NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

bobbysands81 · 18-11-2016 9:49am #1

Details here:

https://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/44855.htm?lang=en

Good luck everyone.

dee75 · 21-11-2016 3:23pm

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

hardybuck · 21-11-2016 4:51pm

dee75 wrote: »

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

Phone Public Jobs.

bobbysands81 · 22-11-2016 1:56am

dee75 wrote: »

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

Kildare has the third highest amount of Civil Servants in the State after Dublin and Cork. Not sure what county is next in those you've listed but Laois and Carlow could be discounted with Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny probably being quite similar in amount of Civil Servants.

hardybuck · 22-11-2016 2:00pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Kildare has the third highest amount of Civil Servants in the State after Dublin and Cork. Not sure what county is next in those you've listed but Laois and Carlow could be discounted with Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny probably being quite similar in amount of Civil Servants.

I think that information is incorrect. Kildare would in a group including Mayo, Westmeath, Galway, Kerry et al.

That information is misleading though, as this is about AP competitions. Tipperary would have more Civil Servants than Kildare, but Tipp is a big county, and then you've got clerical staff working in Garda stations, meat plants etc. Every county has these, plus Revenue and Social Welfare.

The real question there is where are decentralised offices, where you'll find more policy work and APs working. This is why you should ring PAS - you'll get a better quality of response.

I'm aware of Department of Housing who've got lots of people in Wexford town. The Property Registry Authority is in Waterford City. Dept. of Defence is in Newbridge, and then I think Agriculture have a decent whack of staff in Backweston, which is nearly in Dublin.

western4 · 22-11-2016 4:10pm

I applied for this last year (Open) and did very well on the first two phases but not the interview and while I asked for feedback, it was quite sparse on the detail so I've no idea how I'd go about addressing things differently (if I were to get that far again). At the time I felt that the minute I walked into the interview that I wasn't what they were looking for as I'm from the voluntary sector. The interviewers were very pleasant but the questions were fairly vague and non-specific. I suppose I'm wondering is there any point in trying again?! All advice greatly appreciated!

bobbysands81 · 23-11-2016 12:53am

hardybuck wrote: »

I think that information is incorrect. Kildare would in a group including Mayo, Westmeath, Galway, Kerry et al.

That information is misleading though, as this is about AP competitions. Tipperary would have more Civil Servants than Kildare, but Tipp is a big county, and then you've got clerical staff working in Garda stations, meat plants etc. Every county has these, plus Revenue and Social Welfare.

The real question there is where are decentralised offices, where you'll find more policy work and APs working. This is why you should ring PAS - you'll get a better quality of response.

I'm aware of Department of Housing who've got lots of people in Wexford town. The Property Registry Authority is in Waterford City. Dept. of Defence is in Newbridge, and then I think Agriculture have a decent whack of staff in Backweston, which is nearly in Dublin.

You're right actually. The info I gave was incorrect. Limerick is third. Kildare is 4th with same numbers as Westmeath but more than Tipp, Galway and Kerry and FAR more than Mayo.

I agree with you with regard to the stats being misleading as they don't indicate how many APs might be in each geographic area.

Of all the counties the poster listed Kildare would, by far, have the most AP possibilities imo followed by Wexford and Waterford.

hardybuck · 23-11-2016 10:52am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're right actually. The info I gave was incorrect. Limerick is third. Kildare is 4th with same numbers as Westmeath but more than Tipp, Galway and Kerry and FAR more than Mayo.

Sorry no, that's incorrect again.

ZolaGood · 23-11-2016 5:38pm

Am I right that this is comp is open only not both? How do you think this would impact on serving civil servants? Or does it make a difference??

bobbysands81 · 23-11-2016 7:44pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Sorry no, that's incorrect again.

I stand by the post and to best of my knowledge it's accurate. If it's not then please be more specific.

ZolaGood wrote: »

Am I right that this is comp is open only not both? How do you think this would impact on serving civil servants? Or does it make a difference??

It's open to anyone to apply.

A certain number of posts are being held solely for serving Civil Servants (possibly 1 in every 3 but not sure).

The overwhelming majority of APs from the current panel are serving Civil Servants, I've heard anecdotally that DPER were disappointed with this as they expected a far higher amount of non-Civil Servants to be successful.

It's impacts in serving CS as their career path is in theory "blocked" but I don't hear Civil Servants complaining about it.

Dodge · 23-11-2016 9:44pm

For the work involved, the salary isn't good enough to attract many from outside the CS. Certainly not if they're looking for 'management' as they say in this competition

bobbysands81 · 23-11-2016 11:42pm

Dodge wrote: »

For the work involved, the salary isn't good enough to attract many from outside the CS. Certainly not if they're looking for 'management' as they say in this competition

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

doc11 · 24-11-2016 4:46am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

Where? Many of AO's are coming from the private sector in the first place rare to see any coming straight out of college.

gazzer · 24-11-2016 11:50am

When I look at the crazy hours that a lot of the AP's in my department put in I honestly wonder why the hell anybody would apply for these positions? In my department it is not unheard of for AP's to have to travel to Dublin 2 or 3 times a week and they are leaving the house at 6am and not getting back until 9pm. When they are based in their normal office they can be putting in 12 hour days also. The salary on offer is definitely not worth the hours you have to put in.

