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Religious funerals for prominent nonbelievers

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Comments

  • #62
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    I may be embroidering an interview I only dimly remember. Maeve was certainly clear she wanted a traditional Catholic funeral. Pretty sure her brother William would prefer it that way anyway:P


  • #63
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not entirely sure what your looking for...


    "The person who has legal authority to make funeral arrangements is the Executor"

    "An executor is legally in charge of making a deceased person's funeral arrangements. The executor must carry out the funeral instructions provided in the person's will. For example, a person may direct cremation, burial in a family cemetery, or a specific memorial service."

    ...I'm certainly no authority, I'm only repeating what I googled. If you've found something else please share.

    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??


  • #64
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/

    You do realise that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically? How can that happen if the undertaker can’t take instructions without the go ahead from the executor of the will?
    What if there’s no will?
    What if the executors not contactable???
    In the UK it’s typically 3 weeks.


  • #65
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    splinter65 wrote: »
    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??

    I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word evidence.

    I'll like the way you've countered with absolutely nothing. It's very convincing.

    You've pretty much ignored everything posted. So not much point engaging any further is there.


  • #66
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    Non-religious funerals don't necessarily need to be humanist, my dad's certainly wasn't. Nothing against humanists and it certainly helps to have someone help with organising the ceremony but a funeral can be whatever send off you choose it to be. I think it is all too easy to revert to the solemnity of a traditional religious funeral without the actual religion which isn't much of an improvement. To me, wakes are the better tradition, mingling and telling tales about person in life. Leaving a glass of whisky on the coffin and sharing a few words with the recently departed. Laughing and crying in equal measure. That kind of thing.


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  • #67
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You do realise that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically?

    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?


  • #68
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Any funeral I've been to or organised has had the removal the next day and burial/ cremation the day after. So in theory it starts within 24 hours


  • #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't get this obsession with other peoples funerals.

    Never mind deciding you know what's best for people you don't even know.


  • #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Same here normally at least three days minimum in my experience, regardless of the day the person died.

    Longer in one case due to a post mortem being required due to the sudden aspect of the person's death at the reasonably young age of 41.


  • #71
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Are there graveyards for atheists?

    Genuine question, I'm completely ignorant on this.


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  • #72
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Same here. They've all been 3-4 days and many after a weekend.
    All had their legal affairs sorted out in advance, months if not a year or two in advance. In the ones I was involved the funeral arrangements were already known, and it was only minor details that needed to be sorted. People were able to travel from abroad home. There were a couple of deaths unexpected, and they also took a good few days.


  • #73
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Are there graveyards for atheists?

    Genuine question, I'm completely ignorant on this.

    I've only been to cremations not burials where there was no mass, and no priest. But it was in a christian graveyard. The ashes were buried though. I've also been to cremations were the priest attended the burial of the ashes. The burial of the ashes happened a good many days after the cremation in the ones I've been at.

    I expect there's loads of variations depending on the families wishes.


  • #74
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,828 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    beauf wrote: »
    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/

    The big big difference is that in the UK, funerals often don't take place for weeks. As I already pointed out before your post.

    Here, the person is planted before anyone thinks about looking for a will, and there's nothing in a will that can force or prevent any particular type of funeral anyway.

    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Yes, most graveyards are local authority owned and accept all. If it's church owned, then that's up to the church man. A problem in Donegal as there's no local authority owned graveyard there.

    This country is so fecking brainwashed that there are loads of people who can't even conceive of the fact that all of the major milestones in life don't need the involvement of a church in any way whatsoever if you don't want it. Some people at my wedding didn't know that civil marriage existed in Ireland!

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #75
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    Any funeral I've been to or organised has had the removal the next day and burial/ cremation the day after. So in theory it starts within 24 hours

    You might want to explain how removal day after death and funeral day after that fits into 24 hours from time of death?

    Myself and my wife are at an age where we've quite a few friends losing parents in recent years and also live on a small road with elderly neighbours that has had its share of deaths. Assuming no PM, the usual pattern seems to be someone dies, it is announced in rip.ie, the reposal at the house is next day earliest, funeral is next day after that at the earliest. I don't think you could organise a cremation in a shorter time frame, bearing in mind that the crematorium require either medical papers filled out by the attending GP or doctor who was attending the deceased in their last illness or corners cert in the case of a post mortem. See https://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=frequently-asked-questions


  • #76
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    You might want to explain how removal day after death and funeral day after that fits into 24 hours from time of death?

