Applying for an SNA

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 5:43pm #1

So, my child who is due to start school this coming September has non verbal ASD, the school aren't very cooperative and trying to back me into keeping him in preschool another year, no way says i, is it the school or myself who must apply for the SNA? All reports from AON,Preschool,GP handed over 1 full year in advance to try and help make the transition easy rather than to just dump it on them on the first day of school. There is no unit in the school so he will he in a mainstream class.

byhookorbycrook · 18-02-2020 10:28pm

There is a lot of uncertainty over SNA allocation for the next school year . There’s a pilot scheme in place whereby schools are allocated a fixed number of SNA hours , no matter what the needs in the school are. Even the SENOs seem uncertain .
Recently , there seems to be a delay on allocation of SNAs to junior infants .

I am speculating that the school may not have experience of children with non verbal ASD ? It’s your right to send your child at whatever age you want , of course . No deadline has been given to schools for applying for SNA support , so it seems that SNAs will be allocated as already outlined .

irishgirl19 · 18-02-2020 10:58pm

I'd be getting onto the SENO. They should really source a suitable place for your child (that's if mainstream isn't the recommendation). But I know that's easier said than done.
I believe the school has to arrange SNA but they could be shared among a few kids.
My daughter is autistic and non verbal. We've applied for so many schools for September. I'm just hoping she gets a place in an ASD unit. Some schools are telling us she's 200 and something on the list

Calhoun · 18-02-2020 10:59pm

Its the schools responsibility but make sure to give the seno a poke to see what the story is.

No matter what bleeding heart story they come up with between the school and the seno its their responsibility to provide you child with an education. Your responsibility ends when you enroll them in the school.

Sure they can get your child removed but that would require reporting and the likes from Tusla and the NCSE.

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 11:26pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There is a lot of uncertainty over SNA allocation for the next school year . There’s a pilot scheme in place whereby schools are allocated a fixed number of SNA hours , no matter what the needs in the school are. Even the SENOs seem uncertain .
Recently , there seems to be a delay on allocation of SNAs to junior infants .

I am speculating that the school may not have experience of children with non verbal ASD ? It’s your right to send your child at whatever age you want , of course . No deadline has been given to schools for applying for SNA support , so it seems that SNAs will be allocated as already outlined .

Yes they have no experience with non verbal ASD and the SENO and principal are drafting in the HSCL officer to try and sway me into not enrolling him this year

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 11:28pm

irishgirl19 wrote: »

I'd be getting onto the SENO. They should really source a suitable place for your child (that's if mainstream isn't the recommendation). But I know that's easier said than done.
I believe the school has to arrange SNA but they could be shared among a few kids.
My daughter is autistic and non verbal. We've applied for so many schools for September. I'm just hoping she gets a place in an ASD unit. Some schools are telling us she's 200 and something on the list

There was only one unit near my house, due to a conflict of interest it was a non runner. 200 on a list for an SNA?

Calhoun · 18-02-2020 11:29pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yes they have no experience with non verbal ASD and the SENO and principal are drafting in the HSCL officer to try and sway me into not enrolling him this year

Where do they plan on putting him next year? And are you completely against it? We did an extra year of pre-school because it was what our girl needed but when she went to school she was non-verbal.

She is still non-verbal to an extent but has learnt llots of words since then.

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 11:30pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Its the schools responsibility but make sure to give the seno a poke to see what the story is.

No matter what bleeding heart story they come up with between the school and the seno its their responsibility to provide you child with an education. Your responsibility ends when you enroll them in the school.

Sure they can get your child removed but that would require reporting and the likes from Tusla and the NCSE.

They are telling me wait until he is 5, he will turn 4 on the day he starts school, I’ve refused on the basis that in the AON it was recommended he get aims support in preschool and I was assured he would, it never materialised, I was told it’s optional for them but mandatory in the school setting.

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 11:34pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Where do they plan on putting him next year? And are you completely against it? We did an extra year of pre-school because it was what our girl needed but when she went to school she was non-verbal.

