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Dunmurry Springs GC closed 12.11.19

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    #92
    BrandNewMedium
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭BrandNewMedium


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The purpose is to throttle back on new memberships. Make it a bit more expensive and they'll go elsewhere. So either subs or entrance fees. Entrance fees don't impact existing members, so that's why they come in. Subs increases would. Did you not read the post you quoted? I thought I made it perfectly clear.

    Why not just close for new membership entirely? If the club is full then it’s full, if it’s not then it’s not.

    An entrance fee suggests the club is not full but the club sense an opportunity to generate revenue for zero additional value, not a very positive behaviour.


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    #93
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    BrandNewMedium wrote: »
    Why not just close for new membership entirely? If the club is full then it’s full, if it’s not then it’s not.

    An entrance fee suggests the club is not full but the club sense an opportunity to generate revenue for zero additional value, not a very positive behaviour.
    You don't want to do that. Membership numbers go up and down. Club says it's closed for membership and people just stay away. Adding an entrance fee, slows down applications, doesn't stop them entirely. That's the desired outcome.


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    #94
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The purpose is to throttle back on new memberships. Make it a bit more expensive and they'll go elsewhere. So either subs or entrance fees. Entrance fees don't impact existing members, so that's why they come in. Subs increases would. Did you not read the post you quoted? I thought I made it perfectly clear.

    I read it, i just disagree with it but thanks for the condescension :cool:.
    I had hoped the gouging days were over.


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    #95
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Scott Tenorman wrote:
    I read it, i just disagree with it but thanks for the condescension . I had hoped the gouging days were over.

    I don't see it as gouging at all. Somebody joining a club is benefitting from all the investment and work put in by those who built the place. Why shouldn't they contribute?

    The traditional member owned club model offered what was in effect a share in the club and that still applies in many older clubs. In proprietor owned clubs it is still reasonable to ask new members to recognise and commit to the work of their fellow members.


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    #96
    Ollieboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    Scott Tenorman wrote: »
    Why would you be looking to bring back entrance fees?

    When you join a members club you get a share of the assets of that club.

    So why would a business allow you to buy in for free and give you a asset worth thousand for nothing? Call it goodwill but I don’t see why you think a business gives it equity away for nothing.

    If a club closes down which I accepted is rare with no debt, you would be in line for a investment return.

    If the members bought Dumurry for 1 million, say 200 at 5k each and in 3 years they decide they can’t make a go of it and they can sell it. So let’s say they get 3 million, is it fair you would get that equity if you didn’t contribute? But If you paid a entrance fee you would be entitled to a share.

    The problem with the question and your not alone, is people don’t understand the membership model.

    The Island, Grange, Clontarf, Royal Dublin, Malahide and many more have entrance fees, do you not ask why? It’s not because they are the top end of golf, it’s because they have millions in the bank and when you become a member you get ownership of that equity as a member.

    Lucan golf club which isn’t at that end as a entrance fee because of the same reason.

    I hope that makes sense... I know it’s hard to get your ahead around it because people don’t want to pay it so argue without understanding the model.

    A easier option might be to have equity share and non equity share but someone with a non equity share can’t be on the management committee and have a say in the business. I suppose that’s a model that keeps both sides happy.


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    #97
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Scott Tenorman wrote: »
    I read it, i just disagree with it but thanks for the condescension :cool:.
    I had hoped the gouging days were over.
    All the information was in my first post. Yet somehow I had to say the same thing two more times. I'd say not so much condescension as exasperation.

    And as First Up says, it's not gouging. And you have choices. 388 clubs in Ireland. Most counties have at least six or seven. Many have multiples of that.


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    #98
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    If it's gouging, who exactly do you think is benefiting from this gouging in a members club?
    There are no profits remember...


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    #99
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    When you join a members club you get a share of the assets of that club.

    So why would a business allow you to buy in for free and give you a asset worth thousand for nothing? Call it goodwill but I don’t see why you think a business gives it equity away for nothing.

    If a club closes down which I accepted is rare with no debt, you would be in line for a investment return.

    If the members bought Dumurry for 1 million, say 200 at 5k each and in 3 years they decide they can’t make a go of it and they can sell it. So let’s say they get 3 million, is it fair you would get that equity if you didn’t contribute? But If you paid a entrance fee you would be entitled to a share.

    The problem with the question and your not alone, is people don’t understand the membership model.

    The Island, Grange, Clontarf, Royal Dublin, Malahide and many more have entrance fees, do you not ask why? It’s not because they are the top end of golf, it’s because they have millions in the bank and when you become a member you get ownership of that equity as a member.

    Lucan golf club which isn’t at that end as a entrance fee because of the same reason.

    I hope that makes sense... I know it’s hard to get your ahead around it because people don’t want to pay it so argue without understanding the model.

