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General discussion, odds and ends

  • 05-05-2005 9:54am
    #1
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭


    How about a sticky topic where people can just throw out musings, share information, and allow general waffling, all without reference to a particular topic?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    Such as...
    Tony Blair, whom I have long suspected of being some form of anti-christ called the British general election for today's date.
    5th May 2005, or 5/5/5, 555!
    Perhaps he thought June 6th next year (666) would be too obvious?

    Numerologists among us please discuss!

    By the way, is the war cry of numerologists "Divide and conqeur!" :rolleyes:


  • #3
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Anybody else notice that the Christian board lives at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333? That's half of 666, the number of the beastie! Arrgggh!!


  • #4
    KCF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭KCF


    robindch wrote:
    Anybody else notice that the Christian board lives at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333? That's half of 666, the number of the beastie! Arrgggh!!
    Anyone been to Bologna? There's a wonderful renaissance church on top of a hilll near the city centre with a marble stairway curved around the hillside. It has 666 steps, apparently meticulously planned by the very ungodly architect who also got away with it as he was dead by the time the church cottoned on.

    On another note, I wouldn't be surprised if numerology was involved in the Blair's decision to go for may 5th. Tony has obviously got some pretty funny issues with the great sky-pixie - I refuse to believe there can be a rational explanation for a desire to convert _to_ catholicism in this day and age. And best not even talk about Cherie, a touch of the Nancy Reagan about her methinks.


  • #5
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    KCF wrote:
    Anyone been to Bologna? There's a wonderful renaissance church on top of a hilll near the city centre with a marble stairway curved around the hillside. It has 666 steps, apparently meticulously planned by the very ungodly architect who also got away with it as he was dead by the time the church cottoned on.

    On another note, I wouldn't be surprised if numerology was involved in the Blair's decision to go for may 5th. Tony has obviously got some pretty funny issues with the great sky-pixie - I refuse to believe there can be a rational explanation for a desire to convert _to_ catholicism in this day and age. And best not even talk about Cherie, a touch of the Nancy Reagan about her methinks.

    Blair isnt his fathers name. he was adopted and given that name. Maybe the ORIGINAL mother or father reduces to 666!


  • #6
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > Tony has obviously got some pretty funny issues with the great sky-pixie

    Did anybody read Francis Wheen's "How Mumbo-jumbo conquered the world", and the bit where he told the story about the weird Mayan rebirthing ceremony that the two elder Blairs went through in Mexico a few years back? There's a brief reference here, and a less reputable one here, but regardles, it's almost worth buying the book just for that story.

    And he seems to be a creationist too, to judge from his equivocation on the topic when he was interviewed by Jeremy Paxman the year-before-last. They were talking about that school in scotland that teaches creationism "alongside" evolution (see here).


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  • #7
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    Fantastic book!
    Potential speaker?


  • #8
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    An article in the UK Independent tells us that recent research shows that the number 666 was a typo, and that it should in fact have been 616, the numerological code for the nutty roman emperor Caligula. Some more brief docs are here and here.

    The whole divination industry must be busy rewriting everything!


  • #9
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I've put up a brief description of skepticism at the end of the Skepticism in Ireland thread and welcome any comments or suggested edits.

    ta,

    - robin.


  • #10
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    I notice our resident "I am a real skeptic" holocaust denier seems to have disappeared when people got fed up repeating his pet subject. Not alone here at skeptics but he dissappeared from all of boards.ie!

    Anyway as regards ressurecting old threads has anyone been following the Kansas vs Creationists story?

    http://thebosh.com/archives/2005/05/kansas_vs_evolu.php


  • #11
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    Tony Blair, whom I have long suspected of being some form of anti-christ called the British general election for today's date.
    5th May 2005, or 5/5/5, 555!
    Perhaps he thought June 6th next year (666) would be too obvious?
    Numerologists among us please discuss!
    haaaaa..
    yea..apparantly it signifies "change" in the form of redirection.