    Myself and my wife are at an age where we've quite a few friends losing parents in recent years and also live on a small road with elderly neighbours that has had its share of deaths. Assuming no PM, the usual pattern seems to be someone dies, it is announced in rip.ie, the reposal at the house is next day earliest, funeral is next day after that at the earliest. I don't think you could organise a cremation in a shorter time frame, bearing in mind that the crematorium require either medical papers filled out by the attending GP or doctor who was attending the deceased in their last illness or corners cert in the case of a post mortem. See https://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=frequently-asked-questions

    An early morning death makes it quicker. Plus , I said the process starts with the removal 24 hours approximately after death.

    Depends how you look at it.


  • #77
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    I honestly can't see why people are worked up about it.
    If as you believe being dead then there's nothing , you won't know about it and won't care.

    It is a simple matter of respect. Having a religious ceremony for someone who wasn't religious is an open display of disrespect for their choices in life. The same would be true of refusing a religious ceremony for someone who was religious. While this clearly doesn't affect the dead person it can significantly affecting those grieving.

    It is also worth remembering that at a time where most people in this country no longer go to church on a regular basis, the priest will in all probability be a stranger to the deceased in most cases. Personally, this is the last person I'd want at a funeral for a loved one.


  • #78
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    An early morning death makes it quicker. Plus , I said the process starts with the removal 24 hours approximately after death.

    You responded to what I'd consider to be a specious claim here that "funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically" with "in theory it starts within 24 hours" which I'd read as being in agreement with that claim.
    Depends how you look at it.

    I look at it that there are twenty four hours in a day and the funeral is at earliest two days from time of death in the vast majority of cases in this country, more usually three or four days.


  • #79
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The big big difference is that in the UK, funerals often don't take place for weeks. As I already pointed out before your post.

    Here, the person is planted before anyone thinks about looking for a will, and there's nothing in a will that can force or prevent any particular type of funeral anyway.


    Yes, most graveyards are local authority owned and accept all. If it's church owned, then that's up to the church man. A problem in Donegal as there's no local authority owned graveyard there.

    This country is so fecking brainwashed that there are loads of people who can't even conceive of the fact that all of the major milestones in life don't need the involvement of a church in any way whatsoever if you don't want it. Some people at my wedding didn't know that civil marriage existed in Ireland!

    I know I've been to UK funerals. The bit I posted was simply a good list of order of legality. It's wasn't a time line of burial. It seems you can take out an interim injunction to prevent the burial going ahead or there can be an order exhume in extreme cases. We seem very hasty in Ireland.

    I'm our area there a shortage of space. So quite a few funerals have used the space in Church of Ireland graveyards and it hasn't needed attendance by a COI representative and obviously some of the ones I've had no organised religion what so ever.

    Usually (not always yes) people are sick for a while before dying. Never been involved in a dispute about a burial. There are always people who try to stir trouble though. Estranged family etc. Final chance to get a fog in I guess. That's pretty much what this thread is except about people you don't know.

    As far as I know last year was first year that civil weddings out numbered church weddings in Ireland. So far I've only attended the afters of non church weddings. It will get a lot more common. There aren't enough priests anymore and the average age is 70 or something.


  • #80
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??

    For anyone who has died suddenly, e.g. heart attack, accident etc... you'll need a coroners cert (source). Given your previous assertion "that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically" I suspect you have little or no actual experience of this yourself and are instead going with blind speculation that supports your preferred line of argument. Given your own interest in evidence above, perhaps you could provide some to support your own position?


  • #81
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    It is a simple matter of respect. Having a religious ceremony for someone who wasn't religious is an open display of disrespect for their choices in life. The same would be true of refusing a religious ceremony for someone who was religious. While this clearly doesn't affect the dead person it can significantly affecting those grieving.

    Usually it those grieving who make those choices. So it's a problem that solves itself.
    smacl wrote: »
    It is also worth remembering that at a time where most people in this country no longer go to church on a regular basis, the priest will in all probability be a stranger to the deceased in most cases. Personally, this is the last person I'd want at a funeral for a loved one.

    You won't know the people in a humanist ceremony or the undertakers either. Not that it matters.

    Vast majority of time at funerals is with friends and family, neighbours, usually remembering the good times you shared with the deceased.

    Often the funeral is after a long illness and for me at least the funeral was only a small part in someone passing. You can be a year or more before and afterwards sorting things out.

    This focus on a funeral which is at most an hour or two in the middle of all that, though highly stressful itself. Is a bit myopic. Imo.


