Replacing a Triton T90XR

[Deleted User] · 24-09-2020 4:37pm #1

It looks like my Triton is on its last legs. Only getting medium heat unless I crank it all the way up which means pressure is shockingly bad. If its that bad in summer, winter will be a non runner

Anyway, I can replace it directly with a T90SR BUT I am curious about changing how its fed.

I have solar panels installed and they have their own hot tank beside the main tank in the attic. Is it possible to install a pumped shower in the existing space and change the feed in the attic and would it be worth it for better pressure? For example, installing a Trion T90Z instead and get the plumber to change over in the attic?

Sleeper12 · 24-09-2020 7:15pm

I'm a little confused about exactly what you want to do.

If you want to use the hot water from the solar system then you will need to install something like the Triton Novel SR. This is a power shower. It basically pumps out the hot water from the tank. The Triton T90 won't work because it only has a cold feed. You will need a hot & cold feed or else you won't be able to control the temperature

[Deleted User] · 25-09-2020 1:57am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm a little confused about exactly what you want to do.

If you want to use the hot water from the solar system then you will need to install something like the Triton Novel SR. This is a power shower. It basically pumps out the hot water from the tank. The Triton T90 won't work because it only has a cold feed. You will need a hot & cold feed or else you won't be able to control the temperature

Yes it looks like I will be going with the t90sr as a direct replacement but I was curious to see if it was a big or little job in changing the pipes so I could use the hot water in a pumped shower to get the full benefit of the solar panels

Sleeper12 · 25-09-2020 8:37am

Niner leprauchan wrote:

Yes it looks like I will be going with the t90sr as a direct replacement but I was curious to see if it was a big or little job in changing the pipes so I could use the hot water in a pumped shower to get the full benefit of the solar panels

It depends on the plumbing layout of the house. To make use of the hot water you will need to have a hot & cold feed going into a mixer /power shower. Cold only or hot only won't work as you need both to adjust the temperature

[Deleted User] · 25-09-2020 10:20am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It depends on the plumbing layout of the house. To make use of the hot water you will need to have a hot & cold feed going into a mixer /power shower. Cold only or hot only won't work as you need both to adjust the temperature

cheers. Its kinda hard to guess without seeing the layout. It was just that both tanks are within a few feet of each other and the pipes between them so I was hoping that they could be connected up in the attic.

Ive bought the SR anyway for a straight swap

Thanks for answering

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 3:01pm

Makes no sense to pay for electric shower if you got either solar hot water or central heating unless there are pluming issues preventing installation.

Pumped only showers are great and use existing hot water.

Sleeper12 · 26-09-2020 4:40pm

Mad_Lad wrote:

Makes no sense to pay for electric shower if you got either solar hot water or central heating unless there are pluming issues preventing installation.

Totally agree power shower is much more pleasant than an electric shower but just to clarify, Electric shower is cheaper than water heated by gas or oil. Electric shower is A energy rated and is 100 percent efficient. You don't get free hot water while the heating is on. You do actually pay for the gas or oil used to heat the water while the heating is running

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 4:46pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Totally agree power shower is much more pleasant than an electric shower but just to clarify, Electric shower is cheaper than water heated by gas or oil. Electric shower is A energy rated and is 100 percent efficient. You don't get free hot water while the heating is on. You do actually pay for the gas or oil used to heat the water while the heating is running

No that wasn't my point, my point is that it makes no sense when someone has central heating or solar hot water heating to have a 9 Kw shower that heats the water when the copper cylinder is full of hot water.

Sleeper12 · 26-09-2020 5:03pm

Mad_Lad wrote:

No that wasn't my point, my point is that it makes no sense when someone has central heating or solar hot water heating to have a 9 Kw shower that heats the water when the copper cylinder is full of hot water.

Solar heated water is free but water heated by central heating isn't. Most heating systems have a motorised valve. This valve is only turned on when you want to heat hot water. Only old wasteful heating systems don't have a valve on the cylinder. It costs far more to heat this water than the same amount of water using an electric shower.

