Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

Clegg · 18-05-2019 10:39pm

Scarlets built their style around an good pack that could ruck, jackel, carry and link better than any side in the Pro 14. They weren't the biggest or strongest, but skills made up for it. They were especially adept at disrupting opposition attacking ball and getting turnovers.

What really made them good was developing a system where their standout talent could flourish, namely Barclay and Beirne. But last summer they lost both of them, the heartbeat of their side. Those two could do it all. Couple that with Shingler and James Davies missing a huge part of the season through injury and you're left with a pretty average pack. They lost all their poachers, their ruck work took a huge step back, and their ball carrying was pretty abysmal. Could punch holes in sides.

Last season's European semi and League final, both against Leinster, showed up Scarlets deficiencies. If you could starve them of turnover ball they struggled. They weren't geared to take the game to you. You could pretty much bully them.if you had the right set of forwards. Which is what happened. Losing their best forwards has only exacerbated Scarlets problems.

sydthebeat · 18-05-2019 10:42pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not sure how Connacht had an easier end to year than Leinster? Leinster didn’t make European knockouts that year and last two games before final were handy wins over Treviso and Ulster. Connacht had two tough battles with Glasgow.

Leinster provided 18 of the 31 2015 RWC squad. Connacht provided 2.

Connacht had the easier run in due to their squad consistency.

Connacht thoroughly deserved their win... No doubting that.

troyzer · 18-05-2019 10:46pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The flip side to that is Leinster are battle hardened for a physical war.

It's also the last game of the season, it's easier to get tired and sore bodies motoring when there's a massive session at the end with no worries.

Yeah, can't disagree.

Though having seen ospreys twice, Glasgow twice, munster and connacht all win the league on the back of an easier end of year than their more fancied opponents...... I'll make my considerations on those basis

You're right. The Pro14 has a weird habit of bringing out the best in weaker teams on paper.

ClanofLams · 18-05-2019 10:53pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Leinster provided 18 of the 31 2015 RWC squad. Connacht provided 2.

Connacht had the easier run in due to their squad consistency.

Connacht thoroughly deserved their win... No doubting that.

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 11:03pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Connacht won fair and square. At that stage Lam was 3 years into a project and Cullen got threw in at deep end with a squad he needed to migrate from old to new.

If Leinster won that year it would have covered the cracks, the loss helped them as it sped up the squad transition

At the end of the day based on that day but over the whole season Connacht deserved it

sydthebeat · 18-05-2019 11:05pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Leinster were 2/5 favourites for that game.
Connacht were 2/1

errlloyd · 18-05-2019 11:10pm

The previous year we didn't make the playoffs... So like...

ClanofLams · 18-05-2019 11:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Leinster were 2/5 favourites for that game.
Connacht were 2/1

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 11:29pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

Leinster where not very good, sexton, Cullen etc all-came out and said it

sydthebeat · 18-05-2019 11:32pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

No, but I'm backing up my point about the underdog prevailing against the "more fancied opponents" which is where this whole conversation came from.

I'm suggesting that Glasgow +4 is surprising to me given the history of the finals and the circumstances coming into this one.

If you think leinster -4 is good value then lump on it......

ClanofLams · 18-05-2019 11:36pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Leinster where not very good, sexton, Cullen etc all-came out and said it

Yeah in fairness the transformation was impressive in its speed. They won 1/6 that year in Europe including Wasps beating them by 30 in Dublin. There was a lot of hand wringing in media about how provinces would no longer be able to compete in Europe. Some turnaround to be champions two seasons on.

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 11:41pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah in fairness the transformation was impressive in its speed. They won 1/6 that year in Europe including Wasps beating them by 30 in Dublin. There was a lot of hand wringing in media about how provinces would no longer be able to compete in Europe. Some turnaround to be champions two seasons on.

I will use WC as excuse for the Wasps game, players came back and straight into game. Wasps players had leinstrr lined up after England early exit

Some Leinster players didn’t know calls. Sexton returning from France, it was a disaster and never recovered

The Bath match at home was the sign of things to come, remember the atmosphere that night after the win, first time in a while some real excitement

The MOC years had drained it......

Got to final, decent season to kick off Leo and that was it

jacothelad · 19-05-2019 9:28am

troyzer wrote: »

You're right. The Pro14 has a weird habit of bringing out the best in weaker teams on paper.

