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Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?
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According to Google Maps, Wexford to Waterford is a 55 minute drive. Wexford to Waterford, by bus, is 1hr 7 minutes. How many buses are there from Wexford to Waterford every day? 9 according to Wexford Bus, and a similar number of Bus Eireann. Lets assume a 52 seater bus. Is there 50% occupancy on this service every day?
I can't help strongly doubting even your figure of 560 as a demand for this service. Even if it was a high-speed service, I can't help strongly doubt the demand by the time you add in travel times either side of the train journey.0 -
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I'd object to the basic assumption that people prefer rail over coaches and that rail necessarily attracts people out of their cars.
I'd of course prefer Italy's lovely high speed trains over a coach, but that isn't what we have in Ireland.
I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin, once a month I use to travel between the two. For years I did that by train, but when the intercity coach services started up (Aircoach, GoBus) I swapped to them and haven't used the train since.
They offered a service that was as fast as the train, while being much cheaper, more reliable, more frequent and 24/7 service.
And the real surprise was that I found them to be significantly more comfortable then the train! Much quieter, much smoother ride, low lights and reclining chairs, I could actually sleep on it, unlike the train.
Now this is the Cork intercity service, the premier intercity service in the country, with supposedly our nicest trains. By comparison our rural rolling stock is much worse then that and far less comfortable.
In the end, a coach and a rural train aren't all that different. They are both metal boxes, one just on tires, the other on metal wheels.
I don't think most commuters see them as all that different in the way most rural rail "fans" seem to do. Given the choice of the two, most people compare them directly and pick the one that is some combination of fastest, cheapest, most convenient (departure times, frequency). I honestly don't believe that most people consider rail any better, at least here in Ireland.
As for the assumption that only rail can attract people out of their cars. Again I don't believe it is fundamentally true. For people who already own a car, they will only choose the rail/coach option if it is faster then a to b for them. Most of the time, if the car is equivalent or even a small bit slower, most people would continue to choose the comfort and convenience of their own car.
Keep in mind, Dublin Bus is the largest public transport operator in Ireland. It carries the majority of people into Dublin every day. It carries more the twice the numbers of people as DART + Luas combined.
Those are buses doing that. The people of Dublin choose to leave their car at home, and take a bus to work everyday, because the bus is faster (due to the bus lanes) and the cost of parking in Dublin. Non of them are turning their nose up at the bus and saying they will only take a train. I'm sure they would love to have a Metro instead, but given the choice between a Dublin bus or a slower and more expensive journey by car, they still choose the bus.
Just like realistically the majority of people in rural Ireland will continue to choose their car for most journeys versus a slow, infrequent rural train.
I know, it sucks, but it is reality and no point in ignoring reality and spending 100's of million on rural lines that simply don't have the demand and will never be competitive.
Better to spend a fraction of that money improving coach services in the area (for those without cars) and the rest of the money on rail projects elsewhere in the country that actually have the demand and can beat the car. Oh and also invest it into EV cars and EV charging so that we can decarbonsie transport.0 -
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I wonder how many of the posters here actually have travelled on the route in question or are they just trotting out their regular anti-rail rhetoric?
Funny, that, I was just wondering, if the people who propose mad rural rail projects like this in Ireland and say things like rail will take people out of their cars, have ever actually frequently used rail in Ireland. In particular in rural areas. It ain't fun and it ain't particularly attractive.0 -
I wonder how many of the posters here actually have travelled on the route in question or are they just trotting out their regular anti-rail rhetoric?
There is a difference between being 'anti-rail' and being against this specific line re-opening. Actual rail advocates would assess the whole network, identify the places where the current network is being pinched and growth of a successful rail service is being restricted, and prioritise those bits. Unfortunately relaying of ballast and resignalling, or adding passing loops, isn't as 'sexy' as reopening a rural line, but it offers FAR greater benefits, either directly or indirectly by making the network operate better.
Campaigning for a more sensible operations schedule would have far more impact too. ohographite has spoken at length about a sensible timetable for this route, there is one route at each end of this concept (Wexford-Rosslaire and Limerick-Waterford respectively) which is currently being strangled by a nonsensical timetable that doesn't serve the primary potential traffic of those routes. Get timetabling fixed and you at least have a base of sensible operations to grow the network from.0 -
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22053
Yes, I absolutely hate this "anti-rail" rhetoric that gets thrown around!
