Scottish independence

BonnieSituation · 17-09-2020 12:33pm

pixelburp wrote: »

IIRC there was also the carrot dangled at the 11th Hour of even more autonomy via a "Devo Plus" option as I believe it was called & promised. That probably got a few more holdouts to better the devil you know and vote "no". There my knowledge of Hollyrood politics dries up as I presume this "Devo Max" was never properly implemented - assuming I haven't just imagined an otherwise hypothetical talking point from the time.

Ah the "Vow".

Imagine, all it took was one poll for independence, two days before the vote to get them all up to Edinburgh to make it!

Consistent polls for independence now are being met with ignorance and downright hostility.

Better the devil you know, doesn't really wash anymore.

A Dub in Glasgo · 17-09-2020 12:37pm

The Vow

THE man behind ‘The Vow’, the cross-party pledge of greater devolution credited with securing the No vote in 2014, has come out in support of independence.

Former Daily Record editor Murray Foote, who organised the paper’s famous front page on the eve of the referendum, said he could no longer put up with Tory contempt for devolution.

The Smith Commission (included all the political parties) was set up to look at the powers and some were passed to the Scottish Parliament (mainly income tax raising powers), nothing like the kind of powers banded about during the referendum campaign. The commission also signed this

Now the UK govt want to drive a tank through all of this whilst still clinging onto the 'once in a generation' defence

Sam Russell · 17-09-2020 12:46pm

First Up wrote: »

All political choices involve some give and take. If you think eroding the power of councils justifies the disruption of leaving the UK, then vote for it.

I think it would be easier to resist the intrusion into the role of councils than to rebuild the entire government and economy but each to his own.

I do not think you read the post of mine you quote from.

My reference to councils was that the UK Gov (the Tories) want to reduce the assemblies of Scotland, Wales and NI to less than (local authority) councils.

If let to their own devices, I'm quite sure that the Scottish Assembly would quickly expand their remit to ably control the full governance of an independent Scotland. However, if they did vote for independence under the current administration in Westminster, they would have imposed on them punitive arrangements, including a huge share of the national debt.

They really need to leave this corrupt government that hands out whopping contracts to their friends whose only qualification is the size of their donation to the Tory party.

jem · 17-09-2020 12:50pm

IF BJ and the tories can and do break international law and treaties what is to stop the Scottish parliment doing the exact same and take independance using Westministers own precident.

Sam Russell · 17-09-2020 1:25pm

jem wrote: »

IF BJ and the tories can and do break international law and treaties what is to stop the Scottish parliment doing the exact same and take independance using Westministers own precident.

The nuclear subs stationed in Her Majesty's Naval Base, Clyde sited at Faslane on the Gare Loch. I am sure a salvo from them could settle the issue quite quickly. It is quite local to them as well.

Then of course they could send in the SAS, or the Marines, or mabe a few tank regiments.

To quote Stalin, 'How many divisions has the Pope Scottish Assembly?

listermint · 17-09-2020 1:31pm

McGiver wrote: »

Irrelevant. There's no better example from Ireland. It's about a much smaller devolved administration overriding much larger state level administration.

If the sizes are similar or if the constituent parts are many then it's fine and such federal or quasi federal arrangement could work. Like in Spain, Canada or Switzerland.

It's never going to work with the UK "nations" because they are so tiny compared to England and they are only three of them - 1.8M, 3.0M, 5.3M and 53M is such a huge difference that it's unworkable.

If UK had 10 smaller nations with 3M population each and then England with 30M then it could work.

It's completely relevant. Your equating the two is ludicrous. A country has every right to self determination. You going off on tangents about population sizes is you walking away from your initial poor analogy.

Easily spoiled.

fash · 17-09-2020 1:43pm

McGiver wrote: »

In fact, civil law in Scotland is derived from French (and indirectly Norman law).

I was talking about common law - i.e. the law of England and Wales

McGiver · 17-09-2020 3:56pm

fash wrote:

I was talking about common law - i.e. the law of England and Wales

I know my comment was for the OP.

McGiver · 17-09-2020 3:58pm

listermint wrote:

It's completely relevant. Your equating the two is ludicrous. A country has every right to self determination. You going off on tangents about population sizes is you walking away from your initial poor analogy.