Would someone tell Ulster.....:D:D:D:D

freak scence · 24-05-2019 6:39pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7RrdGDXoAAPo4I.jpg

salmocab · 24-05-2019 6:47pm

freak scence wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7RrdGDXoAAPo4I.jpg

A fairly suspicious spread of players there

joseywhales · 24-05-2019 7:01pm

I feel like Leinster or Glasgow would hammer that team

Buer · 24-05-2019 7:07pm

salmocab wrote:

A fairly suspicious spread of players there

Players have to have featured in a minimum number of games. When you take that into account, it's not that suspicious. Plus guys like Lee Lo, Mata and Fa'ainga have had brilliant seasons. They're completely worthy recipients.

I'm not sure there's much of a dispute against any of those selected.

Shefwedfan · 24-05-2019 7:21pm

joseywhales wrote: »

I feel like Leinster or Glasgow would hammer that team

1 Leinster and 1 Glasgow player

Exclamation Marc · 24-05-2019 11:48pm

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

troyzer · 24-05-2019 11:50pm

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

Exclamation Marc · 24-05-2019 11:54pm

troyzer wrote: »

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

So true and the irony of that makes it even more bizarre!

troyzer · 24-05-2019 11:55pm

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

So true and the irony of that makes it even more bizarre!

Eddie's England selections frequently make no sense so at least there's a consistency there.

Buer · 25-05-2019 5:31am

Exclamation Marc wrote:

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

They did. That is very much the right selection. I haven't seen anyone actually make a valid argument as to why the team is incorrect aside from complaining that Leinster or Glasgow would beat it. On the basis of the season, the vast majority deserve to be in the side.

baas baa · 25-05-2019 9:18am

I remember about 10 years ago they did a dream team for the Pro 12, probably the first year they did it and they just went by the profile of the player and nothing else, it was laughable. Most of the players had only a handful of appearances.

Exclamation Marc · 25-05-2019 9:47am

Buer wrote: »

They did. That is very much the right selection. I haven't seen anyone actually make a valid argument as to why the team is incorrect aside from complaining that Leinster or Glasgow would beat it. On the basis of the season, the vast majority deserve to be in the side.

Ken Owens for a example is in the team. Fraser Brown has much better stats around the park for this season. Owens played 13, Brown played 10.

James Lowe has generally better stats (and a few seriously better stats such as tackles, offloads and passes) proportionally to Maxwane at 11 but played half the games.

So the criteria are slightly unclear. I agree that it shouldn't include say a Sexton because he barely plays in the Pro14 but it certainly should be a bit clearer when players fall into contention.

Buer · 25-05-2019 9:59am

Maxwane plays for one of the weaker teams yet scored 14 tries. There can be no complaints about his presence. He had to be in the team.

Hooker is a pretty marginal call due to a lack of a real stand out. Stuart McInally probably had a decent claim before Edinburgh fell apart late on. But again, I can't imagine there are too many looking at the team and thinking Ken Owens is jumping out as a clearly incorrect call.

Exclamation Marc · 25-05-2019 10:14am

Buer wrote: »

Maxwane plays for one of the weaker teams yet scored 14 tries. There can be no complaints about his presence. He had to be in the team.

Hooker is a pretty marginal call due to a lack of a real stand out. Stuart McInally probably had a decent claim before Edinburgh fell apart late on. But again, I can't imagine there are too many looking at the team and thinking Ken Owens is jumping out as a clearly incorrect call.

I agree about Maxwane, you couldn't really omit the top try scorer.

It just seems as if the qualifying criteria are pretty unclear which doesn't help.and maybe that's the fault of rugby being a tricky game to really focus on individuals in some instances

errlloyd · 25-05-2019 10:19am

I'm sort of stuck on this one. On the one hand I think this team does reward players who deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think it sells the league very well when casual rugby fans read it and know basically no one, or fans of other leagues read it etc. I know it's a reflection of reality, but the league should just put its 15 best players down or nothing

awec · 25-05-2019 11:32am

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm sort of stuck on this one. On the one hand I think this team does reward players who deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think it sells the league very well when casual rugby fans read it and know basically no one, or fans of other leagues read it etc. I know it's a reflection of reality, but the league should just put its 15 best players down or nothing

But it reflects reality. The better players barely play in the league.

errlloyd · 25-05-2019 11:39am

I know. I said in the sentence after the one you highlighted that it was a reflection of reality.

Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

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