MORE crap on the way.

TeaBagMania · 20-11-2015 8:25pm

Here’s an idea for the legislators, maybe if a couple of those 120+ victims had a cancelled carry permit and were holding they could have saved a few lives and sent a few terrorists to allah

I have a cancelled weapon permit and don’t carry my .45 on a daily basis, but im getting damn close

JPNelsforearm · 20-11-2015 8:29pm

Cass wrote: »

Thats great when you're in a country where you have a constitutional right to guns. That is not the case in Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and i'm sure the majority of other European countries.

But even to fight for the "rights" we already have, there is a huge push from the hippie brigade to make the West a gun free zone, we have loads of arms manufacturers in europe, its in their interest to have a healthy population of people interested in shooting and armaments

Cass · 20-11-2015 8:43pm

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Here’s an idea for the legislators, maybe if a couple of those 120+ victims had a cancelled carry permit and were holding they could have saved a few lives and sent a few terrorists to allah

And have a bunch of untrained, have-a-go "heroes". Eh, no thanks. They are most likely to shoot someone by accident, mistaken identity or out of stupidity.

I have a cancelled weapon permit and don’t carry my .45 on a daily basis, but im getting damn close

Not available here, UK (IIRC), and again not sure about the rest of Europe, but i doubt it or at least to no where near the same extent as it is int he States.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

But even to fight for the "rights" we already have,

There is your first istake. You, me and the general we have NO RIGHTS. At least not when it comes to firearms. There is no right to have one. I thought i said that above when i mentioned how the states are different to us in that they have a constitutional right to guns and we don't.

there is a huge push from the hippie brigade to make the West a gun free zone,

Possibly.

we have loads of arms manufacturers in europe, its in their interest to have a healthy population of people interested in shooting and armaments

For sporting purposes, yes. For law enforcement/military well thats beyond any of our interests. As for defending ourselves. Well in Ireland it's illegal to have a gun for self defense. Like above it's the same in the UK, but i don't know about the rest of Europe.

Secondly the gun manufacturers are not interested in arming the populace for some sort of assault against IS or any other group. They interest is business. They'll sell more guns in times of panic than peace, but as i said it has little to do with most of Europe as ITS NOT THE STATES.

TeaBagMania · 20-11-2015 8:51pm

Cass wrote: »

And have a bunch of untrained, have-a-go "heroes". Eh, no thanks. They are most likely to shoot someone by accident, mistaken identity or out of stupidity.

Fine, make extensive training part of the requirements.

Taking the Paris situation into consideration, personally I’d rather have and untrained pistol packing have-a-go hero by my side than nothing at all

Cass · 20-11-2015 8:55pm

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Fine, make extensive training part of the requirements.

So a militia?

Taking the Paris situation into consideration, personally I’d rather have and untrained pistol packing have-a-go hero by my side than nothing at all

As said it's not on the cards as the law stands now, with the EU looking to reduce firearm ownership i doubt it'll ever be a consideration and frankly the majority of people shouldn't have a catapult let alone a real gun so i'll stick with my previous opinion of "eh, no thanks".

TeaBagMania · 20-11-2015 9:00pm

I don’t really consider all the cancelled weapon permit holders in the US a militia, but hey if it dentures suicidal terrorists great.

TeaBagMania · 20-11-2015 9:02pm

I don’t know why my font flakes out like that sometimes but thanks for the fix

Cass · 20-11-2015 9:08pm

.............. weapon ................

See, there is your mistake. Weapons. We don't have them here. We only have firearms. I'm not being pedantic either, but we get enough of that "weapon" talk from our own police force and i wouldn't let it slide with them either.

As for your post. I don't want to sound like a dick but perhaps you might explain it a bit for me as i'm loosing something in translation.

You say:

I don’t really consider all the cancelled weapon permit holders in the US a militia,

Cancelled firearm permits are moot as they no longer exist. So what exactly do you mean.

........ but hey if it dentures suicidal terrorists great.

Again i'm loosing you here. What have false teeth got to do with the topic? Not being a dick, but does dentures have a different meaning?

I don’t know why my font flakes out like that sometimes but thanks for the fix

No hassle.