She is still non-verbal to an extent but has learnt llots of words since then.

He’ll be put in with the normal main stream junior infants, an extra year of preschool is something myself and his mother have ruled out as the department of education weren’t playing ball with AIMS allocation. He’s on a preschool class of 11 with 2 adults who cannot give him the attention he needs due to “numbers” in other words they aren’t getting SNA funding to bring in a third person who will work with him. I’ve said no to early start as well for the same reasons, we cannot get a guarantee on it.

Calhoun · 18-02-2020 11:35pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They are telling me wait until he is 5, he will turn 4 on the day he starts school, I’ve refused on the basis that in the AON it was recommended he get aims support in preschool and I was assured he would, it never materialised, I was told it’s optional for them but mandatory in the school setting.

I am surprised he didn't get aim's they do their own assessment and if the child has the need they normally provide it.

The aim's however is really only so that the pre-school has the support so they can have him in the class its not exactly an SnA position.

I would be pushing the SENO for either an ASD pre-school/unit or home tutor hours as an alternative if you did want to consider keeping him out one more year. However tutor you have to source yourself, they must have a teaching council number and are hard to come by.

Cork Trucker · 18-02-2020 11:47pm

Calhoun wrote: »

I am surprised he didn't get aim's they do their own assessment and if the child has the need they normally provide it.

The aim's however is really only so that the pre-school has the support so they can have him in the class its not exactly an SnA position.

I would be pushing the SENO for either an ASD pre-school/unit or home tutor hours as an alternative if you did want to consider keeping him out one more year. However tutor you have to source yourself, they must have a teaching council number and are hard to come by.

My case regarding that is due in the high court soon, AON says he needed it, AIMS think they know better having never met the child. I wouldn’t go down the tutor route, the SENO while not admitting it is against him starting, his body language and approach to it is enough for me, every phone call, every meeting all I keep getting from him is “oh 5 would be better” or “we can help you find another preschool for next year” I’m still educating myself on AIMS but it seems he is not getting what is recommended for him. All cope foundation appointments are 2/3 years from now even.

byhookorbycrook · 19-02-2020 12:15am

As a primary teacher , I do feel that turning 4 as school opens is too young for any child. His needs will have to be met within the existing SEN model - children no longer get allocated “ hours “ as happened under the old model - so he will be sharing in what’s there already .

SNA-wise , he may get “ access” which can mean 10 minutes a day , depending on what other needs exist in the school . I’d certainly chase down the SENO, but I’m being honest I’m saying that they don’t know themselves what’s happening , so schools don’t either . Some SENOs are saying to send in reports and applications and others are saying that the new model for SNA provision will be in place this September.
Rather typical of the DES, I’m afraid .

Calhoun · 19-02-2020 12:52am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

My case regarding that is due in the high court soon, AON says he needed it, AIMS think they know better having never met the child. I wouldn’t go down the tutor route, the SENO while not admitting it is against him starting, his body language and approach to it is enough for me, every phone call, every meeting all I keep getting from him is “oh 5 would be better” or “we can help you find another preschool for next year” I’m still educating myself on AIMS but it seems he is not getting what is recommended for him. All cope foundation appointments are 2/3 years from now even.

Be interesting to see how that one goes, I am very surprised you had that experience the AIMS people where I am were very attentive and we got approval for one staff member in the pre-school. We liked it so much we actually extended the ECCE scheme for a year.

The SENO's should be working for the children but generally you find they work to keep themselves in a job or to gatekeep the resources they have. Even the language as you have written it there is all about "help you" not actually find them a place in a pre-school with ASD support. We had the option to go to an ASD pre-school but we turned it down as the AIMS was that good in our area.

I would advise though to consider all the options because from what you have written I don't think its about going to school so much as its about making sure some support is in place.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a primary teacher , I do feel that turning 4 as school opens is too young for any child. His needs will have to be met within the existing SEN model - children no longer get allocated “ hours “ as happened under the old model - so he will be sharing in what’s there already .

