Controversial Irish Rail extensions

River Suir wrote: »

Extend the Northern line to Dublin Airport and quad track from Malahide to Connolly to allow for capacity. Start and finish all Dublin originated InterCity trains at Dublin Airport.

Totally agree (well, as you know, I have my own slightly wacky idea of using one of the port tunnel bores instead of quad tracking)... but either way, Dublin Airport should be connected to the mainline inter-city network.

This would not only impove access to the airport from Dublin city centre but from the whole country. It would literally transform it from 'Dublin Airport' (with a bus transfer) to 'Ireland Airport' (with regular rail connections).

I have another one for you... This one is defintely a controversial idea.

A train ferry from Dublin to Holyhead.

Train ferries are a dying breed, but last year i used one of the last train services to travel from Germany to Denmark by ferry - and there are a few more left in Europe, between mainland Italy and Sicily for example, and a privately run night train from Sweden to Berlin.

In fact our very own Stena line operates a train ferry from Sweden to Germany, although it is only used for freight, not passenger trains. The MV Mecklenburg Vorpommern operates the Rostock - Trellborg route and is very similar to the ships that operate Dublin - Holyhead, except one of the vehicle decks has 6 railway tracks. When no trains are carried, the deck is used to stow HGV trailers. It's a regular passenger car ferry not a cargo ship.

My idea is to use a similar vessel to run a train ferry service out of Dublin. Build a section of standard gague or dual gauge track the short distance from Dublin port to Docklands or Connolly station, along with new international station facilities. You could then run night trains directly from Dublin not only to London, but on through the channel tunnel to Paris and Brussels - imagine that, board a train in the evening in Dublin, settle in to a couchette or private sleeper comoartment, and wake up in the morning in Paris!

It could also obviously used for freight - both freight and passenger trains run across diffent gauges regularly, from both russian and iberian gauge to standard gague, either by swapping the bogies or with ajustable bogies. The trains in spain don't even need to stop, they just adjust to the new track gauge automatically! With a bogie swap in Dublin port, trains could continue to or from the rest of the Irish network. In theory you could run a freight train from anywhere in Ireland to as far away as China.

L1011 wrote: »

An extension of the Red Line to the passenger terminal(s) would be cheaper and more practical...

Freight would never use something that required that level of faffery and changes; they'd use dedicated container ships instead to a railhead on the continent. Also, the passenger ferry companies wouldn't want the lower yielding unaccompanied containers realistically - the express accompanied is what they take.

So its a passenger-only setup; and realistically the stay-in-the-train setup would probably give the RSC kittens and you'd be back to getting off the train and in to the lounge like you do with buses.

The Channel Tunnel was going to have sleeper trains (they built the rolling stock even; eventually sold to Canada) so that's probably cleared; although if being evaluated new now with the fire history there its unlikely they'd be allowed.

Ah yes, the infamous "Nightstar" trains. The rise of Ryanair and EasyJet were blamed for that debacle.



Anyway... on a parclical, realitic level of course I agree. This is even more of a fantasy than anything else I dreamed up. But on this thread topic of 'controvelsial rail extentions', I thought something bold, unusual, but ultimately grossly unrealistic was quite appropriate.


On a similar note, I have to say I think the luas extention you mentioned is unrealitic as the passenger numbers just don't exist to warrant it. Which ironically is exactly the thought process that led me to this idea - what 'outside the box', and radical ideas might entice people off the airlines and onto the sail and rail option...


But on a more idealistic, and (i like to think) visionary note, I have to disagree. I think that if enough genuine commitment and ambition was put in to a project like this there's no reason it wouldn't work. I genuinely think it could not only be sucessful, but could actually prove extremely popular.


The 'stay in the train' setup works. The snaltaget trains from Malo to Berlin operate like this, as do night trains from Rome to Sicily. Passengers have the option to stay in their railway compartments, or leave and go into the ship's upper decks. These are operational train ferries on the continent - snataget's service was so popular that until covid struck they planned on increasing it to a year round daily service.


I admit the Irish sea can be rough so an early evening departure would probably be better, which would allow passengers to settle in to bed on the approach to Holyhead rather than during the crossing - either way in a well designed setup it would be little different from a cabin on a lower deck of a regular car ferry.


In terms of freight, as I mentioned Stena Line already run such a service between Sweden and Germany so it clearly is viable, and if you visit the Poland/ Belarus border at Brest you'll see just how routine it is to change the bogies... there are regular freight trains from China to the UK now, that run across various gagues. Even if it was just to run container trains to a multimodal terminal at Dublin Port, I think there would be a market.


None of these are new ideas. They all exist, they are all operational. The only thing that is new and radical is the idea of using them in Ireland.

L1011 wrote: »

All the stay-in-the-train train ferry operations are ancient and grandfathered in. New things need to meet modern safety standards. I'm fairly sure an entirely new train ferry operation would not be approved. The main issues would be getting evacuation alerts in to the cabins and providing safe egress from the carriages; including for all forms of passengers with reduced mobility.

Train stations can't be built on curves anymore, for instance. That's most major Irish stations gone if we retro-applied standards; but of course we don't. Everything new has to meet the standards of now, even if they aren't applied elsewhere.

The freight ops are on specific routes where it makes sense - Ireland-UK and Ireland-Continent do not make sense. Its either trucks or container ferries; there is no market for something as slow as or slower than a container ferry with the costs of a truck ferry.


