Doctor Who Season 11 [ Spoilers ]

dori_dormer · 23-10-2018 10:36am

I really wish they would stop bringing up the grandad/grandson thing. I find it incredibly annoying. Yes I remember you 2 have been related for the past few years!! Stop repeating yourselves! Hopefully they'll ease off next week as we delve deeper into yaz family

connemara man · 23-10-2018 11:30am

that song at the end really took me out of the moment, if they had left it to the score to morph naturally it would have been more immersive/impactful

The weapon thing could get dealt with again so I won't give out about it just yet

They are only two blips in what was a very good episode and one of the truest to what DR Who is meant to be stories told. ( Showing a moment in history)

I'm liking the more low-key style this season. Everything looks fantastic, you can see the budget pouring through the screen.
I hope the bad guys get a bit more substantial as everything is a bit too easy/light.

3 companions of the bat feels too much aswell. We're trying to get to know a new doctor, and her quirks and what she'll be like. And on top of that 3 new characters that have personal relationships and issues to resolve. I'm guessing that's why the villains of the week are so meh no time to really develop them.

Penn · 23-10-2018 11:50am

martingriff wrote: »

Raceism happens all the time just because the universe gets bigger does not mean it can not exist. I mean the world is a lot smaller not with everyone been able to go everywhere yet it is still as much as a problem.

Racism is not as much of a problem as it was. Not downplaying the level of racism that exists in the world by saying that or the seriousness of same, but this very episode itself shows how racism was much more significant even just 50 years ago, never mind hundreds of years ago. The idea that hundreds of years from now, in the world and time that the baddie supposedly came from where humans and aliens all interact freely with each other, that the bad guy who could travel to any point in time saw this as the focal point to change rather than try to influence something like the US Civil War which was in large part centered around slavery just felt incredibly weird. As does his hatred of black people, and not actual aliens.

martingriff · 23-10-2018 12:49pm

Penn wrote: »

Racism is not as much of a problem as it was. Not downplaying the level of racism that exists in the world by saying that or the seriousness of same, but this very episode itself shows how racism was much more significant even just 50 years ago, never mind hundreds of years ago. The idea that hundreds of years from now, in the world and time that the baddie supposedly came from where humans and aliens all interact freely with each other, that the bad guy who could travel to any point in time saw this as the focal point to change rather than try to influence something like the US Civil War which was in large part centered around slavery just felt incredibly weird. As does his hatred of black people, and not actual aliens.

The civil war a 4 year battle. This was a single moment in time, a pivotal moment easier to change. Your still falling in to the belief just because there are aliens people won't be racist to other people. Your thinking too much into this

FunLover18 · 23-10-2018 3:10pm

Penn wrote: »

Racism is not as much of a problem as it was. Not downplaying the level of racism that exists in the world by saying that or the seriousness of same, but this very episode itself shows how racism was much more significant even just 50 years ago, never mind hundreds of years ago. The idea that hundreds of years from now, in the world and time that the baddie supposedly came from where humans and aliens all interact freely with each other, that the bad guy who could travel to any point in time saw this as the focal point to change rather than try to influence something like the US Civil War which was in large part centered around slavery just felt incredibly weird. As does his hatred of black people, and not actual aliens.

I'm white and I'm therefore not in a position to be a victim of racism and as such I'm no expert on how much of a problem it is today but just from following the news and being on social media I certainly didn't watch this episode with any reassurance that things are much better now. Simply look at what happened in Charlottesville last year, the black lives matter movement, the various video instances of white people in America calling the police on black people for doing perfectly ordinary things like having a barbeque. Even closer to home in the UK, hate crimes are on the rise and there's the Windrush scandal. Racism may not be as public or official as it used to be (no segregation) but it's still there.

In terms of the episode itself, I liked it but there were times where it felt like the characters were quoting Parks's wiki page. I still feel there are too many characters with not enough time for them to bind and form connections. With previous season there was the sense that we were seeing snippets of the doctor's adventures with their companions whereas we've now had three strories in a row where there's very little of their interaction we aren't seeing but yet there's no sense of them getting to know each other.

Penn · 23-10-2018 3:23pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Racism may not be as public or official as it used to be (no segregation) but it's still there.

Of course, and again, I'm not trying to take away from any of the racism which exists today. But to say it's a much a problem as it always was, when the way it previously "always was" included slavery, mandatory segregation, lynchings etc, is just pure nonsense. And that's my point when it comes to the bad guy in this episode. His hatred of black people seemingly transcends not just the progress in reducing racism we've seen in our lifetimes, but the progress still yet to be made in future generations by the time he's alive which includes alien races, his racism is such that he picks this as the moment to try and affect history?

