Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

History Queen · 17-11-2019 7:35pm #1

In relation to a post I saw on Voice for Teachers about the upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS. I have a few questions.

Just to be clear I am not a member of ASTI.

Am I correct in saying that the likely reaction of the Dept is to pull the 22 hours professional time per teacher per year (40 mins a week) which has led to approx 800 jobs? What will happen to the people who got these hours/jobs? Will their work be put in jeopardy?

While I hate having to do the SLARS after school, is that not one of the things the reduction in timetable was designed to cover? I cannot see how schools can cover 4/5 teachers for 2 hours at a time for SLARS in every subject. As well as the practicicality of it, it is a lot of lost tuition hours too surely?

As well as this if we are somehow allowed to do them within school hours will we be expected to account for the two hours more rigorously (ie more paper work/paper trail) to account for/justify the increased cost to the Dept of Ed?

Perhaps someone on the ASTI might be more clued in than I am, but from my perspective it seems like a battle that can't be won?

SligoBrewer · 17-11-2019 10:49pm

This is a ballot on a directive to members to go along with what the Department themselves are saying is the agreed case.
The only people that will be disgruntled are the management bodies.

The ASTI wouldn't have to do this heavy lifting on SLARs if the TUI didn't decide to undermine the agreement with the Government.

History Queen · 17-11-2019 11:20pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

This is a ballot on a directive to members to go along with what the *Department themselves are saying is the agreed case*.
The only people that will be disgruntled are the management bodies.

The ASTI wouldn't have to do this heavy lifting on SLARs if the TUI didn't decide to undermine the agreement with the Government.

Was the 2015 agreement re Slars not withdrawn by the department?I thought it was, but could stand to be corrected. If the department aren't disputing it why do the ASTI have to ballot members?

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious

Inspector Coptoor · 17-11-2019 11:27pm

If you’re a teacher with two JC subjects, the most amount of SLARs you can have is 4.

4 x 2 hours is 8 hours, not 22 hours.

It would be preposterous for the dept to pull the 22 hours for SLARs happening within school time.

It says in the Dept’s own circular that SLARs should start in school time with a limited number running outside of school time.

This ballot is to prevent some HMs in some schools, with assistance from the JMB I might add, abusing the slight ambiguity in the wording of the circular.

SLARs don’t come under professional time in my mind.

We have enough “extra” hours outside of contact time.

This is yet another thin edge of the wedge.
If is slips in now, that sLARs happen outside of school time, that status quo will remain when the inevitable Senior Cycle review with its SLARs come in to place.
We must vote in favor of this ballot.

km79 · 17-11-2019 11:33pm

A lot of the previous ballots were divisive
This is a straight forward yes
I don’t even think there has been any scaremongering which tells a tale

TheValeyard · 17-11-2019 11:37pm

Lot of schools were forcing staff to do all of SLARS outside of school hours. Think this is to force school management to behave.

Beaulieu · 17-11-2019 11:39pm

Must SLARS be 2 hours in length?

History Queen · 17-11-2019 11:44pm

According to the NCCA the Slars are part of the Professional time allocation

https://www.ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/assessment-and-reporting/slar-meetings

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR, however, I have 22 hours timetable reducation, therefore I still have 16 hours professional time to dealwith other aspects of new junior cycle. It doesn't make sense to me that the Dept would pay for cover for me to have 6 hours of Slar while also paying me for the 22 hour timetable reducation. They'd be paying on the double if you see what I mean?

I did look, but I can't find the circular where the Dept say the Slars will be covered in school time? Can someone tell me where to find it? I do remember talk about it at the time but I thought I had heard since that they are out of school time. That's certainly how they're being run in my school. If however, we can get them covered in school time I'd definitely push to do so!

SligoBrewer · 18-11-2019 12:25am

The NCCA have nothing to do with how hours are managed.

Circular 24/2016 p. 21

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Circular 15/2017 p. 26

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

I'd also suggest you join the union that is literally fighting for your conditions to be better.

TheValeyard · 18-11-2019 8:25am

History Queen wrote: »

According to the NCCA the Slars are part of the Professional time allocation

https://www.ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/assessment-and-reporting/slar-meetings

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR, however, I have 22 hours timetable reducation, therefore I still have 16 hours professional time to dealwith other aspects of new junior cycle. It doesn't make sense to me that the Dept would pay for cover for me to have 6 hours of Slar while also paying me for the 22 hour timetable reducation. They'd be paying on the double if you see what I mean?

I did look, but I can't find the circular where the Dept say the Slars will be covered in school time? Can someone tell me where to find it? I do remember talk about it at the time but I thought I had heard since that they are out of school time. That's certainly how they're being run in my school. If however, we can get them covered in school time I'd definitely push to do so!