How about replying to my post instead. Why is it ludicrous? Why is it a tangent? My explanation is clear. The UK arrangement can never work - England is too large. And the 3 "countries" aren't really countries at all. Only on paper. Spanish regions have higher autonomy and clout then these "countries".

listermint · 17-09-2020 5:06pm

McGiver wrote: »

How about replying to my post instead. Why is it ludicrous? Why is it a tangent? My explanation is clear. The UK arrangement can never work - England is too large. And the 3 "countries" aren't really countries at all. Only on paper. Spanish regions have higher autonomy and clout then these "countries".

I took exception to the silly analogy about county Clare. I engaged with you on that. I've no interest in anything population related . You saw my point you replied it was a terrible analogy. Then end.

briany · 17-09-2020 7:06pm

McGiver wrote: »

Yes but Wales, Scotland and NI are mere attachments to England and don't matter. Westminster would never ever agree to this nor would the English. The population/gdp ratio of England:UK is just too high. It's 80% population wise and probably more GDP wise.

That's why any sort moderation effect of Scotland which has less than 10% UK population is never going to be allowed by the English, and it's a laughable proposition and absolutely unrealistic, especially with the current regime. And I wouldn't disagree with it either, if I was English.
Analogy - Would you be happy if Co Clare was overriding decisions on what happens with the whole Ireland or Dublin?

And the above is also the reason why any sort of devolution or federal arrangement wouldn't work in the UK either unless England was broken down to multiple regions (Cumbria, Cornwall, Anglia, Mercia etc).

England is just too big to merge with others, basically the Union should have never happened, the English were always going to have the upper hand.

Scotland, Wales and NI do matter to England, but not in the sense of being dear partners, more that England (or more specifically, their political establishment) likes having them and their resources and their territory.

If England truly didn't care about Scotland, then you'd figure Westminster wouldn't be so cold toward the idea of another IndyRef, and at least acknowledge the case for another one, given the massive looming change in the UK's direction.

The problem with the UK, unlike Ireland, is that the UK is hugely and historically regional - it's a state, but not a true nation. It's 3 and a bit countries welded together, and not all the joins are sound. Put enough stress on them and they break, and we're seeing that stress in real time with Brexit. The UK government ignoring the fractious nature of their state, and the differing opinions found throughout the constituent countries was totally boneheaded, and they're paying for it now.

A Dub in Glasgo · 17-09-2020 8:01pm

A little graphic that might give an insight into why the UK might not let Scotland go independent. Oh and the thorny problem of where in rUK to replicate Coulport and Faslane

Charles Babbage · 17-09-2020 8:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Then there is something for everyone in the audience of NI. So many people, particulary ROI "Free State" Shinners, seem to forget that at least half the population of NI identifies as British, to an extent that make Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson look like bleeding heart liberals.
Having an independent Scotland with a good chunk of Protestants and Presbyterians in it would assauge their fears somewhat.

Those ROI "Free State" Shinners probably looked at the 2011 census which showed 40% in NI identifying as British and reckoned that this number had gone done since then.

Peregrinus · 18-09-2020 1:57am

First Up wrote: »

There is no happiness associated with Brexit, just varying degrees of unhappiness. Scotland has been shafted and faces hard choices.

That's why I think a better outcome would be keeping the UK together but with changes that would preserve most of what they have as both a UK and EU member.

It might well be a better outcome, but it doesn't seem to be an outcome currently on offer. And there's nothing the Scots can do to bring it about. The problem here is England.

First Up wrote: »

That would suit Ireland too.

It certainly would. But see above.

Peregrinus · 18-09-2020 2:03am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The nuclear subs stationed in Her Majesty's Naval Base, Clyde sited at Faslane on the Gare Loch. I am sure a salvo from them could settle the issue quite quickly. It is quite local to them as well.

Then of course they could send in the SAS, or the Marines, or mabe a few tank regiments.

To quote Stalin, 'How many divisions has the Pope Scottish Assembly?

Yeah, 'cause that approach worked so well to keep Ireland within the United Kingdom.

First Up · 18-09-2020 7:18am

Peregrinus wrote:

It might well be a better outcome, but it doesn't seem to be an outcome currently on offer. And there's nothing the Scots can do to bring it about. The problem here is England.

No doubt about where the problem lies but with the government in disarray, I wouldn't rule anything out. That's part of the problem too of course, because the uncertainty is destroying UK business and investment.

But I am mostly advising those cheering on the break-up of the UK to think about it a bit deeper.

Winters · 18-09-2020 6:02pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhPkHP8eCRo

Angus MacNeil, SNP MP, asked Boris why Ireland has more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does as part of the UK.

Sam Russell · 18-09-2020 7:07pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, 'cause that approach worked so well to keep Ireland within the United Kingdom.