It just felt like they wanted to do this episode about Rosa Parks, and shoehorned a villain into it without giving him any kind of logical backstory or history other than "is a big racist". It just felt far too on the nose. They should have had him be a descendant of the busdriver, upset at how his ancestor and family have been vilified throughout history for it. Instantly you give him a motivation that makes sense, ties in with the story and why it had to be that moment, and why someone is still so deeply racist against black people hundreds of years into the future when I'd say most racists would have shifted towards hating aliens rather than black people.

FunLover18 · 23-10-2018 5:41pm

I agree and I would hope that we'll continue to make progress but there'll always be people who hate other people who are different from them and unfortunately I didn't find Krasock that unbelievable.

CastorTroy · 23-10-2018 6:49pm

When he said it at first I expected him then to point out he meant humans, since I feel that would make more sense in the future. Unless he's the universe's equivalent of a neo Nazi. He was an alien, wasn't he? Like how we had 3 aliens last week who looked human

Stark · 23-10-2018 7:20pm

CastorTroy wrote: »

He was an alien, wasn't he? Like how we had 3 aliens last week who looked human

Looked like a member of the T-Bird species.

pixelburp · 23-10-2018 9:03pm

The time traveller was probably the simplest deference to the shows premise , without involving a tentacled horror from beyond the moon, which might have ruined the mood a little. To the episodes credit, it was the right approach cos it was obvious the writers wanted the story to be focused on Rosa first, and not downplay the struggles and mundane horror of the era - which a CGI creature absolutely would have done.

Felt very old school too; easy to forget Dr Who started as an explicitly educational show about historical events. Also had shades of the US show Timeless, though it always had a half-hearted, limp treatment of race; funny the British show more ostensibly for kids packed a bigger punch

iguana · 23-10-2018 11:15pm

dori_dormer wrote: »

I really wish they would stop bringing up the grandad/grandson thing. I find it incredibly annoying. Yes I remember you 2 have been related for the past few years!! Stop repeating yourselves! Hopefully they'll ease off next week as we delve deeper into yaz family

I find it so, so weird that Graham would be obsessed that an adult man whom he would have first met as a 16/17 year old would be willing to call him grandad. (Assuming Ryan is meant to be about 20.) It's kind of creepy. If Graham and Grace had been married for 13 years and Graham had helped raise Ryan since he was 6 or 7 I could see why Graham would consider him his grandson and love to have the feeling reciprocated. But wtf would make him want a grown man, who he first met as a nearly grown man to see him as a grandfather. Obviously this is leading up to a big moment of jeopardy where Ryan calls Graham Grandad in what is intended as a big emotional moment. But it's just emotionally manipulative nonsense as it's just odd that Graham wants this kind of validation from another adult.

pixelburp · 24-10-2018 12:15pm

Oh yeah, from the moment the first episode dropped the line about Graham wanting to be called Grandad, it was obvious the big manipulative denouement would be finally getting his wish (take your pick whether or not that'd form part of some 'noble sacrifice' arc for Graham). It's a bit weird all right, but then Ryan does still call his nan 'Nan', so it is somewhat understandable that the husband might look for the same affection. Reading between the lines, I'm presuming the thought is Graham got a lease of life late in the day, and is diving off the emotional deep end, wanting to make up for lost time & become a retrospective Grandad.

TheIrishGrover · 24-10-2018 3:12pm

Penn wrote: »

Racism is not as much of a problem as it was. Not downplaying the level of racism that exists in the world by saying that or the seriousness of same, but this very episode itself shows how racism was much more significant even just 50 years ago, never mind hundreds of years ago. The idea that hundreds of years from now, in the world and time that the baddie supposedly came from where humans and aliens all interact freely with each other, that the bad guy who could travel to any point in time saw this as the focal point to change rather than try to influence something like the US Civil War which was in large part centered around slavery just felt incredibly weird. As does his hatred of black people, and not actual aliens.

Ah, but when he was on about "you people" was he talking about black people or humans in general?

Maybe this was the turning point of humans beginning to not be a bunch of small-minded a$$hats and this was the start of us emerging as a People to be reckoned with..... type thing...

I enjoyed that episode. I've said before, I'm only a fan since reboot/Ecclestone so I was never into it originally but it did strike me as something they would have done then.... Only with a large budget and excellent production values. (I have a 4K TV and, even though the show is "only" in HD, the opening credits looks fantastic).

For sure that's not the last we'll see of Teddy-boy bad guy. I mean there is a reason it was a time displacement weapon instead of just a standard "Laser Gun".

I do believe all the episodes are linked alright, we just can't see the big picture yet, but I don't think it's going to be as bombastic as Tennnant's tenure usually went. That teeth guy's species mentioned in 2nd episode. I can't remember the initials on the suitcase but they sure went out of their way to make sure we saw them.