After solar, electric shower is the cheapest way to heat water for a shower.

John.G · 26-09-2020 6:14pm

Electric shower IMO is definitely the way to go in the summer, in the winter time though I would think the oil/gas wins pretty easily as the energy losses are spread over the whole thermal demand from both the DHW & the CH requirements.

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 6:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Makes no sense to pay for electric shower if you got either solar hot water or central heating unless there are pluming issues preventing installation.

Pumped only showers are great and use existing hot water.

yes but the house was altered prior to buying and there is now no original pipes in the walls or under the floor so to change the electric shower and use the solar heated water would require ripping the place apart and new pipes. It would be years paying back the cost

Im considering an ensuite so will get a power shower than uses the free water then anyway

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 8:23pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

yes but the house was altered prior to buying and there is now no original pipes in the walls or under the floor so to change the electric shower and use the solar heated water would require ripping the place apart and new pipes. It would be years paying back the cost

Im considering an ensuite so will get a power shower than uses the free water then anyway

Yean power shower is the only way to go really if you're considering an ensuite and you'll never look back, you will appreciate the ensuite and you electric bill will be lower.

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 8:26pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Solar heated water is free but water heated by central heating isn't. Most heating systems have a motorised valve. This valve is only turned on when you want to heat hot water. Only old wasteful heating systems don't have a valve on the cylinder. It costs far more to heat this water than the same amount of water using an electric shower.

After solar, electric shower is the cheapest way to heat water for a shower.

Water heated by solar needs pump does it not ? not 100% free. Yes probably small cost but still.

Central heating isn't free no but everyone with central heating has a tank full of hot water all day every day so it makes no sense to pay 17-22 cent per Kwh to heat the water with a 9 Kw electric shower.

Summer is different, but Winter is far longer in Ireland. We use the immersion on night rate and to be honest it's just enough for 2 showers and some hot water during the day + we got night rate electricity.

Wearb · 26-09-2020 8:58pm

If half a cylinder of hot water is enough daily, it's wasteful to heat it all.

Just because it's heated at the same time as the rads doesn't mean it's heated for free. Each litre cost extra money to heat.

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 9:10pm

Wearb wrote: »

If half a cylinder of hot water is enough daily, it's wasteful to heat it all.

Just because it's heated at the same time as the rads doesn't mean it's heated for free. Each litre cost extra money to heat.

It doesn't matter because the heating is on heating the radiators so I doubt water going through the cylinder is a big deal.

Most hot water cylinders are hot most of the time anyway, they don't take much to heat when the hearing is on.

When the hot water cylinder is hot it makes no sense to use 9 Kw of electricity to hear cold water, leaving hot water wasted in the hot water cylinder.

Wearb · 26-09-2020 9:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn't matter because the heating is on heating the radiators so I doubt water going through the cylinder is a big deal.

Most hot water cylinders are hot most of the time anyway, they don't take much to heat when the hearing is on.

When the hot water cylinder is hot it makes no sense to use 9 Kw of electricity to hear cold water, leaving hot water wasted in the hot water cylinder.

I don't think I can explain it any simpler than I have.

I notice some people have a similar problem understanding that a boiler stove will cost more to run than a dry stove.

John.G · 26-09-2020 9:52pm

Energy required to heat 150 litres of water from 10C to 60C, 150*(60-10)/860, equals 8.7 kwh.
Energy input from electric immersion @ 100% efficiency is 8.7/1.0, 8.7 kwh.
Energy input from gas/oil boiler @80% efficiency is 8.7/0.8, 10.88 kwh.

The above might provide enough hot water for a family of 4/6 but it doesn't matter, it still requires energy to heat the water where ever it comes from, cost is a different story.