    A easier option might be to have equity share and non equity share but someone with a non equity share can’t be on the management committee and have a say in the business. I suppose that’s a model that keeps both sides happy.

    If your club feels that way why didn’t it retain the entrance fee? And why reintroduce it now?


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    #100
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Scott Tenorman wrote: »
    If your club feels that way why didn’t it retain the entrance fee? And why reintroduce it now?
    This is pretty much the same question that I answered three times. I don't think I'll bother with a fourth. :rolleyes:


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    #101
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    This is pretty much the same question that I answered three times. I don't think I'll bother with a fourth. :rolleyes:

    That’s super as I wasn’t asking you anyway


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    #102
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Clubs charge entrance fees or hello money because they can. It's a simple as that. If demand outstrips supply, you can do this.

    The real value of entrance fees isn't the money it brings in, it's the money it stops going out. If you have an entrance fee, you have a long-term value in being a member of a club. It stops churn which is a killer if club finances are tight.

    I'd say every club in the country would charge them if they could. Their reintroduction would be the best possible sign of good health in the golf industry in this country.

    If you are down to 200 members and your lender is about to foreclose on you, you are a long way away from being able to charge entrance fees.


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    #103
    mike12
    Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    The golfer who moves club every year are the ones that make it very hard for a club to budget.
    Once u paid a joining fee u were basically committing to that club for the long run.

    Now u could have 20 or 30 guys joining for a year or 2.
    Lots of clubs doing a special rate for year 1 hoping to catch these guys for a year or 2 before they move on again.
    Joining fees stop that for me it's a sign of a healthy club in a location that can command a premium.
    You often find that the annual sub will be less in a lot of the clubs charging a joining fee.


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    #104
    xgronkjabv6pcl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭xgronkjabv6pcl


    mike12 wrote: »
    You often find that the annual sub will be less in a lot of the clubs charging a joining fee.

    Do you have many examples of this?

    My very anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise...


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    #105
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Sincere Squeaking Snotty wrote:
    Do you have many examples of this?


    I think Old Conna have some such offer. Don't know of any others.


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    #106
    davegilly
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭davegilly


    Sincere Squeaking Snotty wrote: »
    Do you have many examples of this?

    My very anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise...
    Ballybunion - sub is approx €500.
    Joining is approx €8K.


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    #107
    mike12
    Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Sincere Squeaking Snotty wrote: »
    Do you have many examples of this?

    My very anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise...

    Say the island 1500 sub compared to Portmarnock links at 2500 last I heard.
    Luttrellstown 2500, think Baltray is around 1100.


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    #108
    xgronkjabv6pcl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭xgronkjabv6pcl


    davegilly wrote: »
    Ballybunion - sub is approx €500.
    Joining is approx €8K.

    American summer money obviously helps keep the sub down as well
    mike12 wrote: »
    Say the island 1500 sub compared to Portmarnock links at 2500 last I heard.
    Luttrellstown 2500, think Baltray is around 1100.

    These are somewhat elite courses mentioned thus far. I suspect they are outside the budget of many golfers. It's unsurprising when discussing courses of that calibre that their entrance fee exceeds that of their subs.

    However, with the exception of Ballybunion which has a very affordable sub, the subs mentioned above exceed the subs of the average course in Ireland.
    These subs are less than the joining fee admittedly but the subs are quite high. They're simply catering for a smaller proportion of society rather than charging a price which discourages hopping from club to club.


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    #109
    mike12
    Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Sincere Squeaking Snotty wrote: »
    These are somewhat elite courses mentioned thus far. I suspect they are outside the budget of many golfers. It's unsurprising when discussing courses of that calibre that their entrance fee exceeds that of their subs.

    However, with the exception of Ballybunion which has a very affordable sub, the subs mentioned above exceed the subs of the average course in Ireland.
    These subs are less than the joining fee admittedly but the subs are quite high. They're simply catering for a smaller proportion of society rather than charging a price which discourages hopping from club to club.

    Down the country I don't think there are joining fees outside the top of the range links courses.
    In Dublin there are joining fees on some average enough courses.
    €1500 is in or around the membership fee for most courses in Dublin that don't have a joining fee.


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    #110
    Dbu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭Dbu


    mike12 wrote: »
    Down the country I don't think there are joining fees outside the top of the range links courses.
    In Dublin there are joining fees on some average enough courses.
    €1500 is in or around the membership fee for most courses in Dublin that don't have a joining fee.
    Douglas in Cork is gone up from 7k to 9K to join this year. I believe they are taking in over 10 new members


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    #111
    mike12
    Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Dbu wrote: »
    Douglas in Cork is gone up from 7k to 9K to join this year. I believe they are taking in over 10 new members

    How does the annual sub compare to the other courses that don't charge a entry fee


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    #112
    Keano
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Thread was all about sadly the closure of another course and now it's not so let's leave it at that. Hopefully all the members get looked after in surrounding courses.


This discussion has been closed.
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