It is so childish, it is like you are either a "fan" of every single proposed rail project in the country, or you get branded "anti-rail".
Even if you are a massive supporter of billions and billions being invested in rail projects around the country like Dart+, Metrolink, Galway to Limerick double tracking, etc.
Doesn't matter, because you think one or two particular projects don't make sense, don't have the demand and would be a waste of money better spent elsewhere on the network, you get branded as "anti-rail".
No possibility to discuss projects like adults and look at the pros and cons of it.0 -
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The part of this project that has not been broached is the provision of rolling stock. How many units will be required? How will they get to the starting point, and from the starting point?
We have insufficient rolling stock for Dart or intercity to provide the current timetable (pre-Covid), so how will trains be provided to enable trains to arrive in Wexford from Waterford at 8:30 if that cannot be done for Connolly?
Coaches are a completely different proposition. They are easy to provide, and there is no shortage of drivers licenced to drive them.
Perhaps a bit of analysis of the provision of rolling stock might be useful.0 -
Yes, I absolutely hate this "anti-rail" rhetoric that gets thrown around!
It is so childish, it is like you are either a "fan" of every single proposed rail project in the country, or you get branded "anti-rail".
Even if you are a massive supporter of billions and billions being invested in rail projects around the country like Dart+, Metrolink, Galway to Limerick double tracking, etc.
Doesn't matter, because you think one or two particular projects don't make sense, don't have the demand and would be a waste of money better spent elsewhere on the network, you get branded as "anti-rail".
No possibility to discuss projects like adults and look at the pros and cons of it.
You may hate it but on it's the same coterie on here who come down against every rail project whether it's the WRC extension, Ballybropy/Limerick, Limerick/Jn/Waterford/Rosslare or even Mullingar/Athlone.0 -
My anger builds up at the anti-rail posts on here. How many of you have actually lived in the area and are not talking BS about the line from the other end of the country?
I have lived here all my life, for comparison. It was never intended as a branch line serving Bridgetown etc,it can connect the increasingly-busy port of rosslare to Waterford and onto the west of ireland. As well as Wex town to waterford. trains are more convenient, the have tables, they once served food back in the pre-covid days, I could go on.
We cannot keep forcing more people into their cars. Whatever about improvements to the N25 - this does nothing for Public transport. Also, in my very honest opinion, the R733 + passage east ferry is still the best way from Wexford to Waterford.
All the anti-rail posters are usually from the other end of the country and are incorrect about the line.0 -
ohographite wrote: »I do not understand why it is crazy to reopen a railway for 500 or even 5, 000 people.
Opportunity cost. In other words the lost potential benefit of investing that €100 million (or whatever) in other projects.
As previously posted, putting that amount of money into frequent, energy efficient bus services around Waterford would deliver much better transport and much better environmental improvements. Or putting it into cycling & walking infrastructure in the cities.
So once all other transport projects that give better returns have been funded, then if there is €100 million left over look at reopening the line. As it would be paid for from tax revenue, other non transport projects may have something to say about the proposal too.0 -
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Honestly the line has a bigger future as a heritage railway like the ones they have in England or Downpatrick then it does as a functioning and useful part of the network, would almost guarantee it got more passengers as a seasonal heritage line too.0
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reddituser123 wrote: »My anger builds up at the anti-rail posts on here. How many of you have actually lived in the area and are not talking BS about the line from the other end of the country?
I have lived here all my life, for comparison. It was never intended as a branch line serving Bridgetown etc,it can connect the increasingly-busy port of rosslare to Waterford and onto the west of ireland. As well as Wex town to waterford. trains are more convenient, the have tables, they once served food back in the pre-covid days, I could go on.
We cannot keep forcing more people into their cars. Whatever about improvements to the N25 - this does nothing for Public transport. Also, in my very honest opinion, the R733 + passage east ferry is still the best way from Wexford to Waterford.
All the anti-rail posters are usually from the other end of the country and are incorrect about the line.
Knowing that 5 (potentially electric) buses dedicated to the route would cost 25-50x less than the most conservative estimates to restore the line to a decent level of service and provide the same service level or better doesn't require you to have lived in the area.
