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Random thoughts on measuring Red Light Jumping

13

Comments

  • #62
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,415 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    no, because it's already explicit in law. you need to be able to produce a driving licence if requested.

    I've heard that the Gardai are requesting drivers licenses from those they stop on eScooters, telling them they are using a vehicle without tax or insurance..


  • #63
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    RayCun wrote: »
    You don't need to have your licence with you when you're in the car. They'll tell you to bring it to the station next day.

    I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car


  • #64
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    I've heard that the Gardai are requesting drivers licenses from those they stop on eScooters, telling them they are using a vehicle without tax or insurance..

    Legally they are.
    eScooters are powered vehicles, and don't fall under the exemption for pedelecs.


  • #65
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    RayCun wrote: »
    I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car
    and just beware that if you *are* stopped in a car and do not have your licence on you, and are breathalysed - you will need to blow under the limit for learner drivers.
    as you are not able to prove you are a fully qualified driver, the unqualified limit is applied, so the garda may order you out of the car.


  • #66
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,415 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    RayCun wrote: »
    Legally they are.
    eScooters are powered vehicles, and don't fall under the exemption for pedelecs.

    Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?


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  • #67
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    failing that test means you fail.
    passing that test does not however qualify it as a pedelec, it's just one of the basic tests they can apply.


  • #68
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I know Irish aren't fond of national ids and I'm fine with that but it does mean people can do whatever they feel like on the roads and dump rubbish wherever they feel like it.

    Do you think flytippers will leave their ID card at the scene of the crime? :confused:


  • #69
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,120 ✭✭✭plodder


    RayCun wrote: »
    I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car
    That's been the (letter of the) law for a long time. It's a bit of an annoyance for two car families when you might end up driving the other car, and you still have the old style license. So, I think there is often a bit of latitude given. I was accompanying my daughter once when she was a learner, and we were stopped. So, by rights the guard needed to see the license, rather than just proof of identity but he let us go.

    I wasn't aware of that provision where a guard could confiscate a bike if not satisfied about a cyclist's identity. I think it's quite reasonable and if anything, deals with this notion that cyclists are unaccountable.


  • #70
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    buffalo wrote: »
    Do you think flytippers will leave their ID card at the scene of the crime? :confused:

    There is plenty of scum who drop their cigarette buds, chewing gums, wrappings or their dog waste anywhere and in full view of wardens. Ireland is terribly littered and similar to red light jumping it is just accepted and dealt with a shrug. Because apparently nothing can be done.


  • #71
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vatJ4NiglA


    not solely powered, guv!


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  • #72
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    meeeeh wrote: »
    There is plenty of scum who drop their cigarette buds, chewing gums, wrappings or their dog waste anywhere and in full view of wardens. Ireland is terribly littered and similar to red light jumping it is just accepted and dealt with a shrug. Because apparently nothing can be done.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/over-7000-litter-fines-were-issued-around-the-country-last-year-4394105-Dec2018/

    How many littler wardens have we got in the country?


  • #73
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    buffalo wrote: »
    https://www.thejournal.ie/over-7000-litter-fines-were-issued-around-the-country-last-year-4394105-Dec2018/

    How many littler wardens have we got in the country?

    I don't know but anyone who hiked anywhere in Central or Northern Europe will notice the difference and how certain things just aren't accepted.


  • #74
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?
    They are still regarded as mechanically propelled vehicles regardless of how someone sets off!


  • #75
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't know but anyone who hiked anywhere in Central or Northern Europe will notice the difference and how certain things just aren't accepted.

    Do you think it's the ID cards that make the difference?


  • #76
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,415 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    They are still regarded as mechanically propelled vehicles regardless of how someone sets off!

    The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.


  • #77
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    buffalo wrote: »
    Do you think it's the ID cards that make the difference?

    I don't know maybe Irish people are just filthy?

    That was sarcasm btw but if fines were issued to correct names and addresses and collected at the source by revenue (wages, welfare) it might make a difference.


  • #78
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    So that's one "safety" issue. Have you any more?
    I break 2 lights regularly for safety, taking off just before they turn green. It is very common, loads of other cyclists do the same on one of the lights at whites cross on the N11. This is for safety to get ahead of the traffic from behind which can be right up behind you, I had my chain snap a few times taking off and was glad I was that bit ahead. I doubt many are doing it to save the 1-2seconds.

    Most RLJ I see is to save time or not break momentum though, and the vast majority of it I see is done safely.
    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.
    they pretty much equate them to low power lightweight motorbikes.

    Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
    https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters, unicycles and skateboards in Ireland?

    Electric vehicles or any other Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (MPV) do not need to be taxed or insured in Ireland as long as they don’t go over 45 mph. All our products travel below 45 mph. However, if any electric vehicles go over 45 mph, then those would need to get tax and insurance like a regular car or motorbike.


  • #79
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,415 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    rubadub wrote: »
    .Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
    https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

    I'm almost sure that's a misprint and they mean 45kph.


  • #80
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    rubadub wrote: »
    Some sellers are telling customers

    gosh, I wonder why?


  • #81
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.
    Have you raised this with your TDs?
    rubadub wrote: »
    I break 2 lights regularly for safety, taking off just before they turn green. It is very common, loads of other cyclists do the same on one of the lights at whites cross on the N11. This is for safety to get ahead of the traffic from behind which can be right up behind you, I had my chain snap a few times taking off and was glad I was that bit ahead. I doubt many are doing it to save the 1-2seconds.
    Understood but I don't believe that this is what was being referred to.
    rubadub wrote: »
    they pretty much equate them to low power lightweight motorbikes.

    Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
    https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/
    ...but the sellers are (AFAIK) mis-selling as a max speed isn't listed within the Road Traffic Acts.
    The 1961 Act states:
    “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—
    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,
    (b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,
    but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;

    (2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.
    I'm not aware if this was updated.


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  • #82
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,415 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Have you raised this with your TDs?
    .

    Start a one man campaign? Nah.


  • #83
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    The 1961 Act states:
    (2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

    This suggests that removal of the battery from your scooter renders it no longer an MPV. So you could: remove the battery, place it in a backpack and run wires to the soles of your shoes and stand on suitable contact points on the scooter plate. "No Guard, it's just a scooter. Try it out yourself"...


  • #84
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i posted this over on the commuting and transport forum earlier, was a slightly odd situation to see a driver berating a cyclist for *not* breaking a red:

    Yeah, people break that one all the time. I can't understand why it's not a solid green with a filter at the end. There's often nothing coming from the inbound direction, you can see for a few hundred meters straight ahead, yet you have to wait for the filter.


  • #85
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,120 ✭✭✭plodder


    Effects wrote: »
    Yeah, people break that one all the time. I can't understand why it's not a solid green with a filter at the end. There's often nothing coming from the inbound direction, you can see for a few hundred meters straight ahead, yet you have to wait for the filter.
    I either cycle or drive through there every day. It has to be one of the most lawless junctions in the city. The reason it's a filter I think, is that while there might not be traffic coming straight across from Howth direction, there is nearly always traffic turning left onto Alfie Byrne (that has to yield) so the filter gives them some priority but they end up having to yield to the illegally right-turning cars. A while back I reported a lunatic who was doing this but additionally by driving up the inside lane and cutting into the top of the turn right turn lane at the last second.


  • #86
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,120 ✭✭✭plodder


    Rechuchote wrote: »
    I see plenty of people doing this. Oddly, a garda fined someone for wheeling his bicycle across the lights - "evading traffic lights" when the lights were green for walking but red for traffic recently. I thought it was a crazy, spiteful fine.
    Was the cyclist walking their bike? If you dismount and walk around the red light, that's perfectly legal, is it not?


  • #87
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭storker


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    At the same time I suspect the number of cyclists RLJ’ing will be quite small anyway.

    I did a quick tally at 4 or 5 junctions on my way home one evening just out of curiosity. 50%.

    Anecdotally, when I cross roads in town as a pedestrian, cyclists that actually stop and wait for the green light are the exception, not the rule.


  • #88
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I don't break red lights on my daily 80 km round trip..... there are none!!


  • #89
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Rechuchote wrote: »
    I see plenty of people doing this. Oddly, a garda fined someone for wheeling his bicycle across the lights - "evading traffic lights"

    I do this all the time at Georges St/Dame St junction. If you on Dame St as the lights go red you have to deal with pedestrian lights, then traffic from Georges St.
    Much easier to just get off and walk across, yielding to pedos.


  • #90
    clod71
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭clod71


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It comes down to the person, though. If I'm gonna jump red lights, then I'll do it whether im on a bike or in a car.

    That's nonsense...

    EDIT: I often break lights while walking or when on the bike, but I never do with a car... I'm the same person, but it's not the same thing.


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  • #91
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Ryland Hissing Tailwind wrote: »
    I don't break red lights on my daily 80 km round trip..... there are none!!

    That's a fair old distance on the bike you're getting.


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