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Eduard Hempel and Axis Internees

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  • 06-01-2011 9:47am
    #1
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭


    What did he do when he returned to Germany, and was he a firm supporter to the regime or luke warm like most of the German FO

    Can anyone throw light on to this entry on his Wiki page as I have never heard of it before

    Some historians have stated that Hempel was involved in undermining the 1942 allied raid on Dieppe to failure by reporting Canadian troop movements on the south coast of England although this charge has been disputed.


    Did any of them stay on after the war, father remembers a Lituanian chief Engineer in Irish shipping that came off one of the vessels which was interned during the war. (asked where he lived he would say Crumlingrad).


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    #2
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Hempel is supposed to have provided 3rd hand information to Germany, on 2 Allied operations. 1st the one mentioned at Dieppe and also later at Arnhem. The information he provided was quite general such as reporting that canadian troops were gathering in areas on south coast of UK ( Isle of Wight) and that they were using French fishermen for information on areas of coastline. Whether his information was used may not be confirmed but in the time immediately before Dieppe the Germans reinforced the area strongly, suggesting they had prior knowledge.
    In response to the other raids mounted by commandos, the Germans had reinforced
    the Atlantic Wall as a whole and Dieppe in particular. ‘Festung’ [Fortress] Dieppe had
    been constructed; underground pill-boxes, gun emplacements, extra barbed wire and
    concrete road blocks and walls had all now appeared… but not as far as British
    Intelligence was concerned. In fact – and British Intelligence could not have known this
    – the Germans had ordered a high state of combat readiness on the night of 18-19
    August because they suspected that, in light of their successes on the Eastern Front,
    they was a strong likelihood of diversions on their western flank. They had gone so far as to look at the timing of the tides and identified the only three likely windows of
    opportunity available to the Allies for a successful seaborne invasion.
    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kZfjDNxZAGwJ:www.theirpast-yourfuture.org.uk/upload/pdf/Resource_E_Background_to_the_Dieppe_raid_14_Sept_06.pdf+dieppe+germans+reinforced&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjvsgCijr6M1y7wrrvvR5rQxGDO2hVRQrxOHW1MMSv8dyo5ZISFDpe6-zHMM-e0vfk4NOEcRjlLbDvKm92J5V6WUUQk6497wjzlMr7mBJgLbffZ289zTcfBuJ0DYZpvGqTi2dcF&sig=AHIEtbRi1bOoNvhlGZl1g8WiAzTi31adeg&pli=1

    The result was that the operation was not successful although lessons learned helped prepare for D-Day.


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    #3
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    who the fug wrote: »
    Can anyone throw light on to this entry on his Wiki page as I have never heard of it before

    Some historians have stated that Hempel was involved in undermining the 1942 allied raid on Dieppe to failure by reporting Canadian troop movements on the south coast of England although this charge has been disputed.

    I'd also be interested in the source for these claims. Who the Some historians are and what are they basing this on.


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    #4
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    I'd also be interested in the source for these claims. Who the Some historians are and what are they basing this on.

    Looking to do some reading Morlar? I'd say that would be a good idea for you :D:D:D !

    try 'Northern Ireland in the Second World War' (by Brian Barton published by the Ulster historical Fdn.). My information came from that, specifically pages 117- 120. He asserts that Hempels information came from a cousin of his friend Dr. Gogan in relation to Arnhem also.

    There is also a book about Hitlers man in Ireland that you would like 'Herr Hempel at the German legation in Dublin'. Unfortunately I dont have it so cant say if it deals with dieppe.


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    #5
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Looking to do some reading Morlar? I'd say that would be a good idea for you :D:D:D !

    try 'Northern Ireland in the Second World War' (by Brian Barton published by the Ulster historical Fdn.). My information came from that, specifically pages 117- 120. He asserts that Hempels information came from a cousin of his friend Dr. Gogan in relation to Arnhem also.

    Yeah. I am really not that interested in your snide remarks. Yet again you lower the tone.

    As to the source. . . Can you clarify that Hempel in Dublin supplied information he recieved from a 'cousin of his friend' back to Berlin ?

    Or is the claim that he supplied information to Berlin - is it that this claim is based somehow on something said by 'a cousin of his friend' ?


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    #6
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    Yeah. I am really not that interested in your snide remarks. Yet again you lower the tone.

    Twas but a joke, don't take our differences in opinion so personally- it would be a dull forum if we all agreed with each other.
    Morlar wrote: »
    As to the source. . . Can you clarify that Hempel in Dublin supplied information he recieved from a 'cousin of his friend' back to Berlin ?