SNA-wise , he may get “ access” which can mean 10 minutes a day , depending on what other needs exist in the school . I’d certainly chase down the SENO, but I’m being honest I’m saying that they don’t know themselves what’s happening , so schools don’t either . Some SENOs are saying to send in reports and applications and others are saying that the new model for SNA provision will be in place this September.
Rather typical of the DES, I’m afraid .

Another thing to consider with this is that even under the existing model of SNA the hours that are applied are not rigidly applied to a child or they weren't in our school. My daughter is a flight risk, non-verbal and is not toilet trained so the SNA is critical, however if she did not have the above needs they probably would cut the time she has with her SNA.

I can only imagine the new model is going to have allot of court cases if they understaff it. Either that or the schools will try and pressure the parents to do something which has been tried with us already.

alroley · 19-02-2020 12:57am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They are telling me wait until he is 5, he will turn 4 on the day he starts school, I’ve refused on the basis that in the AON it was recommended he get aims support in preschool and I was assured he would, it never materialised, I was told it’s optional for them but mandatory in the school setting.

Sorry, non-verbal or not, that is crazy young to send a child to school.

Motherof123 · 19-02-2020 1:09am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They are telling me wait until he is 5, he will turn 4 on the day he starts school, I’ve refused on the basis that in the AON it was recommended he get aims support in preschool and I was assured he would, it never materialised, I was told it’s optional for them but mandatory in the school setting.

Judging by your name your from cork I am also from cork we had issues with my child's playschool applying for Aims saying oh it's too late (a week before they even started in 2019 excuse after excuse it must be a cork thing they really need to inform any service using the ecce scheme what is available to parents and children to ensure they don't miss out.
I waited for all my kids to turn 5 the rule was you have to be 4 before the 1st of May to start in September so you might double check his age with the school to make sure because one of my kids is a May baby and they told me she's too young. They prefer them to be 4 and 5 months at the youngest starting.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 8:52am

alroley wrote: »

Sorry, non-verbal or not, that is crazy young to send a child to school.

I’ve done it with my other children. I respect your opinion but please don’t judge me. The law allows it whether it’s right or wrong. The child is not getting the required support where he is.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 8:57am

Motherof123 wrote: »

Judging by your name your from cork I am also from cork we had issues with my child's playschool applying for Aims saying oh it's too late (a week before they even started in 2019 excuse after excuse it must be a cork thing they really need to inform any service using the ecce scheme what is available to parents and children to ensure they don't miss out.
I waited for all my kids to turn 5 the rule was you have to be 4 before the 1st of May to start in September so you might double check his age with the school to make sure because one of my kids is a May baby and they told me she's too young. They prefer them to be 4 and 5 months at the youngest starting.

Yes indeed I’m in Cork City. I applied in late August and it took until October to be told no. The department of education rules are they can start once 4 by September 30th. I once put a child in who turned 4 on September 28tth, they were never held back, they were a full month behind the rest of the class.

Motherof123 · 19-02-2020 9:09am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yes indeed I’m in Cork City. I applied in late August and it took until October to be told no. The department of education rules are they can start once 4 by September 30th. I once put a child in who turned 4 on September 28tth, they were never held back, they were a full month behind the rest of the class.

Did you get a diagnosis?
The other option is home tuition right now to help with things to prepare for school.
Little bit of writing colouring etc
Home tuition is 20 hours a week in your own home but that doesn't work for everyone.
Shine have a list of available tutors and the rainbow club.
They need structure and it's hard to implement that at home.
The ecce in my
Opinion is basic they can't do any extra and might not want to.
11:1 is a lot there are all 3 year olds with different demands.
If you feel primary school is the best option then go for it just make sure the sna is in place ASAP to guide your son.
My child is also a sept baby will also be 4 in sept 2020 but we need a mainstream with an ASD class. Smaller numbers more help etc.
I hope you find the help you need it's a nightmare and once your son settles and has assistance you can work on other things outside school if needed.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 9:28am

Motherof123 wrote: »