If, for example, Rosslaire to Dublin was a dual-track high speed line then there would probably be a good case for reopening and upgrading this line, some people are simply aware that if the currently running network is strangled by lack of investment there is less than zero chance of a rural line reopening.
That's not anti-rail, its not anti-rail to acknowledge that the best hope for this line to reopen is to do things like dual track the Bray to Wexford line, put passing loops on the Limerick-Waterford line, improve Limerick Junction etc. Practically the lines currently running to each end are just not good enough to support the link being revived.0 -
1. The same could be said about anywhere. Why run trains, buses are cheaper.riddlinrussell wrote: »Knowing that 5 (potentially electric) buses dedicated to the route would cost 25-50x less than the most conservative estimates to restore the line to a decent level of service and provide the same service level or better doesn't require you to have lived in the area.
If, for example, Rosslaire to Dublin was a dual-track high speed line then there would probably be a good case for reopening and upgrading this line, some people are simply aware that if the currently running network is strangled by lack of investment there is less than zero chance of a rural line reopening.
That's not anti-rail, its not anti-rail to acknowledge that the best hope for this line to reopen is to do things like dual track the Bray to Wexford line, put passing loops on the Limerick-Waterford line, improve Limerick Junction etc. Practically the lines currently running to each end are just not good enough to support the link being revived.
2. It's spelled Rosslare. God forbid a cent is put into the railways. It is NOT a rural line. It connects Rosslare, Wexford and beyond th Waterford and beyond.0 -
riddlinrussell wrote: »Knowing that 5 (potentially electric) buses dedicated to the route would cost 25-50x less than the most conservative estimates to restore the line to a decent level of service and provide the same service level or better doesn't require you to have lived in the area.
If, for example, Rosslaire to Dublin was a dual-track high speed line then there would probably be a good case for reopening and upgrading this line, some people are simply aware that if the currently running network is strangled by lack of investment there is less than zero chance of a rural line reopening.
That's not anti-rail, its not anti-rail to acknowledge that the best hope for this line to reopen is to do things like dual track the Bray to Wexford line, put passing loops on the Limerick-Waterford line, improve Limerick Junction etc. Practically the lines currently running to each end are just not good enough to support the link being revived.
You obviously don't know what has been happening on the Limerick Jn/Waterford line? Loops have been removed rather than added and as for Limerick Junction it has just had a useless new platform added and that's that. This is the foresight that CIE and their masters have. Bray/Wexford cannot be dual tracked for most of its length but would benefit from passing loops and station reopening but that won't be happening.0 -
Tarmac or cement over the Wx/Wd railway. Make it into a dedicated bus lane using electric eco friendly buses. No traffic jams. If there is enough land make a cycle lane and walking lane.
Look I know removing the line and covering it doesn’t come cheap, but it’s something to think about surely.0 -
I'll never understand why this place is so against railways. Of course there is demand for the railway - otherwise why would the South east on track campaign exist?
CIE were determined to close the line down for years. The stations and loops along the route were removed leaving just platforms. There was just one service a day in each direction before it closed. These were at times which suited the staff rather than commuters. There was 0 promotion of the useless service that did exist.
Of course this post will trigger the anti-rail lobbyists again, who cannot cope with the fact that forcing commuters into cars is not the way forward and want every line outside of Dublin turned into a greenway, or say that a bus could provide the service - of course it could, but you could say the same about trains anywhere else. Trains are more convenient for many reasons. People tend to prefer trains to buses, so there is a chance more cars could be taken off the road with a train service. As for the slow line speeds, God forbid we put an few cents into the railways to improve speeds.0 -
You obviously don't know what has been happening on the Limerick Jn/Waterford line? Loops have been removed rather than added and as for Limerick Junction it has just had a useless new platform added and that's that. This is the foresight that CIE and their masters have. Bray/Wexford cannot be dual tracked for most of its length but would benefit from passing loops and station reopening but that won't be happening.
The things you are talking about is exactly my point though!
Fighting to open this line right now while the lines either side are being left to rot is just bonkers, fight to protect and revitalize the lines that are there before trying to resuscitate the dead one!reddituser123 wrote: »I'll never understand why this place is so against railways. Of course there is demand for the railway - otherwise why would the South east on track campaign exist?
