Legality of bi-directional lane on R148, Co. Kildare

highdef · 27-02-2019 12:14pm #1

Not too far from where I live, there is a crossroads called Cloncurry Cross. It's a few kilometres east of Enfield. If turning right off the main road when travelling east or west bound, there is only one lane for both directions. The image below explains it much better than words. Is this set-up legal? If there is a vehicle waiting to turn right travelling in both directions, both drivers need to co-operate in order to perform the turn safely.

daymobrew · 27-02-2019 12:26pm

I remember seeing such 'centre turning lane' in California. People called them 'suicide lanes' because of the risk of two cars driving opposite direction entering them at same time.

https://goo.gl/maps/9SQd2KomzqM2

Legality here, I don't know. Give the Roads department a quick call.

Artifacting · 27-02-2019 12:28pm

Wow that's a pretty horrific design.

Shouldn't it have cross hatching dividing the two directions?

There's absolutely no indication of which car has priority there.

Reati · 27-02-2019 12:29pm

That's terrible design! I've no come across anything as bad as that before on the roads here.

highdef · 27-02-2019 12:29pm

Thanks to you both for the feedback. I think I will try the roads department.

Just to add, several years ago, there were "yield" road markings, as shown in the streetview image below. When the junction was re-painted, these road markings were not reinstated. Even with these in place, the idea of a bi directional lane on a very busy junction with less than perfect visibility on the approach (especially heading eastbound) is rather dubious.

Artifacting · 27-02-2019 12:32pm

It's a badly laid out crossing which should be lined up to prevent accidents but the correct way of doing that is with hatching.

You'd have a single turn holding spot in each direction and the rest hatched out.

Those kinds of misaligned crossings should be adjusted whenever possible. They're deathtraps really.

highdef · 27-02-2019 12:34pm

Artifacting wrote: »

Wow that's a pretty horrific design.

Shouldn't it have cross hatching dividing the two directions?

There's absolutely no indication of which car has priority there.

If I am approaching the junction and want to turn right and I see a long line of cars that will need to pass before I get to turn, I look in my rear view mirror and if there is no traffic coming up behind me I keep far back on the junction, so that any car wishing to turn right travelling the opposite way can do so as safely as possible. There is no priority on the shared lane.

Artifacting · 27-02-2019 12:35pm

There's no indication in the Google maps image that it is a shared lane.

If a driver saw that lane they could easily come up at considerable speed.

The right turn for both cars is past the opposite junction too due to the misalignment. So you could end up with a head on collision.

It's an abysmal design.

Also if a car is waiting to turn right in either direction it blocks the car trying to turn right from the opposite direction.

The only solution there is to cross hatch that lane creating an island and two right turning wait points that are accessed from the main traffic flow.

It isn't a single junction / crossroads due to the bad misalignment. It's actually two separate right turning junctions close together on either side of the road. Someone has tried to bodge them together into a single junction.

There shouldn't be any shared lane.

What you have there is a single lane with traffic flowing in opposite directions. That's absolutely crazy.

irishgrover · 27-02-2019 12:37pm

god forbid that there was an acident at any point.... but can you imagine the resulting lawsuit and payouts....

highdef · 27-02-2019 12:55pm

irishgrover wrote: »

god forbid that there was an acident at any point.... but can you imagine the resulting lawsuit and payouts....

There have been accidents here.

cdaly_ · 27-02-2019 12:57pm

Artifacting wrote: »

It's a badly laid out crossing which should be lined up to prevent accidents but the correct way of doing that is with hatching.

You'd have a single turn holding spot in each direction and the rest hatched out.

Those kinds of misaligned crossings should be adjusted whenever possible. They're deathtraps really.

It should absolutely not be lined up. Instead it should be adjusted to offset the two junctions from each other so that each right turn is entirely independent of the other.

You can see in the below where a plain crossroad was re-aligned to prevent driving straight through. In this case, opposing vehicles turning right never cross each other.

At Cloncurry there's a perfect opportunity to move the northern road 30m east to fix this.

highdef · 27-02-2019 1:07pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

It should absolutely not be lined up. Instead it should be adjusted to offset the two junctions from each other so that each right turn is entirely independent of the other.

At Cloncurry there's a perfect opportunity to move the northern road 30m west to fix this.

Completely agree and this is really the only viable solution.

I've emailed the roads department in KCC asking them about the legality of the bi-directional lane and therefore the legality of the junction. I say "legality" because I had a quick look at the Road Traffic Act in the Irish Statute Book and I cannot find any reference as to how a driver should negotiate a bi-directional lane. I'm guessing (but am very much open to correction) that if it's not mentioned, then a bi-directional lane is not legal in the first place.

I will openly admit that bi-directional lanes could be discussed in the Road Traffic Act but that I have simply missed it. Would be good to get input from some of the very knowledgeable posters, with regards to Road Traffic Act laws.

Artifacting · 27-02-2019 1:10pm

As it stands at the moment it's a bad cross rather than two independent junctions.