    <edit> actually, in hindsight its appropriate considering the Tory leader resigned and the UUP were ousted...

    *Takes the oppertunity to cuddle ISAW and Robin while on their territory*


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  • #12
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    robin wrote:
    Anybody else notice that the Christian board lives at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333? That's half of 666, the number of the beastie! Arrgggh!!
    ooh...and 333 signifies "expression".
    funny how I know all this stuff.


  • #13
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hi Solas -

    > Takes the oppertunity to cuddle ISAW and Robin while on their territory

    Good to have you drop by!

    > [555] signifies "change" in the form of redirection.
    > 333 signifies "expression".

    Interesting. Can you tell us more?


  • #14
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    Hi Robin.. I suppose ther's not much logic to it really.
    I can't say I was ever a great believer in numerology at least to the extent of applying it in everyday use, but I did pick up some information over the years.
    I don't have much to add, I just thought it was funny that the subject was brought up here. :)
    Found this earlier....feel free to disect it.
    Numerology is the study of numbers, and the occult manner in which they reflect certain aptitudes and character tendencies, Each letter has a numeric value that provides a related cosmic vibration.
    Pythagoras, the Greek mathematician who live from 569-470 B.C., is said by many to be the originator of much of what we call numerology today. The actual origins of numerology predate Pythagoras, the most popular being the very old Hebrew Kabbala.

    linky


  • #15
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    Googled "555 Numerology" and found some hilarious stuff, amongst which was
    "555...Experiencing the energy or a level of Christ Consciousness, very significant."


  • #16
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    news to me :)


  • #17
    KCF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭KCF


    Obni wrote:
    Googled "555 Numerology" and found some hilarious stuff, amongst which was
    "555...Experiencing the energy or a level of Christ Consciousness, very significant."
    Doesn't sound very pleasant. "These nails are sore, ow these thorns are cutting me....."


  • #18
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    solas wrote:
    [snip]
    I just thought it was funny that the subject was brought up here. :)
    Found this earlier....feel free to disect it.
    [Pythagoras bit snipped]

    linky

    Yeah. Hello Solas. Coming to see what I do here eh? :)

    Pythagoras believed everything was related to numbers. While it is argument from authority to call on the ghost of Pythagoras and while the Ancient Triumvirate of Socrates who taught (thought?) Plato who taught Aristotle who thaught Alexander The Great (that last one wasnt really a Philosopher I just put him in because it shows where a good solid grounding in education might get you - beware college philosophy professors you are in danger of creating someone who might conquer the known world. Maybe that last comment is more suited to the Irish Jedi council on the Sith topic.)

    The reason i put in the "Triumvirate" is because they have a markedly higher level of infulence on contemporary thought and theory in education and philosophy (including the philosophy of science and mathematics).


    Anyway I was always struck that the three of them lived at the same time (but then again one might also be artificially highlighting the problem space after all Pythagoras lived four centuries earlier and heliocentrics (the peripethetic philosophers who followed Aristotle were NOT such and were strongly geostatic and geocentric) such as Thales didnt live in the same time. Then again he did live AROUND the same time - which leads me back into fudging the problem space.

    The other point is a basic point about HPS (history and spilosophy of Science) which I have mentioned elsewhere on boarde.ie. Actually on solas' paranormal board I think is a possibility!

    The question is whether mathematics (or lets just say numbers) can exist independently of humainity. It goes a bit like Mach's principle. Some argue Mathematics is not alone a formal system but the most stand alone formal system ever developed. Others argue that numbers are a creation of peoples minds. Numerologists fall between these two stools. They are instrumentalist or absolutist in the worship of numbers as stand alone entities but they are also relativist and socially constructivist in the contextual interpretation of the signifignance of numbers.