Did you get a diagnosis?
The other option is home tuition right now to help with things to prepare for school.
Little bit of writing colouring etc
Home tuition is 20 hours a week in your own home but that doesn't work for everyone.
Shine have a list of available tutors and the rainbow club.
They need structure and it's hard to implement that at home.
The ecce in my
Opinion is basic they can't do any extra and might not want to.
11:1 is a lot there are all 3 year olds with different demands.
If you feel primary school is the best option then go for it just make sure the sna is in place ASAP to guide your son.
My child is also a sept baby will also be 4 in sept 2020 but we need a mainstream with an ASD class. Smaller numbers more help etc.
I hope you find the help you need it's a nightmare and once your son settles and has assistance you can work on other things outside school if needed.

Yes, after having to take the HSE to court to get the AON done it was completed in July 2019 which included an occupational therapist & child psychologist going to his then creche to observe him and speak with staff as part of the process, the feedback meeting took place in the same month with the formal ASD diagnosis and i received the report within 2 weeks, many of the recommendations in the report have not been adhered to such as AIMS, legal advice is yet to be taken on whether to re-enter the case on other matters that have not been complied with but the AIMS boat has well and truly sailed now.

Home tuition sadly isn't an option due to the limited space in the home setting. Shine are in Carrigaline? The class my son is due to go into is a maximum of 16, not much bigger than what he already is in at preschool.

Thank you for your kind words, i have every faith in him to settle in well, the only downside to it is his speech, he can do the alphabet & 1-10 with a handful of other words thrown in but other than that has nothing else. I agree with you 100%, once he is in school the plan is to work on the other needs he has, but to achieve this he would need to be in school. I hope everything works out for you and your son also.

Motherof123 · 19-02-2020 10:09am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yes, after having to take the HSE to court to get the AON done it was completed in July 2019 which included an occupational therapist & child psychologist going to his then creche to observe him and speak with staff as part of the process, the feedback meeting took place in the same month with the formal ASD diagnosis and i received the report within 2 weeks, many of the recommendations in the report have not been adhered to such as AIMS, legal advice is yet to be taken on whether to re-enter the case on other matters that have not been complied with but the AIMS boat has well and truly sailed now.

Home tuition sadly isn't an option due to the limited space in the home setting. Shine are in Carrigaline? The class my son is due to go into is a maximum of 16, not much bigger than what he already is in at preschool.

Thank you for your kind words, i have every faith in him to settle in well, the only downside to it is his speech, he can do the alphabet & 1-10 with a handful of other words thrown in but other than that has nothing else. I agree with you 100%, once he is in school the plan is to work on the other needs he has, but to achieve this he would need to be in school. I hope everything works out for you and your son also.

My son is the same alphabet & numbers he is also copying words a lot depending on the form.
Home tuition we have they just use the living room and he's fine with that I got him a little table and chairs to work on. She does a visual schedule and he likes knowing what's coming next.
I thought I could do all that at home with flash cards but she has brought out more words.
It's not ideal but we have no choice really.
He's learning 1:1 which is great as you won't get that anywhere.
Good luck with the legal side of things that's possibly the best route you could ever take.
We panicked and paid ourselves which has its downsides as the list he was moved onto seems to have disappeared with no Slt or Ot so we now have to pay for this too.
The HSE make it so complicated they know these kids are our pride and joy and we would eat 2 minute noodles forever just to afford what comes with ASD.

We are paying too for OT which has helped also he loves going once a week I made a story board for that he knows the words but it gives him a sense of knowing what's happening and confidence and excited to go.
So I say car first then (took a photo of the OT room)
Then we say hello to the therapist.
Shoes off etc
And bye bye
Car
Home
Have a pic of our house but any house would do.
He may not need all that but it helps him understand.
All those school chapping and changing isn't good for kids either they just settle in early intervention and then have to go to a new school.
So by you getting him into primary he will settle and juniors is learning and playing phonics for the first few weeks which he probably knows already.
Then start on reading after Christmas with the phonics they learnt.
Also join the local library my son loves the library cork city library you can ask for colouring sheets they have them and crayons. And take home books and show him they have great alphabet ones and any cartoons he's into like my son loves the twirliwoos.
They have toys also.
Best of luck with everything and I hope over the summer the words start flying out!