They've managed to make a bad situation significantly worse by not adjusting the alignment far enough to create that and using the wrong layout of road markings.

A simple + junction would at least be intelligible.

As that is laid out at the moment you could have someone trying to drive across it (there's no hatching) and you also have two right turns that are in one lane overlapping each other risking a head on collision.

Should be a ghost island setup.

It's an absolutely dogs dinner

com1 · 27-02-2019 1:22pm

Simple fix. Ban right turn for west bound traffic. Make them drive the few hundred metres up the road to the roundabout and back to the junction

highdef · 27-02-2019 1:29pm

com1 wrote: »

Simple fix. Ban right turn for west bound traffic. Make them drive the few hundred metres up the road to the roundabout and back to the junction

Whilst I agree with the idea in principle, your mention of driving "the few hundred metres up the road to the roundabout and back to the junction" is highly inaccurate as this journey is over 3km.

Charles Babbage · 27-02-2019 1:37pm

You can see in the below where a plain crossroad was re-aligned to prevent driving straight through. In this case, opposing vehicles turning right never cross each other.

But this stagger is fine for a country where we drive on the left, as the right turns are before each other, the junction above is the opposite.
There is plenty of space in the above junction, they need two right turning lanes.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-02-2019 1:40pm

The left turns out of the side roads are appallingly laid out too, the turn radius is way too large, Especially on the bottom one of the first picture.

This encourages traffic to not stop and look properly (even though there is a stop sign) because it's not a tight turn. It also means that if/when they look for traffic it's at a very oblique angle through their side window/B-pillar blind spot instead of them being at close to 90 degrees to the mainline traffic and having a much clearer view.

Makes it much easier to enter the junction while 'looking' but not seeing oncoming traffic on the mainline, especially a motorcycle.

highdef · 27-02-2019 1:52pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The left turns out of the side roads are appallingly laid out too, the turn radius is way too large, Especially on the bottom one of the first picture.

This encourages traffic to not stop and look properly (even though there is a stop sign) because it's not a tight turn. It also means that if/when they look for traffic it's at a very oblique angle through their side window/B-pillar blind spot instead of them being at close to 90 degrees to the mainline traffic and having a much clearer view.

Makes it much easier to enter the junction while 'looking' but not seeing oncoming traffic on the mainline, especially a motorcycle.

The left turns are terrible alright. Many a time I will see a driver making a left turn from the bottom side road. He will go straight over the stop line and enter the junction almost parallel to the main carriageway, stopping (sometimes) just to the left of the hard shoulder markings. Very dangerous thing to do due to lack of visibility and awareness of surroundings.

This junction also gets better.....at the point you mentioned there is a bus stop. There's also on diagonally opposite on the other side of the main carriageway. The bus stop icons are shown in the image in my initial post. I would also question the legality of the bus stop positionings on within the junction.

n97 mini · 27-02-2019 8:26pm

daymobrew wrote: »

I remember seeing such 'centre turning lane' in California. People called them 'suicide lanes' because of the risk of two cars driving opposite direction entering them at same time.

https://goo.gl/maps/9SQd2KomzqM2

Legality here, I don't know. Give the Roads department a quick call.

I've driven extensively in the US and the rules about those are pretty simple. Don't drive in the lane, only turn into it when you're actually making the turn. The idea is that you use it to just get out if the way if the traffic behind you.

After your wife screams at you for actually driving in the lane you quickly learn!

cdaly_ · 28-02-2019 11:37am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

But this stagger is fine for a country where we drive on the left, as the right turns are before each other, the junction above is the opposite.

That's correct and the stagger was implemented to offset the (previously dangerous) crossroad. In the case of Cloncurry, the northern road can be moved 30 metres east of its current alignment to achieve the same stagger.

highdef · 28-02-2019 11:49am

cdaly_ wrote: »

That's correct and the stagger was implemented to offset the (previously dangerous) crossroad. In the case of Cloncurry, the northern road can be moved 30 metres west of its current alignment to achieve the same stagger.

Would it not be the case that the northern road be moved to the east? Moving it west would just cause even more conflict with the right turning lane on the main carriageway, assuming that the bi-directional lane is kept in place.

cdaly_ · 28-02-2019 1:21pm

highdef wrote: »

Would it not be the case that the northern road be moved to the east? Moving it west would just cause even more conflict with the right turning lane on the main carriageway, assuming that the bi-directional lane is kept in place.

Bother! I keep getting that wrong! East is what I meant...

Carawaystick · 01-03-2019 11:51pm

Artifacting wrote: »

you also have two right turns that are in one lane overlapping each other risking a head on collision.

Unless the drivers could see there's a car in the way, when they will slow down or stop to prevent a collision

highdef · 01-03-2019 11:58pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Unless the drivers could see there's a car in the way, when they will slow down or stop to prevent a collision

Unless the driver is aware of this junction (someone local), due to restricted sight lines it's unlikely a driver turning right on the main road will be aware in a safe time that there's a car in the same lane traveling in the opposite direction.

Legality of bi-directional lane on R148, Co. Kildare

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