Didn't work for India or Kenya either.

BonnieSituation · 18-09-2020 7:07pm

Winters wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhPkHP8eCRo

Angus MacNeil, SNP MP, asked Boris why Ireland has more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does as part of the UK.

Surely at some point Boris' bumbling is gonna have to be paid. No one else would have gotten away with it this long.

18-09-2020 7:20pm

Winters wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhPkHP8eCRo

Angus MacNeil, SNP MP, asked Boris why Ireland has more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does as part of the UK.

Could it be the same reason Malta has more autonomy than Westphalia or Slovakia does than Catalonia maybe?

18-09-2020 8:02pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Didn't work for India or Kenya either.

Let’s hope that if/when the Acots leave the UK, they don’t leave in the same member they left Aden. Then it really could kick off.

A Dub in Glasgo · 19-09-2020 12:04am

Acots? Leave in the same manner?

Peregrinus · 20-09-2020 3:05am

Aegir wrote: »

Could it be the same reason Malta has more autonomy than Westphalia or Slovakia does than Catalonia maybe?

That's the point, Aegir.

bob mcbob · 03-10-2020 1:19pm

Interesting speech by the new Scottish Tory leader to the Tory party conference.

In his first major speech since he replaced Jackson Carlaw, Mr Ross said: "The case for separation is now being made more effectively in London than it ever could in Edinburgh.

Mr Ross added: "Many, including some who govern our country, want to see a UK government focused on England.
"We pretend these are the views of only a small minority, but I hear them far too often.

And he warned Scottish independence would replace a "Global Britain" with a "Little England."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54399616

Imagine the outrage there would be in the English Tory press if an SNP MP gave this speech.

4068ac1elhodqr · 03-10-2020 1:52pm

There's more talk today of either underground or oversea bridges Scot to NI.
Sounds a bit like desperation, a £20bn+ vanity gamble on securing future unities.

Sam Russell · 03-10-2020 2:01pm

Harvey Quick Typo wrote: »

There's more talk today of either underground or oversea bridges Scot to NI.
Sounds a bit like desperation, a £20bn+ vanity gamble on securing future unities.

Are they aware of the Beaufort dyke? It affects both a bridge and a tunnel.

Are they aware of how remote that bit of coast is from a population centre? From landfall is nowhere near Glasgow (100 km) or Manchester (300 km). What is it supposed to connect to? and why? And the bridge would be an additional 40 km long, assuming is goes straight across.

4068ac1elhodqr · 03-10-2020 2:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they aware of the Beaufort dyke? It affects both a bridge and a tunnel.

Are they aware of how remote that bit of coast is from a population centre? From landfall is nowhere near Glasgow (100 km) or Manchester (300 km). What is it supposed to connect to? and why? And the bridge would be an additional 40 km long, assuming is goes straight across.

Indeed the £20bn quote, would most likely be a HS2 £100bn+ elephant.
Talk in the meantime is completly free, and free from the constraints of civil engineering.

Sam Russell · 03-10-2020 2:29pm

Harvey Quick Typo wrote: »

Indeed the £20bn quote, would most likely be a HS2 £100bn+ elephant.
Talk in the meantime is completely free, and free from the constraints of civil engineering.

Or even logic.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-10-2020 3:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they aware of the Beaufort dyke? It affects both a bridge and a tunnel.

Are they aware of how remote that bit of coast is from a population centre? From landfall is nowhere near Glasgow (100 km) or Manchester (300 km). What is it supposed to connect to? and why? And the bridge would be an additional 40 km long, assuming is goes straight across.

On the NI side it looks better at first thanks to the Motorways. But they only run through DUP strongholds.

The A6 to Derry is single lane in a lot of places with lots of private entrances. Build that and Derry port becomes more relevant.

Upgrading the A1 from dual carriageway to Motorway would improve transport links both ways. Improving the A75 or A77 in Scotland would be more expensive and have lower returns.

As both Northern Irish and Scottish politicians have said there's more important infrastructure projects than an a vanity bridge that only exists to divert attention from the Boris Johnson Garden Bridge fiasco where he was given bridge plans and then wasted £53m with nothing to show for it, even though a similar bridge built nearby was completed for less than half that including costly overruns.

pixelburp · 03-10-2020 3:29pm

If ever there was a case of "qui bono?", Whatever about the political benefits of making the DUP feel wanted, seems more likely given this Tory government that someone is going to make away like bandits from the consultancy phase.

Scottish independence

Comments