Gatling · 19-02-2020 12:48pm

I'd be listening to the advice on the thread ,

I'd be inclined to agree with some of the other posters with experience in schools and special needs,
Starting a child of 4 who's non verbal (toilet trained?) Autistic in a school who don't seem equipped to deal with your child's needs isn't a great idea at all ,
I'd be trying to find a preschool that has the staff numbers and experience with children with extra needs , children at 4 with autism are usually behind their peers in most situations , starting school early won't be much benefit without the correct support,it actually cause more problems than it's worth for all involved ,

irishgirl19 · 19-02-2020 5:06pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

There was only one unit near my house, due to a conflict of interest it was a non runner. 200 on a list for an SNA?

Sorry should've specified it was for certain schools not SNA.
Did the HSE give your son a cognitive assessment? We were promised one but unfortunately doesn't look like it's going to happen

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 6:49pm

Motherof123 wrote: »

My son is the same alphabet & numbers he is also copying words a lot depending on the form.
Home tuition we have they just use the living room and he's fine with that I got him a little table and chairs to work on. She does a visual schedule and he likes knowing what's coming next.
I thought I could do all that at home with flash cards but she has brought out more words.
It's not ideal but we have no choice really.
He's learning 1:1 which is great as you won't get that anywhere.
Good luck with the legal side of things that's possibly the best route you could ever take.
We panicked and paid ourselves which has its downsides as the list he was moved onto seems to have disappeared with no Slt or Ot so we now have to pay for this too.
The HSE make it so complicated they know these kids are our pride and joy and we would eat 2 minute noodles forever just to afford what comes with ASD.

We are paying too for OT which has helped also he loves going once a week I made a story board for that he knows the words but it gives him a sense of knowing what's happening and confidence and excited to go.
So I say car first then (took a photo of the OT room)
Then we say hello to the therapist.
Shoes off etc
And bye bye
Car
Home
Have a pic of our house but any house would do.
He may not need all that but it helps him understand.
All those school chapping and changing isn't good for kids either they just settle in early intervention and then have to go to a new school.
So by you getting him into primary he will settle and juniors is learning and playing phonics for the first few weeks which he probably knows already.
Then start on reading after Christmas with the phonics they learnt.
Also join the local library my son loves the library cork city library you can ask for colouring sheets they have them and crayons. And take home books and show him they have great alphabet ones and any cartoons he's into like my son loves the twirliwoos.
They have toys also.
Best of luck with everything and I hope over the summer the words start flying out!

I have no regrets with the legal side of things and will plow on with it, it's the only way sadly. The home tuition seems invaluable for your son, what kind of hours is he allocated? I take him to the l library once a week, all books related to letters & numbers, he picks out his own, equally the colouring competitions he likes those too! Many thanks, i hope for good results over the next 6 months

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 6:56pm

Gatling wrote: »

I'd be listening to the advice on the thread ,

I'd be inclined to agree with some of the other posters with experience in schools and special needs,
Starting a child of 4 who's non verbal (toilet trained?) Autistic in a school who don't seem equipped to deal with your child's needs isn't a great idea at all ,
I'd be trying to find a preschool that has the staff numbers and experience with children with extra needs , children at 4 with autism are usually behind their peers in most situations , starting school early won't be much benefit without the correct support,it actually cause more problems than it's worth for all involved ,

I can see the point some people are making and i accept that, he's not toilet trained, the school are aware of this. What i have discovered since i was last on line earlier today is that they are equipped for such circumstances but would rather a get out of jail card if they can, hence the whole "better to start at 5" comment. They are trying to sway me towards the early start preschool which is adjacent to the main school itself, i've sought a guarantee that no one is willing to give me that he gets AIMS, no one including AIMS will say that he can and i must go through the process of application (AGAIN!) this is why i am not in favour of a second year of preschool. His case was in the high court today regarding all of this and i have yet to hear back on it, basically if i don't proceed to putting him into school this year after all my jumping up and down and taking the HSE/Dept of Education to court i might find myself with a nice legal bill which i firstly don't want and secondly cannot afford.