[Deleted User] · 26-09-2020 10:03pm

Lads, my heating is on, the cylinder is full of hot water, why would I use a 9 Kw electric shower to heat water that's already in the cylinder ffs ?

bobbyy gee · 26-09-2020 10:14pm

might be cheaper to buy new one

https://www.screwfix.ie/c/bathrooms-kitchens/showers/cat820272?showerproducttype=electric#category=cat820272&showerproducttype=electric&sort_by=price

JoChervil · 26-09-2020 10:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads, my heating is on, the cylinder is full of hot water, why would I use a 9 Kw electric shower to heat water that's already in the cylinder ffs ?

Because when you use hot water stored in a cylinder the heating system then needs to heat water to a level set by thermostat. So practically you heat the water additionally for your shower.

Also I have the heating on from 8am till 11pm all the time, no matter, if it is winter or summer. Thermostat simply doesn't allow to heat the water in the summer. But the water temperature for me is not hot enough to have the shower I like.

For me power shower is the best solution even if you have additional heating system.

JoChervil · 26-09-2020 10:46pm

The idea of OP of using water from solar system only would make sense, if water heated in this way is never hot enough. Some people have it all the time luke warm. So then it would make sense because water from solar system would go to a cold feed and a power shower would only slightly warm it up.

But it can't be done, if water is hot from this system because it would be too hot for a shower.

bobbyy gee · 26-09-2020 10:49pm

JoChervil wrote: »

The idea of OP of using water from solar system only would make sense, if water heated in this way is never hot enough. Some people have it all the time luke warm. So then it would make sense because water from solar system would go to a cold feed and a power shower would only slightly warm it up.

But it can't be done, if water is hot from this system because it would be too hot for a shower.

water from solar gets very hot except in winter when you use electric shower

John.G · 26-09-2020 10:56pm

Its a bit unusual to have just a dedicated solar heated cylinder, the normal would be a twin coil cylinder with the solar coil in the bottom which will supply all/most of the HW requirements in the summer, a oil/gas fired coil heating the upper "1/2" of the cylinder and a dual immersion. Even in the winter the solar will still contribute a reasonable amount of energy and is then topped up by the gas/oi coil or the immersion.

Sleeper12 · 27-09-2020 8:59am

Niner leprauchan wrote:

Im considering an ensuite so will get a power shower than uses the free water then anyway

It does seem nuts not to be able to use the free solar water.

Depending on the layout of the house I'd imagine that you could get a shower installation company to install a Triton novel SR silent running thermostatic power shower for under 700 euro. They should be able to drop cable and pipes inside the wall without damage to the tiles for this price

John.G · 27-09-2020 9:13am

The OP might post a few pics of his solar cylinder & pipework. I have read of installs where a very small immersion type "cylinder" manufactured by Willis is installed adjacent to the main HW cylinder and heats/circulates the water by thermosyphon. I think its called the Willis Solarsyphon or words to that effect.

Sleeper12 · 27-09-2020 9:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads, my heating is on, the cylinder is full of hot water, why would I use a 9 Kw electric shower to heat water that's already in the cylinder ffs ?

Mad Lad no offense but you are on a plumbing forum telling plumbers that they are wrong.

Just because you have an old fashioned & badly plumbed system, by modern standards, doesn't mean you are correct. You can save a small fortune by getting a motorized valve fitted on your cylinder. This with modern controls & you will be able to use your gas/oil to heat water only, heat only, upstails only, downstairs only. You don't need to be looking for ways to use up the water you are heating needlessly.

John can crunch the numbers far better than I can but a 5 minute shower is free if water is heated by solar. Next comes the 9KW electric shower, next comes electric immersion Unless the gas boiler is very close to the cylinder. Next comes combi boiler & believe it of not gas & oil heated water comes last. In other words gas & oil is the most expensive way to heat water for a shower.

Above are the facts but then comes personal choice & this is where I totally agree with you. For a showering experience there is no comparison between an electric shower & a power shower. I have both. 9KW electric shower downstairs that puts out 3 to 4.5 litres of warm water per minute. We use this when we are stuck a few times per year & to rinse off the dogs when they roll in mud while out for a walk. My shower upstairs costs a small fortune to run no matter how I heat the water because I have a rain head on a 3 bar pump. This puts out over20 litres of hot water per minute. It's a joy BUT a 10 minute shower will use almost a full tank of hot water.