TeaBagMania · 20-11-2015 9:20pm

A firearm, knife or bow and arrow are considered weapons, or at least to anyone with a military background. We don’t consider guns, rifles or pistols firearms, they are all weapons, sure if you want to get into semantics you can classify them as anything you want.

When we obtain cancelled weapons permits in the states, training is part of the requirements and I don’t consider myself as part of a militia just because I have one.

Cancelled firearms permits are moot? In Ireland, yes, but maybe that should change

Dentures? lol you got my typo, meant to be “deter”

Cass · 20-11-2015 9:39pm

TeaBagMania wrote: »

A firearm, knife or bow and arrow are considered weapons, or at least to anyone with a military background. We don’t consider guns, rifles or pistols firearms, they are all weapons, sure if you want to get into semantics you can classify them as anything you want.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Ireland, but let me explain a few things so you get an understanding of the way things work here. I'll try to be as succinct ass possible:

We have three classifications of firearms
- Unrestricted - Unrestricted refers to bolt action rifles, shotguns with 3 shots or fewer and 5 shot, .22lr pistols ONLY.
- Restricted - Semi auto rimfires that have mag of more than 10 rounds. Semi auto centrefire rifles (all calibers). Centrefire handguns (and there are only 200 or so left as new licenses were banned in 2008). Shotguns that hold more than 3 shots. Bolt action rifle over .30cal. Crossbows.
- Prohibited - Anything other than what i've mentioned above.
We cannot have a gun for self defense and to apply for one as such is illegal and will be refused.
We don't have concealed carry permits for anything.
We must be members of a range to have a pistol and only in .22 lr (not just any rimfire) caliber.
We cannot have Bow & arrows for hunting. It's illegal. As are spears, etc.
Crossbows are classed as restricted firearms. Yes exactly like a semi auto Ar15.
As there is no legal draw strength in the law about crossbows then technically even a child's toy that fires sucker darts is, in law, a restricted firearm.
Paint ball guns are technically restricted short firearms, the exact same as my Sig 9 mm. However due to some unknown force they have not been pulled up on it.
We need licenses for any "gun" that can fire a projectile with a muzzle energy of 1 joule or greater. This means BB guns, airsoft toys, and air rifles can be classed as firearms and in the cases where they exceed 1 joule MUST be licensed.
Brass is classed the same as live ammo. So empty brass goes towards the total amount i can have, which is limited by the number the Superintendent gives me.
Reloading is essentially illegal.
A trigger, barrel, rifle stock, bolt, action, etc. are all classed as firearms in their own right. IOW they don't have to be on a firearm to be classed as one and so if you were caught with a rifle trigger and no license you face up to 7 years in prison and/or €25,000 fine.
A suppressor is also a firearm in law. IOW you must a gun license for a suppressor even if you don't own a gun.
Same applies, technically to NV scopes.

These are just some, and i'm only scratching the surface, of the laws we have here. That does not include the 9 page application for a gun, the 3 months waiting time, the "voluntary" surrender of medical privacy, allowing unwarranted searching of homes, interview with police, having to provide a good reason as "i want it" does not count, and all this to be done for every gun we want. IOW one gun, one license.

When we obtain cancelled weapons permits in the states, training is part of the requirements and I don’t consider myself as part of a militia just because I have one.

I think we're getting our wires crossed. I still don't fully understand what a cancelled "weapon" permit is. It seems cancelled and permit are confusing me. Not hard to do, i'm blonde.

However the arming of non military, untrained people to me is a militia.

Cancelled firearms permits are moot? In Ireland, yes, but maybe that should change

If you read the above and keeping in mind that only 1 in 40 people in Ireland own a gun then you'll understand the prevailing attitude is "Everyone hold hands, put French flags on your Facebook page, and think good thoughts" and that'll be enough.

Dentures? lol you got my typo, meant to be “deter”

Ye, i got a picture of some gummy old Veterans trying to fight IS

Grizzly 45 · 20-11-2015 11:03pm

Think the word is spelt C-o-n-c-e-a-l-e-d?
Not being a spell check Nazi here ,but cancelled means somthing different.