  • #19
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    ISAW wrote:
    Yeah. Hello Solas. Coming to see what I do here eh?
    yep, checking out the swagger. ;)
    ISAW wrote:
    The question is whether mathematics (or lets just say numbers) can exist independently of humainity. It goes a bit like Mach's principle. Some argue Mathematics is not alone a formal system but the most stand alone formal system ever developed. Others argue that numbers are a creation of peoples minds. Numerologists fall between these two stools. They are instrumentalist or absolutist in the worship of numbers as stand alone entities but they are also relativist and socially constructivist in the contextual interpretation of the signifignance of numbers.
    I recall a similar discussion in philosphy some time back. I can't say I have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, only what I recall from leaving cert standard art class which breifly touched on the significance of the golden ratio, so I tend to sway on the side of those who consider mathematics (numbers) can exist independantly of humanity.
    So..where do you stand?


  • #20
    KCF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭KCF


    I wonder what brand of nonsense purveyor shall wonder into this curious place next. Any speculations? We haven't had an astral gazer in my time, I quite fancy one of them.

    * whistles in the wind *


  • #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > leaving cert standard art class which breifly touched
    > on the significance of the golden ratio

    Ahhh... ф (in memoriam Phidias, the ancient greek sculptor), value is (1+sqrt(5))/2. What a pity that ф isn't included in the leaving cert maths course as well! Like an immortal, high-speed mole, ф just keeps popping up everywhere -- from Pythagoras to the design of the Athenian Acropolis and the Caryatid arch, the works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo, the architects of Chartres, the painters Rembrandt, Turner, Seurat and Dali; in the physical world, it describe properties of hydrogen, the breeding of rabbits, the shape of seashells and more; then, there's its ubiquity within mathematics itself, from plane geometry to Pascal's triangle, Fibonacci's sequence, continued fractions and nested radicals, and coolest of all, it sees action in certain ratios present in Penrose's aperiodic tesselations (further mathematical properties of this endlessly entertaining number live here and many other places, and if yiz're still alive at this point, I can recommend HE Huntley's excellent 200-page ode to ф, The Divine Porportion).

    But each integer having its own "cosmic vibration"? Nahh...


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  • #22
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    This just in -- which writes that US comedian Eugene Mirman rang United American Technologies (according to the speaker, a "Christian-based telephone company"), and received, amongst much else, the following snippets:

    > Mirman: I mean, basically, God hates AT&T, MCI, and Verizon?
    > United American Technologies: Yes.

    > Mirman: MCI has hardcore child pornography?
    > United American Technologies: Yes, they are. They have
    > a pedophile Web site for men who love boys. It's a Montréal
    > based Web site....
    > Mirman: And so MCI basically has a child pornography ring?
    > United American Technologies: That's correct.
    > Mirman: What about the others? What does Verizon do?
    > United American Technologies: Okay. Verizon, what they do is
    > they train their employees to accept the gay and lesbian lifestyle.

    Buddha only knows whether these are genuine, but given that some US chemists are now refusing to dispense oral contraception because of the chemists own 'moral objections' (see here), it's hardly much of a leap from there, to the above. The full (MP3) recordings are here and here.


  • #23
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    KCF wrote:
    I wonder what brand of nonsense purveyor shall wonder into this curious place next. Any speculations? We haven't had an astral gazer in my time, I quite fancy one of them.
    what starsign are you?
    robin wrote:
    Ahhh... ф (in memoriam Phidias, the ancient greek sculptor), value is (1+sqrt(5))/2. What a pity that ф isn't included in the leaving cert maths course as well! Like an immortal, high-speed mole, ф just keeps popping up everywhere -- from Pythagoras to the design of the Athenian Acropolis and the Caryatid arch, the works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo, the architects of Chartres, the painters Rembrandt, Turner, Seurat and Dali; in the physical world, it describe properties of hydrogen, the breeding of rabbits, the shape of seashells and more; then, there's its ubiquity within mathematics itself, from plane geometry to Pascal's triangle, Fibonacci's sequence, continued fractions and nested radicals, and coolest of all, it sees action in certain ratios present in Penrose's aperiodic tesselations (further mathematical properties of this endlessly entertaining number live here and many other places, and if yiz're still alive at this point, I can recommend HE Huntley's excellent 200-page ode to ф, The Divine Porportion).
    phi...that was poetic Robin.