CIE were determined to close the line down for years. The stations and loops along the route were removed leaving just platforms. There was just one service a day in each direction before it closed. These were at times which suited the staff rather than commuters. There was 0 promotion of the useless service that did exist.
Of course this post will trigger the anti-rail lobbyists again, who cannot cope with the fact that forcing commuters into cars is not the way forward and want every line outside of Dublin turned into a greenway, or say that a bus could provide the service - of course it could, but you could say the same about trains anywhere else. Trains are more convenient for many reasons. People tend to prefer trains to buses, so there is a chance more cars could be taken off the road with a train service. As for the slow line speeds, God forbid we put an few cents into the railways to improve speeds.
Again, I don't know if you are getting this, but I'm not anti-rail I desperately want rail invested in. I want to see the routes currently getting the Waterford-Rosslare line treatment from CIE (Passing loops removed, illogical timetabling) saved and back to sensible service patterns. The best way to do this is NOT to restore another route that IE will want to run into the ground again, its to improve the rest of the network to the point where they can more easily afford to restore this line.0 -
South East on Track is just hobbyists.
They all need to sit down and drink a big cold glass of reality and have a look at other similar situations.
Western Rail Corridor lobby, leads to reopening a line between our third and fourth biggest urban areas and apart from some localised commuting, its a white elephant. Why a line between our fifth biggest urban area and the back end of nowhere wouldn't be, well I'll let you explain that.....
As recently as yesterday Eamon Ryan committed to a 32 county rail review out to 2040 and even his fantasy prone sensibilities didn't include a Waterford-Rosslare review. In fact, they'll be doing well to secure the future of Gorey to Rosslare at this rate.0 -
South East on Track is just hobbyists.
They all need to sit down and drink a big cold glass of reality and have a look at other similar situations.
Western Rail Corridor lobby, leads to reopening a line between our third and fourth biggest urban areas and apart from some localised commuting, its a white elephant. Why a line between our fifth biggest urban area and the back end of nowhere wouldn't be, well I'll let you explain that.....
As recently as yesterday Eamon Ryan committed to a 32 county rail review out to 2040 and even his fantasy prone sensibilities didn't include a Waterford-Rosslare review. In fact, they'll be doing well to secure the future of Gorey to Rosslare at this rate.
Lets hope its not as shambolic a report as the recent WRC corridor one. It desperately needs to move away from the narrow 'will this specific route make money' to analyse the true costs of not investing in rail, in terms of traffic reduction, pollution etc. And provides sensible upgrades based on the new funding split.0 -
First thing: I've no skin in the game here.
Second thing: I am 100% pro-rail. I'd love a new Kilbarry station. I'd love a new Dunkettle P&R. I'd love a Limerick Junction upgrade. A lot of other "low hanging fruit" or "no brainer" rail projects probably lie near Dublin, even though I'll never benefit directly from them.
Third thing: I believe that low-passenger rural rail fundamentally undermines the whole Irish network. It's a piece of very expensive transport infrastructure. Reinstatement of an alignment for 500-600 passengers per day makes little sense, because it reduces the opportunity of investment elsewhere. There is such a thing as an opportunity cost, and there is a cost to not taking other opportunities.
I also believe that reinstatement of the Youghal line is very very low down the queue for funding, and can provide a leisure amenity in the interim. Therefore I'm against that too.
I realise that it's difficult if you're hearing that your community is low down the queue for what is very desirable infrastructure.
Now if all that makes me an anti-rail lobbyist, then I guess I'll carry that label.
But at least then also please consider yourself as a rail daydreamer or something of that nature perhaps.
And as others here have said, perhaps simultaneously focus on the lower hanging fruits of better scheduling to build up a stronger case for a line reopening?0 -
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Hang on there lads, it isn't unreasonable to contest whether spending 100m on a rail line where there is very dubious demand is a good idea. At the moment I can think of about 50 ways that money would be better spent.
We have chronic unemployment in at least 2 of our major towns. The healthcare facilities in the region are sub-standard. Our towns could use a massive make-over. Facilities at our beaches could use a shake-up. Was it a CAT scan machine they were raising money for a couple of years ago? Resources are going to be absolutely scant for the next few years as we pay for this pandemic - we have much better things to spend 100m on in the region.