The flip side of all of this then is if i did wait until he was 5 and nothing changes will they turn around and say "legally he doesn't have to start until he is 6" that's not what i want for him, his mother is in alignment with my thoughts on that.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 6:58pm

irishgirl19 wrote: »

Sorry should've specified it was for certain schools not SNA.
Did the HSE give your daughter a cognitive assessment? We were promised one but unfortunately doesn't look like it's going to happen

It was a full ASD assessment, 30 minutes with the child in my presence, a 4 hour interview with me and a 10 minute feedback session. It's a constant battle with the HSE, it would make you sick to think how poor our health service is and more importantly the states recognition of children with special needs.

Calhoun · 19-02-2020 7:13pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I can see the point some people are making and i accept that, he's not toilet trained, the school are aware of this. What i have discovered since i was last on line earlier today is that they are equipped for such circumstances but would rather a get out of jail card if they can, hence the whole "better to start at 5" comment. They are trying to sway me towards the early start preschool which is adjacent to the main school itself, i've sought a guarantee that no one is willing to give me that he gets AIMS, no one including AIMS will say that he can and i must go through the process of application (AGAIN!) this is why i am not in favour of a second year of preschool. His case was in the high court today regarding all of this and i have yet to hear back on it, basically if i don't proceed to putting him into school this year after all my jumping up and down and taking the HSE/Dept of Education to court i might find myself with a nice legal bill which i firstly don't want and secondly cannot afford.

The flip side of all of this then is if i did wait until he was 5 and nothing changes will they turn around and say "legally he doesn't have to start until he is 6" that's not what i want for him, his mother is in alignment with my thoughts on that.

My daughter is 6 and still not toilet trained,so that's not a barrier.

I don't think your problem is exactly and age one but getting resources problem, I can understand why you are pushing but if you were given assurances of a better way without entering school would you take it.

Also does your legal council think you have a decent case ?

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 7:23pm

Calhoun wrote: »

My daughter is 6 and still not toilet trained,so that's not a barrier.

I don't think your problem is exactly and age one but getting resources problem, I can understand why you are pushing but if you were given assurances of a better way without entering school would you take it.

Also does your legal council think you have a decent case ?

Yes it may come down to resources. If i was given a cast iron guarantee that the child would get AIM''s or an SNA if he did another year of preschool then i would do it, but i can't get the guarantee i'm seeking. I'm just told to follow the application process again.

It would be defeatist if my counsel didn't say there was a good change of succeeding, they approached me with the evidence they had and told me their legal opinion via my solicitor, i did not know i could legally challenge the outcome of an AON on the grounds that the recommendations aren't being delivered. I hope to hear back by Friday, it has been adjourned each month since the case was entered in November.

As for the toileting issue, i have been told it would be up to me to go to the school and change him, again it's not something i have an issue with as in the entire time he has been in both creche and preschool, who do change him, he has never once done a dump, i don't mean to be vulgar in putting it that way, but he always waits until he gets home to do it. He has full control over his bowel, just not the bladder. Or as the preschool staff said, it may be a comfort thing as to why he only does it at home. The preschool said he is primary school material bar his speech and toilet training, hence the SNA is required.

Shybride2016 · 19-02-2020 8:30pm

Hi CorkTrucker,

I am a preschool teacher and very concerned to hear that the preschool are not fulfilling their obligations with regards to AIM for your child. Can I ask, was he granted AIM Level 7 support (i.e. an extra member of staff in the room)? How are they managing at the moment and how is your son coping with preschool without the support he should be getting? In my experience once AIM is granted, meetings with the Better Start coordinator and parents are set up so as to set some goals and expectations for the year ahead and reviewed each half-term.

