamp :
So there we'd go to Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations which don't give any rules for "direction indicators" for cycles (they do for motorcycles) but do give general rules.

Section 45:
Quote:
45. (1) Where a vehicle which is not required by these Regulations to be equipped with direction indicators is equipped with direction indicators, the indicators shall comply as far as practicable, having regard to the construction of the vehicle, with the requirements of article 18 of these Regulations and in particular they shall—


(a) be fitted in one or more pairs, one indicator of each pair (to indicate a change of direction to the left) being fitted to the left of the longitudinal axis of the vehicle to which it is fitted and the other (to indicate a change of direction to the right) being fitted to the right of such axis,

(b) be fitted so that no part of their illuminated surfaces is less than 16 inches from the ground,

(c) be fitted at the same height and equidistant from the longitudinal axis of the vehicle,

(d) when in operation emit a flashing, diffused light, amber in colour,

(e) be so constructed and fitted as not to mislead other traffic or persons controlling traffic.
So I would say, yes they'd be legally classed as such and would hold up as you having indicated. Again IANAL.

Hand ones aren't fitted to the vehicle itself though so YMMV.
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11-01-2019, 20:12   #83
tomasrojo
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I assume lights for indicators on a bicycle are not legal as signals.
That's a good point. I'm not sure if irishstatutebook.ie has any regulations about signalling for cyclists. The Rules of the Road has a section, but that's not law.
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11-01-2019, 20:14   #84
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Section 45 seems to be the most relevant bit. Good work.
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11-01-2019, 20:15   #85
tomasrojo
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Hand ones aren't fitted to the vehicle itself though so YMMV.
I think we already has a discussion about lights attached to your person rather than the bike, and I think it was concluded that the strict rules about lighting didn't apply to the ones attached to your person. (E.g. only amber for lights pointing to the side.)
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11-01-2019, 20:16   #86
antodeco
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I saw someone yesterday that had indicators on their helmet!
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11-01-2019, 20:22   #87
ED E
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I saw someone yesterday that had indicators on their helmet!
Discussed above, becoming more common.

The lack of separation makes them pretty useless at range IMO.
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11-01-2019, 20:25   #88
beauf
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Discussed above, becoming more common.

The lack of separation makes them pretty useless at range IMO.
Especially at distance at night it's just a flashing light.
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11-01-2019, 20:26   #89
tomasrojo
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I also think, based on the quoted Irish Statute Book bit above, the helmet indicator lights wouldn't replace the need for a hand signal, as the vehicle isn't equipped with a signalling device: that is, the indicating device isn't attached to the vehicle.
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13-01-2019, 00:13   #90
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All hail ED E for providing citation to support his argument on an internet forum. We need more people like this.
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