  • #24
    KCF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭KCF


    solas wrote:
    what starsign are you?
    Libra. Couldn't you tell?


  • #25
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    KCF wrote:
    Libra. Couldn't you tell?
    neh..didn't bring my crystal ball with me today. But if its any consolation I'm libra too.


  • #26
    bus77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭bus77


    According to Google, Beneficial foods for Librians are
    Strawberries and plums.....


  • #27
    solas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    kcf ...
    A very special Libran

    kcf ... doesn't know the meaning of the word 'enough.' It's not that kcf is greedy or that he lacks self-discipline - far from it. kcf goes out of his way to share, care and be fair. That's why he never quite knows when to stop. To draw the line you have to be a little insensitive. How, precisely, should it be measured? With a magnifying glass? Or with a microscope? kcf ... is extremely sensitive and keenly perceptive. He is a Libran, born under the sign of the scale. kcf knows in his heart that no matter how meticulously you ever weigh anything in this world you can always reach a different conclusion if you apply a more refined set of measurements. kcf knows that those refinements are infinite. Hours have minutes, minutes have seconds. Seconds have nanoseconds. No wonder kcf ... is never sure what time it is!

    Some people are prone to assume that kcf has his head in the clouds. They think that he lives in a world of his own full of lofty ideas and complex theories. Other people have the temerity to watch kcf at work in this way and to suppose that kcf is indecisive! Where on earth do they get that idea from? Actually kcf is one of the most decisive people on the face of the planet. he absolutely, definitely knows what he wants but he only knows it from one second to the next. To the untrained eye this appears to be an inconsistency. What they fail to see are the countless nanoseconds during which kcf's sense of purpose is solid as a rock. kcf, though, knows what people are thinking and so, to keep them on their toes he makes a point of declaring his intentions loudly and clearly. he makes quite sure that these brave statements never differ from day to day. That fools most of the people most of the time.
    :)


  • #28
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    KCF wrote:
    I wonder what brand of nonsense purveyor shall wonder into this curious place next. Any speculations? We haven't had an astral gazer in my time, I quite fancy one of them.

    * whistles in the wind *

    Yeah. In relation to the Britney Spears thread and what is popular one might be led to the conclusion that science isn't. One would be wrong! In fact pseudo science dresses itself up as science. Historical examples like Pythagoras or Kepler are ofter used in an attempt to link numerology to mathematics or astrology to astronomy. This again is an attempt to convey some authority to pseudo science.

    But there are aslo many modern examples. The use of scientific sounding jargon is one. In the above example "vibrations" stands out. the difference between this and modern science is that what a "vibration" is is strictly defined. So is "frequency". It is not some sort of magic chi "energy" (another term which does NOT mean the capacity to do work i.e. exert force over time in a certain direction, force time and direction being already defined).

    Waves and "harmonics" are another term used. Anyone ever tried the chomskyvator? or is it the crapolabot:
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/+AH4-jlawler/foggy.faq.html#how

    or one could try these:
    http://www.canadiancontent.net/dir/Top/Recreation/Humor/Computer/Internet/Web_Filters/

    Then again you have to have something reasonable to begin with!