I would absolutely agree with others here who have said that just gone 4 years of age nowadays is extremely young to be starting Primary School, regardless of it being in a small class as you describe. Do you know from the school what the age profile of your son’s class is likely to be? Some kids can be nearly 5 1/2 starting Junior Infants now which as you know is a big difference from a 4 year old. Im very surprised at the preschool saying he’ll be ready for Primary School too.

In my limited experience of the SNAs in mainstream Primary School, no child gets a one on one all the time, the resources just aren’t there unfortunately so your son would be likely sharing with other children in his class or the wider school, depending on the others’ needs.

Will he have done 2 years ECCE when he starts Primary School? I’m guessing not and you know he’s eligible for another year ECCE. Would you and your wife consider changing his preschool? To somewhere that will support him as they should, especially with regard to having the AIM recommendations in place for him.

I’m sorry to hear of your legal battles to get what your son is entitled to, this country is shockingly inadequate in their support of children with additional needs. Best of luck with it all.

Calhoun · 19-02-2020 8:43pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yes it may come down to resources. If i was given a cast iron guarantee that the child would get AIM''s or an SNA if he did another year of preschool then i would do it, but i can't get the guarantee i'm seeking. I'm just told to follow the application process again.

It would be defeatist if my counsel didn't say there was a good change of succeeding, they approached me with the evidence they had and told me their legal opinion via my solicitor, i did not know i could legally challenge the outcome of an AON on the grounds that the recommendations aren't being delivered. I hope to hear back by Friday, it has been adjourned each month since the case was entered in November.

As for the toileting issue, i have been told it would be up to me to go to the school and change him, again it's not something i have an issue with as in the entire time he has been in both creche and preschool, who do change him, he has never once done a dump, i don't mean to be vulgar in putting it that way, but he always waits until he gets home to do it. He has full control over his bowel, just not the bladder. Or as the preschool staff said, it may be a comfort thing as to why he only does it at home. The preschool said he is primary school material bar his speech and toilet training, hence the SNA is required.

That is why i am surprised about the AIM piece as it was nearly always made sound like optional to us, even more surprised that a child who is non-verbal and not toilet trained and more than likely a flight risk didnt get it.

I was wondering how the case would work as i honestly thought there was a bigger disconnect between the AON and the likes of AIMs. It is getting to the stage now where AON's can be used to challenge support from the HSE as in cases where support is needed ASAP and they aren't providing judges are enforcing it but i was not aware it could be done in the basis of aims. Will be interesting to see how it goes as you know how it is the HSE and department of education are scared ****less of precedence.

That is complete bull**** about you going to the school and changing him, thats what an SNA is for so whomever told you that is talking out their hole. The SNA going on the older requirements were for exactly those kind of needs for the additional needs your child could not do, infact kids that could go to the toilet and weren't so much a flight risk were having SNA hours cut as they only wanted to focus them on that.

If you can i would try get any of that in writing or email from the school.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 8:51pm

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Hi CorkTrucker,

I am a preschool teacher and very concerned to hear that the preschool are not fulfilling their obligations with regards to AIM for your child. Can I ask, was he granted AIM Level 7 support (i.e. an extra member of staff in the room)? How are they managing at the moment and how is your son coping with preschool without the support he should be getting? In my experience once AIM is granted, meetings with the Better Start coordinator and parents are set up so as to set some goals and expectations for the year ahead and reviewed each half-term.

I would absolutely agree with others here who have said that just gone 4 years of age nowadays is extremely young to be starting Primary School, regardless of it being in a small class as you describe. Do you know from the school what the age profile of your son’s class is likely to be? Some kids can be nearly 5 1/2 starting Junior Infants now which as you know is a big difference from a 4 year old. Im very surprised at the preschool saying he’ll be ready for Primary School too.

In my limited experience of the SNAs in mainstream Primary School, no child gets a one on one all the time, the resources just aren’t there unfortunately so your son would be likely sharing with other children in his class or the wider school, depending on the others’ needs.