Those reduced timetable hours should be used to prep for new junior cycle curriculum subjects.

Icsics · 18-11-2019 3:14pm

SLARs are what you make of them. They are a complete waste of time. The time allowance for the 'facilitator' could be withdrawn & that would save 2 hrs. We give enough CP hours, this must be stopped in its tracks, before the mgt bodies 'embed' it!

PureClareGold · 19-11-2019 12:23am

Icsics wrote: »

SLARs are what you make of them. They are a complete waste of time. The time allowance for the 'facilitator' could be withdrawn & that would save 2 hrs. We give enough CP hours, this must be stopped in its tracks, before the mgt bodies 'embed' it!

SLARs have been some of the best professional conversations I've had with my colleagues. Structured well they are invaluable. I agree with the original poster re the risk of professional time being taken from us. In my school management are very flexible with the timing of SLARs. In many cases they have happened within school time as teachers happen to be off or due to block supervision at Christmas tests we've been able to work it that we can do it during the school day. That flexibility will be taken away from me in my situation if we vote yes. However I do appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate as me.

Moody_mona · 19-11-2019 12:51am

PureClareGold wrote: »

SLARs have been some of the best professional conversations I've had with my colleagues. Structured well they are invaluable. I agree with the original poster re the risk of professional time being taken from us. In my school management are very flexible with the timing of SLARs. In many cases they have happened within school time as teachers happen to be off or due to block supervision at Christmas tests we've been able to work it that we can do it during the school day. That flexibility will be taken away from me in my situation if we vote yes. However I do appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate as me.

Why would it be taken away with a yes vote?

Agree that they can be valuable conversations. I just hate the ambiguity of the circular and the putting of staff vs management. We have also been lucky to avail of exam timetables and sports day etc to keep the slars within school, but our management has made no effort to timetable each department for a class off together so it's difficult to get an in school time that suits everyone.

Moody_mona · 19-11-2019 12:53am

History Queen wrote: »

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR

Have you three different subjects? Otherwise I would have thought all second year Science for example would be discussed at the one meeting?

History Queen · 19-11-2019 12:59am

Moody_mona wrote: »

Have you three different subjects? Otherwise I would have thought all second year Science for example would be discussed at the one meeting?

Sorry of course you're correct. Had a brain freeze! I have 2 slars was thinking 3 CBAs and confused myself. Apologies!

Moody_mona · 19-11-2019 12:59am

History Queen wrote: »

Sorry of course you're correct. Had a brain freeze! I still have 2 slars was thinking 3 CBAs and confused myself. Apologies!

Just wanted to make sure you weren't doing an excessive amount!

History Queen · 19-11-2019 1:02am

I think the increased amount of acronyms is messing with my head! Between JCT, CBA, TY, LCA, LCVP, SLARs etc. I think I'm having alphabet overload! Here prepping for a WSE and think it's time to go to bed and admit defeat!

Bobtheman · 19-11-2019 11:16pm

Is this what the Asti is reduced to ? Fighting over SLARS ? Meanwhile where the hell is campaign on lower paid teachers ? Where is the fight on school discipline? Where the fxxxx is a strike on any of these issues?

dg647 · 19-11-2019 11:50pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Is this what the Asti is reduced to ? Fighting over SLARS ? Meanwhile where the hell is campaign on lower paid teachers ? Where is the fight on school discipline? Where the fxxxx is a strike on any of these issues?

Enough of the membership don't want to fight/strike. Recently when we tried to fight a lot of members jumped ship to TUI and a significant number who stayed managed to get our Junior Cycle campaign halted.

Bobtheman · 20-11-2019 4:30pm

dg647 wrote: »

Enough of the membership don't want to fight/strike. Recently when we tried to fight a lot of members jumped ship to TUI and a significant number who stayed managed to get our Junior Cycle campaign halted.

And those same traitors were ejected from the TUi as a result of court action. In the end strike or assume the position and get your favorite lubricant. meaning continue to be screwed or strike
But if slars action is the height of what you can whip up - the union is a joke. The membership are a joke. I'm within ten years of retirement. I hope the cowards reap what they sow. I will be gone by the time it really gets ****

doc_17 · 20-11-2019 10:52pm

it’s such a non issue that the ASTI are balloting on. Next thing you know the Dept will define the school day. And then we’ll all be goosed.

Icsics · 21-11-2019 10:37am

doc_17 wrote: »

it’s such a non issue that the ASTI are balloting on. Next thing you know the Dept will define the school day. And then we’ll all be goosed.

I think we might be goosed anyway!

doc_17 · 21-11-2019 11:15am

Icsics wrote: »

I think we might be goosed anyway!

