To study GEM?

jumpinship · 16-05-2015 11:41am #1

Just wondering if anyone out there is in a similar situation or has any advice?

As many of you know the Gamsat results were released earlier this week. I got a better result than expected and I'm pretty sure I've secured a place (sorry to those who didn't do as well as they wished - it really is a gruelling test!)
I know i should be delighted however instead I've been plagued with uncertainity the last few days. I know I'd live to be a doctor but I'm not sure I want it enough to make all the sacrifices that will be necessary. I will be 28 when I start, 32 by the time I graduate. I do want to have children at some point and I'm really stressing that by choosing to study medicine this may not be realistic. The crazy working hours of junior doctors in Ireland doesn't appeal to me at all. I've been driving myself mad the last few days with all these thoughts and uncertainty!...

Sorry for the rant but would love to hear some of your opinions. Is anyone else having doubts?

Anita Blow · 16-05-2015 12:46pm

I've been having the same thoughts since the results came out. Ultimately though, all I've ever wanted to do is Medicine and I know that if I didn't take the chance now, I'd live to regret it.
Strides have been made in recent years in terms of implementation of the EWTD. While more needs to be done, the increasing pressure of NCHDs leaving the country due to infavourable conditions as well as improving finances in the health budget should hopefully alleviate some pressure in the future. You never know what the work environment will be like in 4 years time.

jumpinship · 18-05-2015 12:06pm

Thanks for your reply Anita! That is very true, things may change in four years time...

I guess I'm just doubting myself now that it really is a possibility and not just a dream to study medicine.

SillyBeans · 18-05-2015 12:12pm

Hi, I'm sort of in the same boat.

There are two very different career paths that I'm looking into, both for different reasons. The main issue I'm worried about is funding myself through the degree and then the huge amount of debt afterwards. I know I'm not happy in my current job though and I'd hate to wake up in 10 years and regret not going for it. I suppose the debt is just like having a mortgage and I work crazy hours as it is so I'm sure I'd manage it. Plus, even with the repayments, in a few years I'd still be earning more than I do in my current job and I'm comfortable with money now. Might work for a few more years to save a bit more (and do up my house that I've just bought...fingers crossed for the Lotto!!)

I am worried about the family aspect too though. I don't want to spend my life working constantly either and I'd hate to put off having kids only to realise I'd left it too late. I do keep thinking though, if for some reason I found out I couldn't have kids, would I regret not doing medicine then? I don't want to not do it just in case I have kiddies. There are plenty of doctors who are parents so I'm sure we'd be ok. It's just so scary now that it's close to becoming a reality!!! I sometimes think it would be much easier if we were given a job and had no choice in the matter :P

jumpinship · 18-05-2015 12:41pm

It's very reassuring to hear there are others in the same position as myself!

I also think it would be much easier to be handed a job - at least then if things didn't work out there would be someone else to blame besides myself!

I considered doing medicine three years ago but decided to follow another path instead. I am almost finished training in my current field and on the surface it is a great job: it's challenging, I'm continually learning, its logical problem solving work which really suits the way I think, the pay is ok and the hours are great but I can't shake the feeling that I don't love it. I have no passion for the day to day work and I can't remember the last time I was excited to go to work. I do regret not applying for medicine years ago but I guess the fact that I already regret not going for it before I will most likely regret if I don't go for it this time. As you said SillyBeans if for some reason I can't have kids, and chose not to do medicine specifically to have them I'm pretty sure I would regret it!

There are so many things to take into account but SillyBeans I wouldn't let the money put you off or delay doing it. It is very daunting and very expensive but there are loans available and ultimately once you qualify you should be able to pay it back easily enough over a few years. Internationally the majority of doctors have massive student loans and the Irish that study medicine as undergrads straight after school and graduate with little to no loans are very lucky! I definitely wouldn't say no to winning the lotto though!

SillyBeans · 18-05-2015 12:53pm

If I win the euromillions we'll go halfsies and we can pay people to have babies for us! Takes 'too posh to push' to a whole new level!

I'll be the same age as you if I do it. 28 starting, 32 finishing. Sure we're still only babies ourselves! Doctors in the US are usually only a few years younger when they start aren't they? We still have a good 30 odd years of work ahead of us.

I think sometimes it just helps to talk to someone else who's thinking of doing it. It's so different from the majority of other courses that chatting to friends sometimes doesn't help much because they have a 'ah sure it'll be grand' attitude because they don't actually realise that it's a lifestyle and not just a job. A lot depends on the specialty too. If you were a GP or say a dermatologist you probably would have no issue with the hours after the initial training years

Anita Blow · 18-05-2015 1:20pm

I do think the hours will improve though. There's been such emphasis in recent years on EWTD and poor working conditions driving doctors away that it can only improve. Also AFAIK the Dept of Finance is considering tax relief for grad med loan repayments which effectively reduces the loan repayments by ~30%.