I am a complete proponent of the green agenda - I cycle to and from work, and for general errands/pleasure, I try to avoid using my car as much as possible, I often use public transport. But I am also not so deluded as to thinking that some romantic notion about a railway line from Wexford to Waterford for 500 people a day (at enormous running cost) is good value for money. The "build it and they will come" brigade need to realise that rail isn't like putting a line of paint on a road which can easily be reversed.
But above all, we have to learn from expensive mistakes made in the rest of the country. It is a lovely romantic notion to think of a lovely busy train between Wexford and Waterford, but in reality what we would almost certainly end up with is an expensive sparsely populated train.
I am pro-rail, but only where there is financial and service justification for it.0 -
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Reopening the Wexford-Waterford rail line is a low-hanging fruit, if you like to use that phrase so much.hans aus dtschl wrote: »First thing: I've no skin in the game here.
Second thing: I am 100% pro-rail. I'd love a new Kilbarry station. I'd love a new Dunkettle P&R. I'd love a Limerick Junction upgrade. A lot of other "low hanging fruit" or "no brainer" rail projects probably lie near Dublin, even though I'll never benefit directly from them.
Third thing: I believe that low-passenger rural rail fundamentally undermines the whole Irish network. It's a piece of very expensive transport infrastructure. Reinstatement of an alignment for 500-600 passengers per day makes little sense, because it reduces the opportunity of investment elsewhere. There is such a thing as an opportunity cost, and there is a cost to not taking other opportunities.
I also believe that reinstatement of the Youghal line is very very low down the queue for funding, and can provide a leisure amenity in the interim. Therefore I'm against that too.
I realise that it's difficult if you're hearing that your community is low down the queue for what is very desirable infrastructure.
Now if all that makes me an anti-rail lobbyist, then I guess I'll carry that label.
But at least then also please consider yourself as a rail daydreamer or something of that nature perhaps.
And as others here have said, perhaps simultaneously focus on the lower hanging fruits of better scheduling to build up a stronger case for a line reopening?
It would cost less than 100 million to reinstate the railway, according to SEOT. The reason nobody used it was because of the useless timetables, no promotion of the useless service that did exist, and deliberately running the line into the ground. Why are people so afraid of spending money on railways???PhilOssophy wrote: »Hang on there lads, it isn't unreasonable to contest whether spending 100m on a rail line where there is very dubious demand is a good idea. At the moment I can think of about 50 ways that money would be better spent.
We have chronic unemployment in at least 2 of our major towns. The healthcare facilities in the region are sub-standard. Our towns could use a massive make-over. Facilities at our beaches could use a shake-up. Was it a CAT scan machine they were raising money for a couple of years ago? Resources are going to be absolutely scant for the next few years as we pay for this pandemic - we have much better things to spend 100m on in the region.
I am a complete proponent of the green agenda - I cycle to and from work, and for general errands/pleasure, I try to avoid using my car as much as possible, I often use public transport. But I am also not so deluded as to thinking that some romantic notion about a railway line from Wexford to Waterford for 500 people a day (at enormous running cost) is good value for money. The "build it and they will come" brigade need to realise that rail isn't like putting a line of paint on a road which can easily be reversed.
But above all, we have to learn from expensive mistakes made in the rest of the country. It is a lovely romantic notion to think of a lovely busy train between Wexford and Waterford, but in reality what we would almost certainly end up with is an expensive sparsely populated train.
I am pro-rail, but only where there is financial and service justification for it.
Despite what some random people online say, I will continue to believe that a rail service with a proper timetable and decent promotion running from Wexford town to Waterford
would get passengers.0 -
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I am not anti-rail. If someone objects to one rail project, it does not make them anti-rail. It is simply a judgement on that particular project.
I am against crackpot ideas of reinstating a long closed rickety tickety Victorian line from one small place to another small place, with no trip generators at either end and even less in-between. Maybe it was a mistake to close it when it was closed, but if passengers choose not to turn up for the train, it will eventually force closure. Use it or lose it - it ain't coming back once it closes.