  • #29
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    Traffic on the board has been very quiet of late, but now that Turley has returned (welcome back!) things may liven up again. It would seem that it is a lot easier to compile posts against a proclaimed opinion, than to generate meaningful discussion on topics of interest to skeptics. Of the three main objectives of the ISS, to promote science, promote critical thinking, and challenge extraordinary claims, only the third one is pursued with any vigour on the board. This is not a failing peculiar to the members of ISS. To promote science requires a greater effort than to attack some pseudo-science. To promote critical thinking requires a greater effort than to simply criticize or point out the flaws in someone else's thinking. Remove posts by, or that take a stance against, Turley, Eriugena, Solas, etc..., and you have a much reduced crop of topics. Now, I'm not being critical of anyone, except perhaps myself. I have found it very difficult to come up with a topic to throw open to discussion. Or, rather than finding it difficult, I find myself reluctant.
    To compose a declarative post on a topic with definite scientific content requires sound knowledge of the topic, an opinion based on that accumulated knowledge that may be of interest to others, possibly some credentials or evidence to support your case, and the confidence to post it on the board. As I'm afraid the only topic on which I could meet these criteria is industrial automation (yawn) I'm going to have to start posting some questions instead. Why 'have to'? Well because like many skeptic boards on the web, there is a danger in becoming a sounding board for those who consider a skeptic board a challenge rather than an opportunity the promotion of positive aspects of skepticism. I don't want to be a member of the eternal nay-sayers.

    The challenge now shall be to find questions that sound considered and intelligent, rather than exposing the gulfs in my knowledge! :rolleyes:

    I'll try to come up with something for tomorrow (Wed 18th).


  • #30
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Obni wrote:
    Traffic on the board has been very quiet of late, but now that Turley has returned (welcome back!) things may liven up again.[snip]

    I would prefer not to continually be posting a retort to conspiracy theory.
    Remove posts by, or that take a stance against, Turley, Eriugena, Solas, etc..., and you have a much reduced crop of topics. Now, I'm not being critical of anyone, except perhaps myself. I have found it very difficult to come up with a topic to throw open to discussion. Or, rather than finding it difficult, I find myself reluctant.

    Your argument is self defeating. Skeptics are not about to post claims about paranormal or other events when they are not aware of any supporting evidence are they?


    I posted something on clustered water. I havent yet received one single reply!
    The challenge now shall be to find questions that sound considered and intelligent, rather than exposing the gulfs in my knowledge! :rolleyes:

    I'll try to come up with something for tomorrow (Wed 18th).


    How about a critique of the "say no to DHMO" people or their counterparts? I think they have produced a wonderfully presented case with their "DHMO the silent killer" stance. I can't find any logical errors or scientific errors in their argument. The whole cultural signifigance of the campaign runs very deep and one can argue provokes a debate on the value of science and scepticism.

    Here is a link
    http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html


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  • #31
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > promote science, promote critical thinking, and challenge
    > extraordinary claims, only the third one is pursued with
    > any vigour on the board.

    ...possibly because the first two are not relevant to the board itself and really must happen outside this closed world -- how many punters will actually actively seek out a skeptic board here, or anywhere else?

    Speaking of which, what's the latest on the periodical column idea? Has anybody moved forward with that?

    > I have found it very difficult to come up with a topic to
    > throw open to discussion.

    Posts on this board roughly fall into one of two camps: non-members (usually, I believe) seeking discussion about some contentious issue, and members swapping ideas about skepticism itself.

    In the first camp, it's quite common for some advocate of a contentious topic to put in much time and effort in researching and writing about something, regardless of how genuinely useful it is, or how relevant it is to skepticism. In these cases, the conversation tends to be unending and creates far more heat than light.

    In the second camp, conversation is more limited, mostly because the good folks posting are usually horizontally relaxed about whatever's up for discussion, and most will probably agree with the original poster anyway! That's why a 'general discussion' topic is useful (which reminds me -- I'll 'sticky' this, so it stays at the top of the list, regardless of activity), as it allows people just to throw out titbits of info which others might find interesting, without actually wanting to start a new thread.

    And DHMO? hmm... who's on for shelling out for a fullpager in the Irish Times, warning of the closing threat? A "major component of Acid Rain" indeed :)

    - robin.


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