    Or is the claim that he supplied information to Berlin - is it that this claim is based somehow on something said by 'a cousin of his friend' ?

    According to Barton in previously referred book, Hempel reported directly to Berlin the information in my post no. 2
    that canadian troops were gathering in areas on south coast of UK ( Isle of Wight) and that they were using French fishermen for information on areas of coastline
    .

    Barton also states that (in relation to Arnhem) Hempels information came from a cousin of his friend Dr. Gogan. My understanding of how this is written is that Dr. Gogans cousin was based in england or had insider information from england about the attack.

    Hempels radio transmitting equipment had by 1944 been seized by the Irish government as they feared that this compromised Irish neutrality. Thus it is unclear how Hempel would have assisted in compromising the allied attack on Arnhem.


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    #7
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Hempels radio transmitting equipment had by 1944 been seized by the Irish government as they feared that this compromised Irish neutrality. Thus it is unclear how Hempel would have assisted in compromising the allied attack on Arnhem.

    I think it is all very vague and convoluted, 'someone said that someone said' type stuff. Personally I am not that interested in it as such but I do find it unconvincing and what's more interesting is the way the wiki page is edited and not sourced.

    If I had that Ulster history foundation book I would be looking for a footnote/index to what all of these claims are actually based on, ie did this come to light from a letter, a document at any stage, interview with who by whom when ?

    None of this really answers the question about what is the source for these claims - just that the phrase 'Some Historians' seems to refer to this particular publication and the claims seem to have initiated in a particular book. Not what the author of the book is basing his claims on.


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    #8
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    If there was a specific source I would have posted it. There is in a different part of this section a source referenced after mention of both arnhem and dieppe (it states in relation to leaks from Ireland). The reference means little to me being: NAD, D/FA A53 passim.


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    #9
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    If there was a specific source I would have posted it. There is in a different part of this section a source referenced after mention of both arnhem and dieppe (it states in relation to leaks from Ireland). The reference means little to me being: NAD, D/FA A53 passim.

    That looks like a National Archives archive reference (out by one key letter!) - but it's not clear to me what/where exactly it is.

    eg. here is extremely similar one
    http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/news/feb2004_2.html
    http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/news/feb2004_3.html
    (NAI, Department of Foreign Affairs, DFA, A53)
    (Above) Copy transcript of diplomatic note sent on 22 February 1944 by the American Ambassador to Ireland, David Gray, to the Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera, demanding that the representatives of the Axis Power governments - Germany and Japan - be expelled from their diplomatic posts in Dublin for fear that they may be carrying out espionage activities harmful to the Allied cause.

    (NAI, Department of Foreign Affairs, DFA, A53)

    In fairness - if the source for this IS David Gray - then that is an utterly biased source and not fit for making claims of this nature without independent verification.

    Maybe someone can clarify if your one is the one I linked and we can get to the bottom of this ?

    I think it's interesting how a claim is made in a book with a modest audience, this can then go unchallenged, then another book on a similair subject could crop up by a differnet author referencing the claim made in book#1. Then a year or two down the road another book references book #1 & book#2, followed by a 4th author who writes a book that references the first 3 and then before you know it you have a claim based on thin air backed up by multiple independent sources.

    To clarify - if you or I were an ambassador for our country and Ireland was in a war for it's survival from all fronts, if you had information that could potentially save the lives of tens of thousands of your fellow countrymen would you pass on information to save them ? Or would you put it in a drawer and finish your cocoa ?

    I would pass it on at all costs. I would expect hempel to have passed it on - IF he had that information, IF it was reliable and IF he was able to pass it on.

    The part of this I am interested in is not whether he Would have, or Should have but whether he DID or not and what these (seemingly - or at least to me anyway) new claims are based on. If it's just a letter from the american ambassador I would be extremely skeptical.


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    #10
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    In the same way as Hempel would have his obvious sympathy with his country, Grays view would obviously have its bias.

    JP Duggans 'Neutral Ireland and the third Reich' (1985) is quoted in Bartons book (an example of 1 historian quoting another) as saying in relation to the passing of intelligence that had Gray: 'come to know of these messages there would have been no holding him'. The implication and point being that it does not originate from Gray.

    I don't think these are new claims though, Duggans book was 1985. After his radio was seized Hempels reports to Germany went through London on way to Bern. The Dieppe raid was before this though. Tim Pat Coogan also refers to the Dieppe link (again irritatingly without source) in wherever green is worn (2002).


    142406.jpg


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