I thought the bit with King and Parks was funny and well done:

"Thank you Martin Luther King"
"Do you want a drink?"
"Yes please Rosa Parks"

thought that was played well, him repeatedly saying their full names as if he can't quite believe it.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 25-10-2018 4:01pm

now that was an extremely powerful and moving episode. well done chris chibnail and the team.

Found it very moving towards the end particularly what Rosa Parks (god bless her) did for her community from that moment onwards.
again, well done to all involved.;)

Tordelback · 25-10-2018 4:12pm

I'm guessing Graham is partly trying to honour his later wife by reassuring Ryan he still has a family, despite their lack of a long and/or blood relationship. Getting Ryan to accept him as his Grandad is a visible (audible) part of that. When we met Ryan in the bike riding sequence he seemed very emotionally vulnerable despite his age (and in addition to his disability), I imagine Grace wanted him to continue be supported in the way that she had been doing. It's also a continuation of Graham's own thwarted vision of having a second shot at a loving family life.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 28-10-2018 9:24pm

On the Rosa episode the problem with all the faffing about at the end to make sure that she got on the exact bus at the exact time was pointless. Rosa could have protested the next day. Or a week later. Once the alien was gone they could have left (even worse the main thing slowing her down was fixing the doctors cape).

I almost liked the spiders episode except I’m not really sure about how they fixed everything. Ending was rushed.

coffee_cake · 28-10-2018 9:59pm

The bad guy in rosa seemed a bit pointless and the song overlay as mentioned was immersion breaking imo

Hey i shot a bad guy far into the past or future
Cool well unlike the weeping angels who cares

coffee_cake · 28-10-2018 10:54pm

Ok the spider episode was brilliant! Yeah!
Are you ed sheeran

I'm talking to spiders

Good monster of the week, music was perfectly atmospheric.
Bit of a personality change with the doc who usually avoids any family gatherings.. I love jodie w as the doctor she's great.

Only thing was like i kinda thought your man had a point about mercy killing. Surely it beats letting the spider suffocate for possibly a long time. And what about the rest of the spiders? Are we starving them and trapping them for months on end? Bit of a non ending or a bad ending even

jim-jam · 28-10-2018 11:08pm

Really great episode. Suitably creeped out by the spiders. Mr. Big had a point about the mercy killing alright and I assume the spiders in the panic palace will live out a natural life cycle like the zoologist suggested.

Jodie is really going from strength to strength as the Doctor.

CastorTroy · 29-10-2018 1:35am

As someone who only really started watching from the Paul McGann movie, I thought that was the best episode of the season so far. Though like others said, I felt the ending didn't make sense. Lock the spiders in the panic room because it's more humane? Pretty sure it would lead to cannibalism. And are we to believe that's all the spiders that were throughout the city? And letting the spider suffocate instead of killing it?

Just hope Yaz remembers the bread when she comes home.

Wonder if we'll see your man again running for or as the US President.

Killer_banana · 29-10-2018 3:05am

Re Ryan and Graham the character is apparently meant to be 19 but the actor is 26. I do wonder if Ryan was originally younger but they liked Tosin so made him older to make his casting more believable (though I think he still looks too old to be playing a 19 year old and was surprised when I found out that was the character's age).

pgmcpq · 29-10-2018 3:14am

Wait a minute .... what about the spider in the flat ???

CastorTroy · 29-10-2018 3:20am

pgmcpq wrote: »

Wait a minute .... what about the spider in the flat ???

Shhh, we don't talk about that.
Just like I'm unclear whether or not the guy plans to open the hotel

Meant to say for the Rosa episode, I guess it could be compared to Quantum Leap another way with the bad guy being the evil leaper.
Also kind of made me think of The Body episode of Buffy. Serious episode but stuck in a vampire to make it a bit more Buffy.

donegal_man · 29-10-2018 3:34am

Disappointed with the last two episodes of Dr Who not because of Jodie Whittaker who I think could turn into one of the classic incarnations of the character.
I think episode three would have more interesting had they chosen to tell the story of Claudette Colvin who refused to give up her seat on a Montgomery, Alabama bus some nine months before Rosa Parks and has been largely forgotten. Like other viewers I regard this week's ending as unsatisfactory. There's no clear evidence they rounded up any spiders other than those in the hotel/mine and despite all the emoting about Robinson shooting the mother spider (essentially euthanising it) they've trapped her offspring in a sealed room to presumably either die of suffocation or cannibalism.

Axwell · 29-10-2018 4:09am

Not really getting the love for this weeks episode. Thought the ending was terrible and really rushed and overall the episode was badly tied together. I found myself rewinding it to see had I even missed something when they did the whole masterplan to catch the spiders.

As others have pointed out, the whole fuss about the the presidential candidate shooting the mother seen to be inhumane but they were ok with locking all the spiders in a panic room to die just seemed odd. The one spider in the neighbours apartment is still sitting there waiting for the vinegar to dry up. They had literally only described the plan then jumped to dealing with the mother to then jumping to being back in Yaz’s apartment. Even when the president guy stormed off after shooting the mother it looked like he was going to do something else but nope.