Technically said ,Yes you can get concealed carry permits in Europe in certain countries,[Germany,Czech republic,Austria,Italy]and a little known fact that also includes here in the ROI.It is actually a perogorative of a cheif Super and upwards to grant such if they belive there is an imminent"clear and present" danger and "good reason"[,and we know CS and good reason here:p] to a persons life.However ,for that to become reality ,you would need to convince a CS that you know the exact day date time and that abolutely there is no other way you could get AGS asistance to prevent a threat to your life.As well as being some sort of VIP,IE somone who worked in the Criminal Assest Bureau or a political figure who has been threatned by our own home grown terrorists.

Now the next problem is those that have had sidearms delt out to them havent ever recived another vital prerequsite ,apart from been shown how to use the gun safely ,[more or less],is how to use it in a incredibly stressful and horrendously difficult situation,that is a total parallel universe from sporting shooting.Unless you train and train dilligently in defensive shooting,having a gun is less than useless to you,and proably even dangerous.

Even police officers who carry will tell you it isutterly traumatic,and a life changing event to have to fire at another human being.Ever wonder why you hear of reports of people being shot multiple times when only a shot or two would do,in laymans eyes?Its called "stressfire"Where even professionals ,military or police will say "I only remember firing the first shot."After emptying a 19 round mag into someone!!.This is also why the military spends so much time in training recruits to shoot at realistic enemy targets
.A US military study found that in Vietnam 75% of troops would fire to miss their enemy.In the American civil war muskets were found that had been reloaded up to 9times and never fired!Troops had been going thru the drills of loading and firing but had never fired the gun at their enemy.So even as a trained soilder you will find it hard to shoot another human.

Next like in the only other country I have experiance of concealed carry to private individuals being Germany.It is a very final option of the police cheif to issue this,and again it had better be very unique .[Say you are an Israeli living in Germany,it is almost an automatic grant situation.Being a journalist reporting on the Hells Angles,drug and gun running in St Pauli,Hamburgs red lite district,and getting direct death threats to you and yours wont qualify!!]

Thing is,it only will be issued to you for as long as the threat is valid on your life. If however your job calls for it,private investigator,armed security company,etc,you have good reason to aquire a company permit,but only for duty carry.

Ironic then too that our police consider IPSC shooting "combat training" which violates one of the most important adages of genuine combat training .You go SLOW!!!..IPSC is based on speed and accruacy and steel and paper doesnt shoot back.Real life where the bad guys shoot back is a different matter.

To sum it all up.While an ardent beliver in CCWP ,self defence and the RTKBA,I cant see it working in Europe,although there is nothing stopping the EU weapons directive or law from member states allowing a EU version of 2a if they so wish or had the political cohjones to do.
But it is mostly an alien concept to most Europeans and unless the people chosen are willing to take some very intense training and are just in the right place at the right time.Like sitting at that resturant last week or in the gig it will be next to useless.Trying to suggest a US solution in Europe is not going to work,as much as using western logic is going to solve the middle east problems.

Cass · 20-11-2015 11:13pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Think the word is spelt C-o-n-c-e-a-l-e-d?
Not being a spell check Nazi here ,but cancelled means somthing different.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Never crossed my mind that it was concealed. I was trying to wrap my head around cancelled permits and if i was missing something obvious whereby a firearm could be had and used without a permit for it.

Technically said ,Yes you can get concealed carry permits in Europe in certain countries,[Germany,Czech republic,Austria,Italy]and a little known fact that also includes here in the ROI.

But for the reasons you pointed out it is all but impossible, and not as readily available as it is in the states.

Now the next problem is those that have had sidearms delt out to them havent ever recived another vital prerequsite ,apart from been shown how to use the gun safely ,[more or less],is how to use it in a incredibly stressful and horrendously difficult situation.........

This is what i was going towards. Untrained persons, and i'm not talking about proficiency, with firearms for self defense or the defense of others. I guarantee in 99.9% of instances it'll be a mistaken identity (shooting someone they think has done something), shooting themselves (out of incompetence/lack of basic firearm handling knowledge) or as you've said the actual ability to separate what you think you could do from what you actually would do.

Trying to suggest a US solution in Europe is not going to work,as much as using western logic is going to solve the middle east problems.

Correct.

Sparks · 20-11-2015 11:46pm

Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...

