Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Yeah_Right · 07-12-2019 1:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Not enough questions asked of nucifora and the IRFUs oversight in my opinion.

Where was the communications with the players about the stress of intensity levels, degree of detail accumulation, game plan issues.

Who watches the watch men?

Was it simply a case of Joe having gotten Ireland to such heights that there was no one in a position to say whoa, stall the ball, this may not be the right way to go with things?? As they could never have been in a similar position before...

A case of icarus.....

Outstanding. I truly appreciate someone being able to bring Greek mythology into a discussion on the Irish rugby team. Love it.

My 2 cents, I think a mental skills coach would have helped the players. They seemed to be lacking in confidence and afraid to make a decision. When things went wrong they it looked like they were trying to make up for it rather than moving on.

Felix Jones is God. · 07-12-2019 2:15pm

Genuine question, do we have someone on staff that does what my namesake did for South Africa?

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 2:23pm

bilston wrote: »

In the same way coaches have to judge whether players will react better to a carrot or stick approach, players have to make the same judgements on coaches. Maybe Kidney was more open to letting Kearney speak out in 2008/09 than Schmidt would have have been in 2019.

I reckon this has all been blown out of proportion anyway by the media.

Although...interestingly I did hear a story recently about a retired international who would have played in the early years of the Schmidt regime speak in not particularly favourable terms about Joe. I was surprised to hear it actually. But then that's just hearsay and the player in question wasn't involved in the 2019 WC.

What story and what player?

Clegg · 07-12-2019 4:17pm

Think this is the second week in a row where I'm saying VdF is currently the best player in the country. He's playing out of his skin. Workrate in the tackle, making turnover, hitting guys behind the gainline. He's brilliant.

And week by week I'm more convinced that Ronan Kelleher is good enough to start in the Six Nations. He's made the step up to European level effortlessly. Larmour needs to start at 15 as well. Position still needs work, but as an attacking outlet from 15 he's peerless.

thomond2006 · 07-12-2019 4:22pm

There's not much word on Dave Kilcoyne's availability. He'll need to return shortly to get a run of games to push for a starting role.

Interested Observer · 07-12-2019 4:41pm

Clegg wrote: »

Think this is the second week in a row where I'm saying VdF is currently the best player in the country. He's playing out of his skin. Workrate in the tackle, making turnover, hitting guys behind the gainline. He's brilliant.

He's been brilliant against Lyon and again today, but I have to say I still can't remember him influencing a game at international level like he does at European level. Might be to do with the makeup of the relative backrows but I think it's imperative for Farrell to get him playing like that in green.

And week by week I'm more convinced that Ronan Kelleher is good enough to start in the Six Nations. He's made the step up to European level effortlessly. Larmour needs to start at 15 as well. Position still needs work, but as an attacking outlet from 15 he's peerless.

Certainly, all this. His positioning is fine, don't believe everything you read.

Dubinusa · 07-12-2019 4:51pm

I think if VDF is used more as a link man or allowed out in the wider channels he's brilliant. Looks completely different playing for Leinster than for Ireland. Maybe Farrell will use him differently.

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 5:20pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Outstanding. I truly appreciate someone being able to bring Greek mythology into a discussion on the Irish rugby team. Love it.

My 2 cents, I think a mental skills coach would have helped the players. They seemed to be lacking in confidence and afraid to make a decision. When things went wrong they it looked like they were trying to make up for it rather than moving on.

The big question is what sort of long term damage has Schmidt inflicted on the Irish rugby players.

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 5:41pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

The big question is what sort of long term damage has Schmidt inflicted on the Irish rugby players.

What is the point of utter nonsense like this? And why are the players getting such a free ride from so many here? They have responsibilities too. From what Best is saying the issues started with the players. The coaches tried to force the issue but only made it worse. Then the players didnt do enough to let the coaches know that they were only making it worse. The players are adults, not kids.

Faugheen · 07-12-2019 5:44pm

I’m absolutely loving VDF shutting everyone up since the World Cup.

Best player in the island by a distance.

troll - banned.

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 5:45pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What is the point of utter nonsense like this? And why are the players getting such a free ride from so many here? They have responsibilities too. From what Best is saying the issues started with the players. The coaches tried to force the issue but only made it worse. Then the players didnt do enough to let the coaches know that they were only making it worse. The players are adults, not kids.

Normally you would be correct but after years of the Schmidt regime with its obsessive diktats they’ve been worn down into basic automon players. The 12 week blast of Schmidt intensity before and during the World Cup finished them altogether.

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 5:50pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Normally you would be correct but after years of the Schmidt regime with its obsessive diktats they’ve been worn down into basic automon players. The 12 week blast of Schmidt intensity before and during the World Cup finished them altogether.

Obviously nobody told the Leinster contingent that today.

salmocab · 07-12-2019 5:52pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Normally you would be correct but after years of the Schmidt regime with its obsessive diktats they’ve been worn down into basic automon players. The 12 week blast of Schmidt intensity before and during the World Cup finished them altogether.

Ah the Leinster lads are hardly playing like automatons, I doubt the others are too. Whatever was going on doesn’t seem to affect them outside at their provinces.

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 5:54pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Normally you would be correct but after years of the Schmidt regime with its obsessive diktats they’ve been worn down into basic automon players. The 12 week blast of Schmidt intensity before and during the World Cup finished them altogether.