Riskymove · 24-11-2016 12:30pm

doc11 wrote: »

Where? Many of AO's are coming from the private sector in the first place rare to see any coming straight out of college.

Graduate recruitment is increasing again in private sector

also more opps in public service

People took the first opportunities they could to get back into jobs, for many this was the CO competition

as recruitment increases there are people who came in recently as COs now getting EO or even HEO from open competition

hardybuck · 24-11-2016 2:03pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I stand by the post and to best of my knowledge it's accurate. If it's not then please be more specific.

Tipp has about 17% more than Kildare for example.

hardybuck · 24-11-2016 2:06pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

I think more AOs are promoted rather than lost to the CS.

The salary for AOs is actually excellent in relation to the wages elsewhere. The competitions also tend to have huge numbers of applications.

Ayuntamiento · 24-11-2016 7:48pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I think more AOs are promoted rather than lost to the CS.

The salary for AOs is actually excellent in relation to the wages elsewhere. The competitions also tend to have huge numbers of applications.

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

Dodge · 24-11-2016 8:17pm

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

It's an entry level job though. It's even aimed at graduates

Unlike APs of course.

bobbysands81 · 24-11-2016 11:17pm

Dodge wrote: »

It's an entry level job though. It's even aimed at graduates

Unlike APs of course.

There's also now a more established career path for them in that each AO receives mentoring with an aim to get them quickly to AP.

dee75 · 25-11-2016 11:51am

Thanks for the feedback regarding my question re counties in the south East that have higher numbers of civil servants. Really appreciated. I will ring PAS but it sounds like Kildare and Waterford should be on my list!

Now just have to tackle the application form.

psnKOB79LFC · 26-11-2016 12:50am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There's also now a more established career path for them in that each AO receives mentoring with an aim to get them quickly to AP.

That's fine for AO in dublin where there are far more AP roles to go for, less so in the regions

psnKOB79LFC · 26-11-2016 12:51am

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

Would be shocked to seE someone get AO at age of 22. Where I work it is usually those in early 30s with degree and at least 1 professional qualification

Rock of Gibraltar · 26-11-2016 1:36pm

psnKOB79LFC wrote: »

Would be shocked to seE someone get AO at age of 22. Where I work it is usually those in early 30s with degree and at least 1 professional qualification

I think during the crisis a lot of folks with a few years of experience applied for and became AOs, simply because of the state of the job market and essentially out-competed those more recently out of college.

It has swung back to recent graduates though in the latest competition, I'd say the average age of the latest batch is 26/27.

There's a large turnover of AOs, which I think is to be expected given the relatively low salary and that AOs typically are very well educated and are upwardly mobile.

hardybuck · 27-11-2016 1:06am

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I think during the crisis a lot of folks with a few years of experience applied for and became AOs, simply because of the state of the job market and essentially out-competed those more recently out of college.

It has swung back to recent graduates though in the latest competition, I'd say the average age of the latest batch is 26/27.

There's a large turnover of AOs, which I think is to be expected given the relatively low salary and that AOs typically are very well educated and are upwardly mobile.

What's a large turnover?

I'd also wager that their average age is definitely over 30.

Rock of Gibraltar · 27-11-2016 12:28pm

hardybuck wrote: »

What's a large turnover?

I'd also wager that their average age is definitely over 30.

I don't have actual data on that but in a department I'm familiar with the average length of service for AOs is probably around 2.5 years. Most seem to be promoted within the civil service or move to higher paid positions across the public service, here or internationally, a handful into the private sector.

28-11-2016 12:21am

salary for ao is only poor if you forget to mention that it doubles in a pretty short period of time.

doc11 · 28-11-2016 2:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

salary for ao is only poor if you forget to mention that it doubles in a pretty short period of time.

Assuming you get an AP role. Some AOs could struggle against a well qualified CO in an internal competition. Open competitions, all grades eligible for promotion to AP,recent intake fresh CO and EO who are all well qualified. It's not the closed shop and minimal competition it once was.

Maur54 · 01-12-2016 10:10am

For those on this thread who have gone through the recent HEO competition, l am just wondering if you are using similar or the same examples in this form as used in the HEO competition?

Thanks in advance for any views/obs!

Addle · 01-12-2016 10:18am

doc11 wrote: »

Assuming you get an AP role. Some AOs could struggle against a well qualified CO in an internal competition. Open competitions, all grades eligible for promotion to AP,recent intake fresh CO and EO who are all well qualified. It's not the closed shop and minimal competition it once was.

As an AO, are you not guaranteed AP?

psnKOB79LFC · 01-12-2016 10:25am

Addle wrote: »

As an AO, are you not guaranteed AP?

Funniest comment I have seen in a long time. No way guaranteed

NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

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