Dart expansion needs to be done now and will generate passenger traffic, and get people out of their cars because it will generate passenger traffic on a busy route. It will have frequent services - measured in trains per hour, not trains per day. Trains need to be frequent, fast, and reliable, otherwise they are ignored by the car driving public. If you want people to get out of their cars, they need P&R facilities.
Metrolink is another project that is needed and will also get people out of their cars. There are many trip generators on this line and it will have trains every few minutes. You cannot say that about any of the on-track protestors pet projects. They will be happy to have four trains per day.
Rosslare Europort to Dublin has three services per day. I would concentrate on campaigning to keep that open if you favour rail transport.0 -
reddituser123 wrote: »Reopening the Wexford-Waterford rail line is a low-hanging fruit, if you like to use that phrase so much.
It would cost less than 100 million to reinstate the railway, according to SEOT. The reason nobody used it was because of the useless timetables, no promotion of the useless service that did exist, and deliberately running the line into the ground. Why are people so afraid of spending money on railways???
Despite what some random people online say, I will continue to believe that a rail service with a proper timetable and decent promotion running from Wexford town to Waterford
would get passengers.
Honest question for you: how do you square the notion that the people who operate the rail network, the people who actively campaign for sustainable transport, etc, all think that reinstating this line at a cost of 100million for 500 passengers per day would be a poor allocation of funds?
Do you think they all just don't understand, or do you think that they have some kind of anti-Waterford agenda, or what do you think the rationale might be?0 -
Plot-twist: the wexford-waterford line connects Wexford town, a big town, with Waterford City, a - you guessed it - city. 'no trip generators at either end' is not true.Sam Russell wrote: »I am not anti-rail. If someone objects to one rail project, it does not make them anti-rail. It is simply a judgement on that particular project.
I am against crackpot ideas of reinstating a long closed rickety tickety Victorian line from one small place to another small place, with no trip generators at either end and even less in-between. Maybe it was a mistake to close it when it was closed, but if passengers choose not to turn up for the train, it will eventually force closure. Use it or lose it - it ain't coming back once it closes.
Dart expansion needs to be done now and will generate passenger traffic, and get people out of their cars because it will generate passenger traffic on a busy route. It will have frequent services - measured in trains per hour, not trains per day. Trains need to be frequent, fast, and reliable, otherwise they are ignored by the car driving public. If you want people to get out of their cars, they need P&R facilities.
Metrolink is another project that is needed and will also get people out of their cars. There are many trip generators on this line and it will have trains every few minutes. You cannot say that about any of the on-track protestors pet projects. They will be happy to have four trains per day.
Rosslare Europort to Dublin has three services per day. I would concentrate on campaigning to keep that open if you favour rail transport.
You fail to realize that the reason no one chose to turn up for the train was because there was a useless service with no promotion so no one COULD turn up for it. The service was one train from Rosslare port to waterford in the morning and back in the evening. Not serving Wexford town, and extremely inconvenient for people commuting between the 2.0 -
Perhaps make this question a bit clearer???hans aus dtschl wrote: »Honest question for you: how do you square the notion that the people who operate the rail network, the people who actively campaign for sustainable transport, etc, all think that reinstating this line at a cost of 100million for 500 passengers per day would be a poor allocation of funds?
Do you think they all just don't understand, or do you think that they have some kind of anti-Waterford agenda, or what do you think the rationale might be?0 -
reddituser123 wrote: »Plot-twist: the wexford-waterford line connects Wexford town, a big town, with Waterford City, a - you guessed it - city. 'no trip generators at either end' is not true.
You fail to realize that the reason no one chose to turn up for the train was because there was a useless service with no promotion so no one COULD turn up for it. The service was one train from Rosslare port to waterford in the morning and back in the evening. Not serving Wexford town, and extremely inconvenient for people commuting between the 2.
Which rail provider do you envisage running the reopened line? Is it the same operator who ran a useless service to run the line into the ground? If not who?0 -
windows 7 home premium wrote: »The south wexford line should not be turned into a greenway, it needs to be reopened.
Here is south east on track's business case, give it a read. There's alternatives to ripping up the track for a greenway.
No, there is no names in the report or on the website you listed. If the people proposing to keep it open are not willing to stuck their head up and identify themselves then the cause isn’t worth fighting0 -
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