Additionally - have you used a sleeper train? The idea that you "settle in to bed" is... optimistic at least. I've done premium or first class on European sleepers and you don't get a solid nights sleep. Every shunting move (Swiss insisting on using their motive power for instance) wakes you up. Unless you're completely hammered. This is all in private rooms. Did couchettes when I was a lot younger and you barely sleep at all. You would need to be the soundest sleeper ever, or pissed, to stay asleep through a ferry load, unload or gauge change.

The last time I used a sleeper train was in October. I've used quite a few in recent years, and I always slept fine, but I accept that they're not for everyone. The private compartments you can get now are a huge leap forward from what I remember when I went inter-railing in my 20s, though, and there are some really promising developments. Austrian Railways' latest plans, including individual pods instead of couchettes, for example, look great. I had a shower on a swedish night train that rivals any european hotel.

Snaltaget startet operating the Berlin night express in the year 2000 - I don't think you can call that "grandfathered in", and these are modern ferries. But look, you're right, meeting modern standards would be a challenge. I really don't see how you couldn't hook up the train's communication system to the ship's, and even provide level boarding... especially if you were designing the ship from scratch. These are things that would improve the service. With modern technology and design I think you could come up with something that works.

If an old design doesn't meet modern standards, does that mean we should just scrap it and forget about it, or should we try and re-design it to modern standards?

You clearly don't like my Idea, though, and that's fine! It's a complete fantasy, like I said - and you may well be right that it's actually just unequivocally impossible. But that doesn't mean the possiblity shouldn't be looked in to at all. And above all it doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to imagine it. I can still dream. And I personally think that if it did exist it would be great.

I used to fly the Dublin to London route at least once everry two weeks, but am now trying to fly as little as possible, so a comfortable alternative to get to and from Dublin would be right up my street.


[putting on my finest Columbo voice]

just one more thing.......

Regarding rail freight. Until very recently I think I would have agreed with you 100%.

I didn't see any market for rail freight in Ireland at all, I felt the population density and size of the country meant that the market was doomed to be forever dominated by ro-ro ferries, lorry traffic and contaner ship transport only. It was only when someone in a converation on a more mainstream social media platform (literally about two weeks ago) pointed out to me the recent sucess of the (privately contracted) Ballina to Dublin port freight service, and the announcement of a new service between Ballina and Waterford (due to commence this year) that I started to think there might be more potential there than I thought.

These routes are making a profit and have seen increses in frequency.

As I'm a bit of an eco-warrior, even before that I tried to come up with any idea I could to try and get freight traffic in, and in and out of, Ireland off the road. I thought some sort of 'rolling road' might work... something like the eurotunnel shuttles, or those used in Switzerland. The big problem with these would be meeting the loading gague in both the UK and Ireland. But I thought lowloader wagons, carrying HGV trailers only, and designed to fit the trailer wheels in a lowered section between the bogies might fit. This central section could rotate 45° to facilitate loading and unloading. One of my google wormholes revealed that the idea had been patented, but I don't think it's ever been used.

You could have a network of terminals across continental Europe, the UK and Ireland, where tractor units drop off and collect trailers, with the bulk of long distance continental travel being done by rail, but retaining the ease of road hauliage for end to end delivery and collection.

I totally agree that these ideas are probably totally unrealistic. But surely that's the point, especially on a thread like this?

Euppy wrote: »

Don't night trains go very slow to save fuel? Heuston to Tralee is 4 hours on a normal train. I dont see why 10pm to 6am isn't feasible. Have breakfast served 6am to 7am. People can then go directly to work on the monday morning

Not much of an idea really - if you're a tourist you miss the scenery on the way down while you sleep and what work would others be going to in Killarney? Minimum wage hotel work or jarveying?

L1011 wrote: »

An entire fleet of modern sleeper cars with showers would need to be working 7 days to have any chance of being financially viable (there would/should be subsidy if it makes sense but it can't cover the entire cost); not two nights a week. A company like Newrest/Wagons Lits won't do the operations for you on anything but a 6 or 7 day schedule; and Irish Rail sure as hell wouldn't operate it themselves seeing as they already contract out cleaning, catering, security etc.

The only route that might, MIGHT have 7 day a week demand is Belfast and its also too short to bother with really.
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True. The only domestic night trains that are likely to be financially viable any time soon are expensive tourist trains like the belmond royal hibernian.

Cool info guys. Good to learn stuff as a new appreciator of all things rail!

Euppy wrote: »

I'd really like to see a sleeper train that goes to Killarney/Tralee every weekend. Think it would attract enough interest. If enough interest you could start it in Belfast with one stop in Dublin.

Jaysus it's only going to Killarney, not Vladivostok.

I've used the 1 am bus from cork city centre to Dublin airport a few times , and it's been packed ( they've had to have a second coach on ) , it can be a bit chaotic , picking up in the quays in cork , but it got me ( comfortably ) to the airport for a 7 am flight ,and I slept the entire way up ,
Probably easier than the train as I just stayed on the coach on Dublin city centre and groggily got off at the airport ...

L1011 wrote: »

I'd think that when life returns to normal there is probably a position for say a 3 or 4am departure from Cork and Belfast to Dublin at the very least; even if that's the extent of overnight long distance services.

Dublin Commuter should be 24h.

Yeah I'd agree with the early departures although later services I think are more of priority to be honest. Taking Waterford for example 6:30pm(ish) either direction is a bit of a joke. The last services either direction could easily do a return service and still arrive before midnight. Galway is another service that could be stretched out to a later last service of 9:30/10:00pm in both directions.

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

The railway from waterford to rosslare should be reopened as well as the line that went up to Wexford town. Keep most of the stations along the line closed apart from wellingtonbridge and maybe campile. Run trains at decent times as well so it will be useful for people

the line from rosslare up to wexford town is still open.