Will he have done 2 years ECCE when he starts Primary School? I’m guessing not and you know he’s eligible for another year ECCE. Would you and your wife consider changing his preschool? To somewhere that will support him as they should, especially with regard to having the AIM recommendations in place for him.

I’m sorry to hear of your legal battles to get what your son is entitled to, this country is shockingly inadequate in their support of children with additional needs. Best of luck with it all.

Hi Shybride2016 and thanks for reaching out.

When the application was submitted it was on the basis of a level 7, the extra person as you rightly point out,however when AIM's asked for further details there was 3 staff in the room so they assigned a level 4 (mentoring), literally 2 weeks after this one of the staff resigned and was not replaced, so now there are 2 staff in the room, on many occasions just the 1, HSE regulation is 1 adult to 11 children, and this guideline is met, however when i protested to the preschool about reapplying to AIM's i was told it was firstly not possible, when i pressed further i was told not necessary, all of this despite the AON report stating it was a requirement for the child's needs. I had 1 solitary meeting with an AIM's Co-ordinator in late August 2019 and not a sound ever since where i am concerned, where the preschool are concerned there has been 2 meetings, the Co-ordinator said level 7 is needed but the powers that be in Dublin are refusing on the grounds that there is adequate staffing, when i rang them they declined to engage with me.

In regards the class he is going into, i know there will be at least 4 other boys all aged 4, one of these was born in December 2015 so will be 9 months older than him, the remaining 3 were all born in the same calendar year (2016), the remainder i have no knowledge of, i actually went to the same school myself as a child.

I would never expect complete 1-1 in primary school for him, he wouldn't need it, just with certain aspects.

He has done 1 year of Creche, at 2 days a week which i found ridiculous but it was all we were offered, and he is now in his first ECCE year, i have informed the preschool that he will not be staying with them for a second year. In relation to the children in his group, he mixes well, is never problematic towards other children and infact is very popular with at least 2 other children despite not being verbal.

As mentioned in an earlier post, if i had a cast iron guarantee on level 7 AIM's or an SNA in early start i would agree to it, they are not willing to give me the assurances, my wife is of the same opinion as myself.

Yes i'm exhausted from the legal argument. Part of the court case centre's around my child only being on the Cork/Kerry waiting lists which are the longest in Munster if not Ireland, 2/3 years minimum for occupational therapy & psychology with Cope Foundation is scandalous to say the least.

Cork Trucker · 19-02-2020 8:57pm

Calhoun wrote: »

That is why i am surprised about the AIM piece as it was nearly always made sound like optional to us, even more surprised that a child who is non-verbal and not toilet trained and more than likely a flight risk didnt get it.

I was wondering how the case would work as i honestly thought there was a bigger disconnect between the AON and the likes of AIMs. It is getting to the stage now where AON's can be used to challenge support from the HSE as in cases where support is needed ASAP and they aren't providing judges are enforcing it but i was not aware it could be done in the basis of aims. Will be interesting to see how it goes as you know how it is the HSE and department of education are scared ****less of precedence.

That is complete bull**** about you going to the school and changing him, thats what an SNA is for so whomever told you that is talking out their hole. The SNA going on the older requirements were for exactly those kind of needs for the additional needs your child could not do, infact kids that could go to the toilet and weren't so much a flight risk were having SNA hours cut as they only wanted to focus them on that.

If you can i would try get any of that in writing or email from the school.

I'm unsure if it is optional or not as this is my first experience of AIM's, but the AON report clearly states it is needed and he has not gotten it.

Yes indeed he is a flight risk without adult supervision, offers to toilet train him in preschool have been made but they were never more than offers.

The reason i am seeking judicial enforcement in regards AIM's is because the AON report clearly recommends it and it has not been given, someone in AIM's could be in proverbial hot water.

The biggest issue the preschool actually had with him was his obsession with water, it was so bad the plumber was called in to disable the taps, that aside he isn't problematic.

I will not back down from the HSE and their scaremongering of people, more parents need to bring them to court and stand up for what is right for their children and their needs, it is not something i will grow weary of.

Applying for an SNA

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