JPNelsforearm · 20-11-2015 11:50pm

Sparks wrote: »

Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...

What does rkba mean?

Cass · 20-11-2015 11:51pm

Sparks wrote: »

Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...

Thats my bad too. Apologies, got caught up in the talk.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

What does rkba mean?

Right to Keep & Bear Arms. (RKBA)

Grizzly 45 · 21-11-2015 12:09am

We'll try to stay on the right side of that line.:)
Although I fear that sooner or later outside our little group this line is going to be changed in the really real world of the EU whether we like it or not.

TeaBagMania · 21-11-2015 12:57am

Ahhhh I didn’t notice my spelling mistake either, no wonder we were on different wavelengths. Apologies Cass

I was rushing out of work, typing fast, not paying attention to my spelling

Ill end it here as I don’t want to get busted for RKBA

Rosahane · 21-11-2015 12:18pm

Interesting and sensible approach to these proposals from Finland!

Finnish Parlament Statement Regarding Revision of Weapons Directive E 60/2015
Original Statement:
https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/Lausunto/Sivut/HaVL_15+2015.aspx

Proposal:

In the E-letter received there is a question regarding pre-emptive measures to potential changes to weapons directive. According to letter, we can expect that European Commission proposes restrictions to private ownership of at least automatic firearms and proposes moving the semiautomatic versions of assault rifles to category A and restricting private sales of firearms over internet.

Opinion of the Cabinet:
Banning of the automatic weapons and restricting semiautomatic versions:
Finland believes that commission should restrict illegal trafficingof firearms instead. Illegal trafficing will become harder once deactivation standards are aligned. According to commission this is discussed in meeting of firearms committee on 3rd of November 2015. In addition trafficing can be curbed by aligning the legislation regarding ”essential parts” of firearms in member countries more efficiently. Restrictions to internet-trade and more supervision can also prevent firearms from falling into wrong hands.

Instead of banning private ownership permits process can be revised to control the possession of such firearms better than today for example requiring proof of need and membership in sports organization. In addtion permits could be re-evaluated periodically.

Restrictions to arms collectors:
Deactivated firearms have little to none collectors value and banning them does not harm shooting sports in Finland. Possession of automatic firearms should still be allowed to private collectors and museums. Also it is necessary to continue giving permits to full auto firearms for academic purposes.

Restrictions to Internet sales:
Instead banning internet sales, better option would be to control it. Permits should be required to purchase firearms online and sales over the bordes should controlled by improving exchange of information between the authorities.

Arguments of the Cabinet:

In the E-letter there is a question about pre-emptive measures regarding directive 91/477/ETY (firearms directive) revision. According to information commission has given statement on 18th of November 2015 to which U-letter is being prepared. In this statement cabinet addresses the questions regarding changes to weapons directive based on feedback received from the experts. In this weapons directive the minimum standards are set for weapons legislation in member countries. This directive only sets the minimum level for national legislation and it has proven to be inefficient regarding weapon definitions and essential parts. Due to this national legislation differs in member countries and because of this it is possible to legally buy parts and assemble firearms and transport them to another country where those parts are illegal. Therefore the current control system is inefficent and risk of getting caught is only minor.

Based on estimates, the European Commission proposes restrictions to private ownership of at least automatic firearms and proposes moving the semiautomatic versions of assault rifles to category A and restricting private sales of firearms over internet. No detailed information is available at this time.

Based on recent studies, these restrictions might have significant impact to private ownership of firearms and shooting sports in Finland. Depending on the proposed content, these restrictions will impact national defense, national reserve shooting events, sports shooting, hunting and weapons collecting. This also has a significant impact on gun manufacturers and retailers.

Cabinet proposes to pay particular attention to impact for voluntary military reserve activities. Voluntary reserve has a significant role in maintaining both will and skill of the reserve. Finlands defence relies on large reserve.

95% of the military personnel are reserve whose skills are maintained by Finnish Defence forces. Voluntary activities support this activity and ensures that reserve can support authorities.

According to studies restrictions to semiautomatic assault rifles and machine pistols will have significant impact to skills of the armed reserve. Shooting activities are mostly performed with weapons proposed to be restricted and over time this will impact both skills and morale of the reserve. According to cabinet restricting reserve activities sends a mixed signals outside. According to studies, change also impacts the position of maanpuolustuskoulutusyhdistys as a strategic partner to Finnish Defence forces specially if possession of weapons is not allowed to public organizations.