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  • #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Theres a common theme in these threads of disrespecting other people choices and imposing opinions and beliefs on others. Very ironic.

    Boards is far more judgemental and not inclusive of other choices and vindictive especially when people are having a hard time then it used to be.

    It's not really about discussion and sharing ideas it's about giving sometime a verbal kicking at every opportunity.


  • #83
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Re point in OP about secular funerals being soulless affairs.

    Not about anyone famous, well he was a legend in his own lunch time.

    My dad, (who'd have been 77 today!) was adamant he wanted no religious ceremony, so we abided by his wishes. The celebrant did a fantastic job, he was juggling between my two brothers who believe, my sister who doesn't believe in God, but some spiritual after life, and me who thinks it's a big full stop when your time is done and he made huge efforts to include us all and nod to all our beliefs, he was great. And I think we all, including my two brothers, got more out of his personalised funeral than the Catholic service my mum had when she died.

    The time constraints relating to how quickly the Irish bury their dead that have been discussed in the thread were not an issue for me in the UK, and maybe that's why the celebrant did such a good job, he sat down and chatted with us all for over an hour, the week before the funeral.

    Saying all that, regardless of my faith, or lack of (which may or may not be disturbing) if my wife, who goes to church occasionally, and still believes, wanted to give me the full religious bells and whistles when I die, and invite the pope to do the service, I couldn't care less, because I'll be dead!

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • #84
    MarkY91
    Registered Users Posts: 7,067 ✭✭✭MarkY91


    harr wrote: »
    A former work colleague of mine was was very anti religion of any sort especially the Catholic Church and was adamant his funeral was to be non secular when he died. He passed away in his 60,s and his family went against his wishes and had the full catholic ceremony. I think it was his wife who did in fact go against some members of his family who tried to go with his wishes. It was a wrong thing to do just because it made his wife feel better. The local parish priest at the time had convinced her it was the right thing to do..
    So I think a lot of people leave it up to family members to deal with the funeral side of things after they have passed.

    I get both sides. Im an atheist. I'd probably rather a non religious funeral but at the end of the day..I'll be dead, I'm never gonna know. So whatever makes the antendees cope better would do me.


  • #85
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »
    ..., I couldn't care less, because I'll be dead!

    I'd be exactly the same. What ever is easiest for them. I think as people experience how much less stressful a non religious funeral/ burial is it will become more common. I have no problem with people who like the full church thing if that's their choice.


  • #86
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    beauf wrote: »
    Usually it those grieving who make those choices. So it's a problem that solves itself.

    You'd think so but families have a habit of disagreement in times of stress. In our case it was pressure from family members who saw my father very rarely to include a religious aspect to the funeral. Having been battered by the clergy as a child, for that most heinous of sins of being left handed, my father had no use for the church whatsoever. There was no way on earth myself and my sister were going to let some grubby little priest pontificate at his funeral to appease some God bothering relatives. Maybe we're a particularly fractious crew but I rather doubt it.

    It is a very stressful time, and while in my case I was lucky to have a like-minded sister and a wife who is fantastic at managing during a crisis, I'd guess it would be difficult not to bend to pressure if you were trying to organise a funeral solo. Funeral directors upselling coffins springs to mind as another example. You really need your wits about you.


  • #87
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    beauf wrote: »
    This focus on a funeral which is at most an hour or two in the middle of all that, though highly stressful itself. Is a bit myopic. Imo.

    Absolutely. It is what goes on before and afterwards that is so much more important.


  • #88
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

    It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.


  • #89
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robinph wrote: »
    The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

    It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.

    I'm not sure if there's any obligation here or whether it is just a function of tradition and perhaps the preference of the undertaking industry. While 3-4 days seems typical, I've been to an Irish funeral that took place a week later, albeit there was a post mortem involved.


  • #90
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,828 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    smacl wrote: »
    It is a very stressful time, and while in my case I was lucky to have a like-minded sister and a wife who is fantastic at managing during a crisis, I'd guess it would be difficult not to bend to pressure if you were trying to organise a funeral solo. Funeral directors upselling coffins springs to mind as another example. You really need your wits about you.

    Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    I'm not sure if there's any obligation here or whether it is just a function of tradition and perhaps the preference of the undertaking industry. While 3-4 days seems typical, I've been to an Irish funeral that took place a week later, albeit there was a post mortem involved.

    May well be linked to the fact also that people generally get three days bereavement leave at their employers discretion and unless your willing to take unpaid leave you get it done within the three days.


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