No need to make it worse though. Settle the pay dispute first.

acequion · 21-11-2019 6:28pm

Icsics wrote: »

I think we might be goosed anyway!

Guys,we were goosed a long time ago. And that's because not people had the balls to fight and to stick with the fight. But as the last poster said,no need to make it worse. So here's to a resounding yes!

And of course the pay issue is more important but that won't get resolved without a fight. But will members fight??

km79 · 21-11-2019 6:47pm

acequion wrote: »

Guys,we were goosed a long time ago. And that's because not people had the balls to fight and to stick with the fight. But as the last poster said,no need to make it worse. So here's to a resounding yes!

And of course the pay issue is more important but that won't get resolved without a fight. But will members fight??

not a chance
They would just leave again
Even if it themselves others are fighting for

The appetite is gone from many like myself who stood up for their colleagues only to watch those same colleagues cross the picket line and leave the union rather than fight for their own pay and conditions
Will take a long time to forget that
I’m sure a lot of staff rooms are the same

acequion · 22-11-2019 12:14am

km79 wrote: »

not a chance
They would just leave again
Even if it themselves others are fighting for

The appetite is gone from many like myself who stood up for their colleagues only to watch those same colleagues cross the picket line and leave the union rather than fight for their own pay and conditions
Will take a long time to forget that
I’m sure a lot of staff rooms are the same

My appetite has waned a lot too, but at the end of the day if you give up the fight you let the Govt win. And recent Govts have demonstrated total contempt for the teaching profession. So however betrayed we may feel by turncoat colleagues, however demoralised by constant defeats,never forget that rolling over always has and always will only make things worse for us all.

Bobtheman · 22-11-2019 8:53pm

I personally think part of the issue is the fragmentation of society. Social media. Ten different types of sexuality , Netflix etc etc
We see it in politics where our two main parties are lucky to command 55% of the vote
People now see themselves as individual consumers not part of a collective mass
Thus the Asti was a glue for teachers but many teachers now too busy posting a photo of their beautiful selves on Facebook etc etc

I know there is a cohort of young teachers who have stood with the Asti. They must not be disregarded. Unfortunately they are not large enough to tip the balance towards strike. There are also too many old timers who don't give a fxxx **** about them and unfortunately the flight of Asti members to tui has only made them more conservative.
However, there is a bit of hope. The government chronically underfunds education. Thus unlikely to send that many thought police inspectors out there or create paid department heads. These heads would likely be childless Dracula figures under 35 who would suck your blood on the way to God knows where!

doc_17 · 23-11-2019 2:17pm

Here’s a scenario....we know the gov want to end the index linking of PS pension of those who have retired to the salary of the person currently doing the job. Will that be the trade off for equal pay? And I’d say younger teachers might vote for it. Post 04 were threw under the bus by many who have since retired and many would be happy to return the favour. It would be consistent with the approach of DPER.

Bobtheman · 23-11-2019 3:36pm

Just talked to a Tesco worker who did three weeks on strike a few years back. Three weeks. He is proud of the fact they stopped eroding his conditions.
Jesus wept - when you think of the comparisons with the Asti.

2011abc · 23-11-2019 6:31pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I personally think part of the issue is the fragmentation of society. Social media. Ten different types of sexuality , Netflix etc etc
We see it in politics where our two main parties are lucky to command 55% of the vote
People now see themselves as individual consumers not part of a collective mass
Thus the Asti was a glue for teachers but many teachers now too busy posting a photo of their beautiful selves on Facebook etc etc

I know there is a cohort of young teachers who have stood with the Asti. They must not be disregarded. Unfortunately they are not large enough to tip the balance towards strike. There are also too many old timers who don't give a fxxx **** about them and unfortunately the flight of Asti members to tui has only made them more conservative.
However, there is a bit of hope. The government chronically underfunds education. Thus unlikely to send that many thought police inspectors out there or create paid department heads. These heads would likely be childless Dracula figures under 35 who would suck your blood on the way to God knows where!

I think that deserves some kind of journalism / writing award ! The last sentence may be the best thing I've read in months !!!

acequion · 23-11-2019 11:53pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Here’s a scenario....we know the gov want to end the index linking of PS pension of those who have retired to the salary of the person currently doing the job. Will that be the trade off for equal pay? And I’d say younger teachers might vote for it. Post 04 were threw under the bus by many who have since retired and many would be happy to return the favour. It would be consistent with the approach of DPER.

Nobody was thrown under any bus by their colleagues and well you know it!!

And ending the linking of pay and pensions would be just another nail in the already well nailed coffin of those currently in this profession and its retirees. Is that what you want?

We will all retire if we don't die first!! So let's all stick together for a change!!

Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

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