It feels like having a group of companions means they have to split them up to give them airtime in the episode so they all seem relevant and part of the bigger arc of the season but it means having filler scenes with little meaning. The whole thing becomes very A-Team like with you little clips of Yaz and the doctor doing on thing when Ryan and Graham are doing another, all thats missing is the doctor smoking a cigar saying I love it when a plan comes together. Its happened in this episode and in the Rosa Parks one and so far the series just isnt grabbing me because its so scattered and meaningless with these bits.

Also the series so far is too focused on nods to real life current affairs/politics between Rosa Parks and the gun toting Trump wanna be. Bring back the sci fi escapism that people love and tune in for. Hopefully it improves now they are officially companions and start travelling properly.

FunLover18 · 29-10-2018 3:07pm

I really enjoyed this weeks episode, definitely my favourite so far (Rosa was great but not one that I'll be in a rush to rewatch). There seems to be a lot of emphasis this season on not directly killing the antagonist/monster. Tim Shaw is killed by his own prey, TD stuns the robots with an EMP rather than killing them, time travel man from Rosa is sent to a different time (Ryan says he sets it back as far back as it can go so I'm guessing he's not going to live happily until he dies of old age), and this week the spiders are all going to die naturally of starvation/suffocation/being eaten by another spider which is "humane" because The Doctor didn't kill them and won't have to live with that guilt. It's weird, but like I said I really enjoyed it, definitely Jodie's best episode so far as The Doctor was allowed be a little more relaxed as the stakes were lower. Her performance in the first scene where she's about to leave and then Yaz offers her tea was perfect.

donegal_man · 29-10-2018 5:08pm

My partner brought up another unresolved issue with last night's episode. What happens when the police/landlord/neighbours eventually gain access to the flat where the spider was left presumably trapped with it's victim?

pixelburp · 30-10-2018 12:51pm

Another slightly old-school episode, this time echoing those Classic Who stories of 'Giant Monster invades England', albeit without the presence of UNIT to tackle the growing threat

(probably no budget for anything beyond these 'bottle' episodes with a cast of 3/4 folks). The last couple of episodes have felt the most ostensibly alike the original series in a long while, without the baggage of canon or fan-service getting in the way - it's a good approach, getting the show back to its roots.

As to the actual story, it wasn't one for arachnophobes & the FX were pretty decent, but like others I found the ending more than a bit rushed, while the solution to the smaller spiders rang very hollow & not at all 'humane'. Don't think it would have taken much for the Doctor to contrive transporting them to a nice empty planet so they can live in peace.

I liked little moment between Graham / Ryan in the ballroom, it wasn't the emotional sledgehammer I've been fearing from last week, the small thawing between them thanks to Ryan's father's poorly worded letter.

Axwell wrote: »

Also the series so far is too focused on nods to real life current affairs/politics between Rosa Parks and the gun toting Trump wanna be. Bring back the sci fi escapism that people love and tune in for. Hopefully it improves now they are officially companions and start travelling properly.

Where's the point in having a time machine if you can't tell stories about Earth's past? It was literally the reason the show came to be back in 1963, and wouldn't agree that the Rosa Parks episode was any more or less topical had it been told back in 2005 during the show's relaunch (13 years!!). Heck, the point of the episode was quite clear with Ryan's monologue about how even in his time the spectre of racism is there in 2018.

Axwell · 30-10-2018 1:25pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Where's the point in having a time machine if you can't tell stories about Earth's past? It was literally the reason the show came to be back in 1963, and wouldn't agree that the Rosa Parks episode was any more or less topical had it been told back in 2005 during the show's relaunch (13 years!!). Heck, the point of the episode was quite clear with Ryan's monologue about how even in his time the spectre of racism is there in 2018.

The Rosa Parks one had its point to get across and thats fine but it just overpowered the episode for me. The bad guy was popping up every now and then in the episode with his plan to change history and then was simply dealt with by Ryan blasting him into the past. Like this weeks ending it just seemed rushed to just get rid of him in the episode so they could get back to the moment of Rosa on the bus. The bad guys overall involvement just felt very throw away and he was pretty much irrelevant in the overall story of the episode and easy to forget. Too much focus on highlighting racism and not enough on the sci-fi/baddie of the week for me.

Axwell · 30-10-2018 1:37pm

It also comes back to what I said about too many companions, they have to give each of them airtime to develop their story, introduce us to the new doctor and include a baddie of the week and storyline. Its a lot to fit in to an episode and find a balance and I dont think the balance was there in these two episodes and things felt rushed in parts.

Doctor Who Season 11 [** Spoilers **]

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Doctor Who Season 11 [ Spoilers ]