Banning of the private ownership of semiautomatic firearms leads to the end of the sports shooting activities like pistol shooting, IPSC and it also might impact weapons used for hunting. Banning of automatic firearms impacts collectors.

Based on E-letter, restrictions to internet sales are vague at best. There is no information whether selling, buying or both are proposed to be restricted. The weapon types mentioned in E-letter are already requiring permits in Finland and moving them over borders requires permits as well. Customs will monitor that weapons moving across the borders have all necessary permits. Proposed restrictions perhaps try to address illegal firearms sales where parts are sourced from multiple countries exploiting the differences in legislation when it comes to deactivation standards and definitions of ”essential parts”. According to studies received by the cabinet, there have been incidents where deactivated firearms have been found to be easily converted back to functional automatic weapons. These insufficiently deactivated firearms have been found from Finland. Cabinet agrees that common deactivation standards would be an efficient mean to prevent illegal firearms trafficing and process to align standards should be expedited.

In Finland all restrictions apply only to law abiding citizens who use firearms in authorized and controlled shooting sports. Restrictions to internet sales would introduce additional challenges to those transactions where the distance between buyer and the seller is long. This is common in Finland. Also weapon maintenance is essential part of firearm safety.

The goal of the commission is to improve internal security of the EU. According to cabinet measures in E-letter, it is not possible to efficiently prevent obtaining firearms illegally. Instead proposed measures target already restricted legal activities. Received statements also indicate that the more strict the firearms control is, the bigger the demand for illegal firearms is.

The changes should address restricting the illegal firearms trafficing instead. In addition cabinet states, that preventing crime in EU area requires contant efficient communication between different authorities and expert knowledge of the firearms law.

It is the opinion of the cabinet that in Finland firearms law is strict but functional which enables safe and controlled weapons collecting, shooting sports, hunting and reserve shooting activities and participation to shooting competitions. Cabinet also believes, that EU restrictions should rather use Finnish firearms legislation as a model of a working firearms law ant try to harmonize EU legislation according to Finnish legislation.

JPNelsforearm · 21-11-2015 12:23pm

"Finland believes that commission should restrict illegal trafficing of firearms instead"

LOL, too logical for the EU, easier to target the people who obey the law.

I dont understand the bit about the internet sales? Criminals arent buying AK's etc from online retailers. It makes zero sense to even go in that direction, the internet is here to stay.

Cass · 21-11-2015 1:05pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

I dont understand the bit about the internet sales? Criminals arent buying AK's etc from online retailers. It makes zero sense to even go in that direction, the internet is here to stay.

It's a reasonable and sensible approach to the matter and pretty much in keeping with what i said (and every other person/country already knows):

Cass wrote: »

Seeing as how there are laws governing this already i thought it was a silly comment. What is needed is more money to enforce the existing laws.

How about you just tackle the illegal guns that are out there?.

IOW as the release says Finland would much rather enforce the laws that already exist, and not react in a kneejerk manner to the release from the EU.

Also this piece caught my eye:

Instead of banning private ownership permits process can be revised to control the possession of such firearms better than today for example requiring proof of need and membership in sports organization. In addtion permits could be re-evaluated periodically.

Exactly the system we have here, already. You must show god reason and be a member of an authorised club/range.

So once again, don't make up new laws that will only serve to destroy the legal shooting sports, but enforce the existing laws that are currently in place. By all means tighten up the laws in countries where it's not as strict, but Ireland, the UK, and it seems other EU countries already are on top of that.

BrownTrout · 21-11-2015 9:28pm

TeaBagMania wrote:

Hereâ€™s an idea for the legislators, maybe if a couple of those 120+ victims had a cancelled carry permit and were holding they could have saved a few lives and sent a few terrorists to allah

That's the job of the Gendarmarie, ie, Military personnel taking on policing roles. You often see them patrolling around the Eiffel Tower and other landmarks in Paris.