Funny because majority of squad was Leinster and they are ripping it up

Munster players have continued form with Conway playing great....same can be said of ulster/Connacht

Yes some had drop in form but nothing abnormal

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 5:56pm

salmocab wrote: »

Ah the Leinster lads are hardly playing like automatons, I doubt the others are too. Whatever was going on doesn’t seem to affect them outside at their provinces.

Not for Leinster. Obvious Cullen and Lancaster are able to counter the Schmidt effect.

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 6:06pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Not for Leinster. Obvious Cullen and Lancaster are able to counter the Schmidt effect.

And the other Irish players who are playing well at their own provinces?

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 6:09pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

And the other Irish players who are playing well at their own provinces?

Again any provincial coach will of course have a positive impact once players leave the control of the Irish camp. The players essentially have had to be rinsed of Schmidt when they go back to their provinces

Clegg · 07-12-2019 8:49pm

Some very good performances this weekend from an Irish perspective. Of the younger contingent Kelleher, Larmour and Doris are really pushing for inclusion. Kelleher and Larmour for starting positions and Doris for the bench. I also think Toner has brought himself back into contention with his recent performances. Our maul is such a weapon when he is on the pitch. Enough has been said about VDF already. Best player in the country. Cooney and McCloskey went well for Ulster and I think Earls and Conway were the pick of the bunch for Munster.

I think we're at the stage where we can't say Murray is just out of form. It's been over a year since he's last had a sustained run of good performances. He's an average player these days and he shouldn't start for Ireland come the Six Nations. I'm also worried about the form of Stockdale. He's not playing poorly, but he hasn't hit the heights of the 2017/2018 season in quite a while.

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 9:57pm

There was only 1 way Stockdales form could have gone after 17/18 in fairness.

OldRio · 07-12-2019 10:01pm

Toner IMHO is playing some wonderful stuff. Clever player.

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 10:32pm

Yeah Toner has been going well the last few weeks. Has to be back in the frame for the 6Ns.

accensi0n · 07-12-2019 10:41pm

Toner looked good today. But thought he was a bit poor last week against Glasgow, no? Admittedly though I wasn't paying a lot of attention to him.

shootermacg · 07-12-2019 10:52pm

So a back-stabbing for without a doubt the greatest Irish Rugby Manager we've ever had. So that's Joe and Gatty that got stabbed in the back. This country (at least in rugby) may be gaining a reputation for being a bunch of snakes.

Someone call St Paddy! The snakes are back in force!

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 11:02pm

shootermacg wrote: »

So a back-stabbing for without a doubt the greatest Irish Rugby Manager we've ever had. So that's Joe and Gatty that got stabbed in the back. This country (at least in rugby) may be gaining a reputation for being a bunch of snakes.

Someone call St Paddy! The snakes are back in force!

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 11:07pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Professor Genius wrote: »

Given the level of deference shown to Joe (just look at this forum) I would say no one thought they were in a position to question him. IRFU need to be very careful never to allow such control freakery to be present in future head coaches

Professor Genius wrote: »

Joe stymied them completely . It was impossible to overcome his micro management by all accounts. Disaster by process

Professor Genius wrote: »

Schmidt now being called out as the busted flush and charlatan he allowed himself to develop into in 2019. He’s been scalded out of it the past few weeks

Going back further

Professor Genius wrote: »

I think a lot of people feel duped into the “In Joe we Trust” mantra and are now too embarrassed to admit his failings

Professor Genius wrote: »

Ultimately a failure. Some results yes. Slam and 6 nations championships largely due to very weak French teams and mixed performances from England and Wales. Both world cups were an effective disaster. 2019 worse than 2015. Way worse. We have gone so far backwards and he now seems out of his depth

The most successful provincial and international manager ever in Ireland....

Yes he made mistakes.....

But really, whats the point in posting these insulting comments?

theVersatile · 07-12-2019 11:45pm

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

whatawaster · 07-12-2019 11:49pm

I think it's getting to the stage for me where Murray is no longer automatic first choice for Ireland. He is not just off form, he has been playing at a lower level for 12-18 months.

Past achievements carry weight, I accept that, but over the last 12 months I think his level has dropped significantly, to the extent that I don't think it's clear who is the best SH between:

McGrath
JGP
Cooney
Murray
Marmion
Blade

In fact, if Farrell picked any 3 from that above list, I'd find it hard to argue with him. They are all good players.

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 11:53pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

That’s the point I’m making, yes he made mistakes but the witch hunt by some posters is an insult to all the great work he done

molloyjh · 08-12-2019 1:00am

theVersatile wrote: »

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

Excuse me, but this is the Internet. We wont tolerate you're idealistic and balanced mumbo jumbo around here. Kindly pick a side and stick by it regardless of fact or reason.

molloyjh · 08-12-2019 1:04am

Professor Genius wrote: »

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Lazy nonsense. We topped our group in 2015 and only lost the QF to a list of injuries no team could cope with. I've no issue calling out Joe for making mistakes. I'm reasonable enough to recognise though that he wasnt the only one who didnt deliver. And decent enough to not let the failings of 2019 colour my judgement of a man who was not only the single most successful coach this country has ever seen, but is also a genuinely decent guy who regularly made time for people and engaged with them when most others wouldnt have.

If you want to be insulting head on over to Twitter. This is a discussion forum, not a place for people to spout their own special brand of lazy finger pointing like they have a clue approach to rugby analysis.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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