[Deleted User] · 27-09-2020 6:05pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Mad Lad no offense but you are on a plumbing forum telling plumbers that they are wrong.

Just because you have an old fashioned & badly plumbed system, by modern standards, doesn't mean you are correct. You can save a small fortune by getting a motorized valve fitted on your cylinder. This with modern controls & you will be able to use your gas/oil to heat water only, heat only, upstails only, downstairs only. You don't need to be looking for ways to use up the water you are heating needlessly.

John can crunch the numbers far better than I can but a 5 minute shower is free if water is heated by solar. Next comes the 9KW electric shower, next comes electric immersion Unless the gas boiler is very close to the cylinder. Next comes combi boiler & believe it of not gas & oil heated water comes last. In other words gas & oil is the most expensive way to heat water for a shower.

Above are the facts but then comes personal choice & this is where I totally agree with you. For a showering experience there is no comparison between an electric shower & a power shower. I have both. 9KW electric shower downstairs that puts out 3 to 4.5 litres of warm water per minute. We use this when we are stuck a few times per year & to rinse off the dogs when they roll in mud while out for a walk. My shower upstairs costs a small fortune to run no matter how I heat the water because I have a rain head on a 3 bar pump. This puts out over20 litres of hot water per minute. It's a joy BUT a 10 minute shower will use almost a full tank of hot water.

So you're saying heating water directly via electric shower is cheaper @17-21 C/Kwh vs oil at current cheap prices ?

So what happens the water in the copper cylinder when the heating is on, you're saying it's best to leave it cold ? and use electricity at 17-21 c/kwh ?

Sleeper12 · 27-09-2020 6:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're saying heating water directly via electric shower is cheaper @17-21 C/Kwh vs oil at current cheap prices ?

So what happens the water in the copper cylinder when the heating is on, you're saying it's best to leave it cold ? and use electricity at 17-21 c/kwh ?

Using gas & oil to heat water is only 80 percent (or less) Efficient. the further away from your hot water cylinder the less efficient it is. Electric is 100 percent efficient. An electric shower is even more efficient than the element in the hot water cylinder as you only heat the water as you need & not trying to keep it warm for hour at a time. There is no wasted hot water at the end of the shower

It's a plumbing forum. People may read this for years to come. It's important to clarify misleading claims. All I said at the beginning was that you don't have free hot water from your having your heating on. The coil inside your hot water cylinder is like an extra rad. You wouldn't say that having a hot rad in the front room is "free" because you have the heating on in the rest of the house. You are paying to heat another rad, inside the cylinder, to heat the water when the heating is on. I heat water myself this way sometimes. I also use electric immersion at times. Nothing wrong with using your gas or oil to heat water. The point I tried to clarify is that it's never free. Heating on or not it's not free.

[Deleted User] · 27-09-2020 9:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads, my heating is on, the cylinder is full of hot water, why would I use a 9 Kw electric shower to heat water that's already in the cylinder ffs ?

because that hot water is replaced with cold water which your heating will now burn fuel heating. I may not use the hot water from the solar panels and yes, thats a waste as that is free BUT by not using my heating to heat that water when my house is being heated has resulted in a smaller heating bill. A noticeable difference in fact

I really dont get the issue understanding this.

Sleeper12 · 28-09-2020 9:03am

Niner, I do agree with Mad Lad about the solar water. You should look into putting in a power shower to make use of the free solar heated water as soon as funds allow. It will pay for itself in a few years. I'm sort of gobsmacked that a company would install solar panels when the home doesn't have the equipment to use the water.

John.G · 28-09-2020 9:13am

There must be some way of combining this with the normal cylinder if fitted, a few pictures would reveal all. Also the solar hot water is surely being used for something now?.

Replacing a Triton T90XR

Comments