Grizzly 45 · 22-11-2015 4:45pm

Looks like Finland,Czech Republic,Hungary,proably Slovakia and Malta are saying "No deal" to this already.
86 Thousand have signed the petition online within 48 hours of it going live. Hope you all have signed it too,as this affects you too even if you dont own any nasty black guns, or own a lowly .22 semi auto Ruger ..Anything with "military features" is fair game...

Still the silence from NASRPC,NARGC,CAI on this issue is intresting...Only CA Irl has issued a statement sofar,and thats a copy of CA UK.
Big frogs in little ponds ,and parish pump politics comes to mind.:rolleyes:

UPDATE
The Spanish pro gun and hunting umbrella groups have come out against it too,as have the Polish.
Will this be like the Eurovision song contest voting.?Irlande Null pointe..Ireland no points

tac foley · 22-11-2015 4:51pm

Cass wrote: »

Thats great when you're in a country where you have a constitutional right to guns. That is not the case in Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and i'm sure the majority of other European countries.

Since you have already mentioned it, there is only one country of earth that has, as part of its WRITTEN constitution, the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

I'm ignoring all the one-eyed dingbat countries where five-year-old kids with eyes full of flies walk around the street lugging an AK, I'm talking about civilised countries.

tac

tac foley · 22-11-2015 4:57pm

BrownTrout wrote: »

That's the job of the Gendarmarie, ie, Military personnel taking on policing roles. You often see them patrolling around the Eiffel Tower and other landmarks in Paris.

The Gendarmerie is not, as you put it, a group of military personnel taking on policing roles -

The National Gendarmerie (French: Gendarmerie nationale) is a branch of the French Armed Forces, in charge of public safety, with police duties among the civilian population in France. It also contains a military police force and a special forces component (GIGN). It had a strength of more than 98,155 personnel as of 2011.

The Gendarmerie works with the other national law enforcement agency, the Police Nationale, and from 2009, although it is a part of the armed forces establishment, it is now a part of the Ministry of the Interior as its military component and forms part of its operations and budget. It is mandated to fulfill national security duties and duties in support of its parent ministry.

tac

Big Bangstick · 22-11-2015 5:30pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Still the silence from NASRPC,NARGC,CAI on this issue is intresting

Strange you don't mention the NRAI seen as your a member of it. Or have NRAI made a statement as I can't find it. Are you a member/affiliated to NASRPC, NARGC or CAI by any chance?

Looks like it's not a big issue here especially with possibly only 160 odd restricted rifle licence in the country.

onetimecypher · 22-11-2015 5:39pm

[QUOTE=
Looks like it's not a big issue here especially with possibly only 160 odd restricted rifle licence in the country.[/QUOTE]

New EU legislation also covers semi-auto PISTOLS , of ALL calibres and semi-auto SHOTGUNS

Big Bangstick · 22-11-2015 5:52pm

onetimecypher wrote: »

New EU legislation also covers semi-auto PISTOLS , of ALL calibres and semi-auto SHOTGUNS

Still small numbers in the overall scheme of things

Grizzly 45 · 22-11-2015 6:13pm

Ah yeah BB nail your colours to the mast there why dont you? Maybe you should read the legislation before posting ignorant statements
It affects everyone..Want to try getting a part or scope for your gun in the EU and tou think the paper work is bad now? Want cumpulsory psychological assesment on top of your medical information bein collated by the EU via the gaurds?Want a EU graduated firearms test brought in and an EU apprenticeship system as well??Then go stick your head in the sand like most people when it comes to the EU here and leave your ass wide open to be kicked. Very hard!Small things ...80 thousand and counting people around the EU might disagree with you.But so long as you with your SxS are left alone you are grand right??
BTW I am not a member of the NRAI so what ever you are trying to insuinate there is is sadly wrong.

onetimecypher · 22-11-2015 6:21pm

Below is the form that can be completed by individuals and groups and associations, to offer up their feedback to the proposed new legislation.

Please complete and forward to all shooters and associations and groups

https:

//ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/?fuseaction=feedback&docId=3085376&language=en

Cannot post weblinks, so put https: in front.

JPNelsforearm · 22-11-2015 6:33pm

Big Bangstick wrote: »

Still small numbers in the overall scheme of things

Number are irrelevant, bad legislation is bad legislation

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

MORE crap on the way.

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County