Also they way I'm looking at it is that the only people who have graduated now are from 2008-2010 when €100,000 loans were available. They most certainly are unsustainable and a considerable burden, but the loans we'll be taking out are far less. Almost half that amount.

SillyBeans · 18-05-2015 1:24pm

Yeah repayments are approx €750 or so a month aren't they? That's fairly doable, especially after a year or two. I'm worried that salaries will be cut further though but there's always the 'work abroad in the middle of deepest darkest Canada' for 100,000s a year option!

Anita Blow · 18-05-2015 1:32pm

Can't see them being cut. With the budgetary environment improvement and brain drain in the medical sector I can only see it remaining the same or improving.

souter · 18-05-2015 3:29pm

jumpinship wrote: »

I will be 28 when I start, 32 by the time I graduate.

Young feller, I'll be 49 when I start, graduate at 53, Dr at 54, scrabbling around for first proper job at 56.

Actually did the the gamsat as a sort of a challenge, then surprised myself with a high score. It says something about the pull of medicine that I even find myself now thinking of such a thing, what with comfortable job and young family.

If only I'd gone for it 10 years ago when I was a mere strippling of 39!

jumpinship · 18-05-2015 4:48pm

Ha thanks Souter! Dr at 54... you'll still have over 10 years of work in you, more likely 15+!

'If I win the euromillions we'll go halfsies and we can pay people to have babies for us! Takes 'too posh to push' to a whole new level!' (Sorry no idea how to quote on this!)

Deal!!

Anita i hope your right and things do change for NCHD.

sReq | uTeK · 19-05-2015 12:26pm

souter wrote: »

Young feller, I'll be 49 when I start, graduate at 53, Dr at 54, scrabbling around for first proper job at 56.

Actually did the the gamsat as a sort of a challenge, then surprised myself with a high score. It says something about the pull of medicine that I even find myself now thinking of such a thing, what with comfortable job and young family.

If only I'd gone for it 10 years ago when I was a mere strippling of 39!

Fair play to you, just shows you're never to late.

I'll be 32 starting and the thoughts of spending 6 years getting to where I want to potentially have 30 years of enjoyment is well worth it.

15 years in a profession you'll enjoy and look back on your life saying "I did it" kudos to you sir.

souter · 19-05-2015 2:54pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Fair play to you, just shows you're never to late.

I'll be 32 starting and the thoughts of spending 6 years getting to where I want to potentially have 30 years of enjoyment is well worth it.

15 years in a profession you'll enjoy and look back on your life saying "I did it" kudos to you sir.

Sadly, the harsh reality is it is unlikely I will be following through with this idealism - my point being is that if I can even countenance such a daydream, you people with 20 more years ahead + less encumbrances really should be seizing the opportunity.

Now get off my lawn.

Ballet17 · 17-07-2015 12:01am

Hi everyone, I know it's been a while since anyone commented on this thread, but I've just stumbled across it and thought I'd leave a little message (in case anyone is still following

). I just wanted to say that after reading some negative comments on other threads on boards about life in Medicine (not sure if these were just trolls or what...) but I was starting to feeling like many of you have stated, and stress about this decision and the years to come. It's annoying because I was so excited all along, and like many of you have wanted this for years. But after coming across this and reading your comments, I have to say it's made me feel a lot better, to hear ye're words of advice and also see that I'm not the only one that has felt this way. So thanks! And best of luck with the offers in a few short weeks!

souter · 06-08-2015 7:20pm

Got an offer from RCSI.
It lapsed a couple hours ago.
I'm gutted, but it was the correct decision.
I've tortured myself over the past week oscillating wildly between facing reality (most of the time, at least superficially) and desperately trying to justify sacrificing our pension, my kids college funds, our family, to scratch this itch.

So if you don't want to being facing this dark teatime of the soul at age 49, I'd advise you to seize the opportunity while it exists.

AndrewTheCat · 07-08-2015 4:17pm

souter wrote: »

Got an offer from RCSI.
It lapsed a couple hours ago.
I'm gutted, but it was the correct decision.
I've tortured myself over the past week oscillating wildly between facing reality (most of the time, at least superficially) and desperately trying to justify sacrificing our pension, my kids college funds, our family, to scratch this itch.

So if you don't want to being facing this dark teatime of the soul at age 49, I'd advise you to seize the opportunity while it exists.

You made the right decision. You most likely wouldn't survive intern year. It's a young mans game. I say that with the utmost respect for you. Too many horror stories of people doing graduate medicine. this is before we even get into discussion about you wasting tax payers money on someone that could be spent on a young hungry bull who can offer three decades of service minimum to hse

SillyBeans · 07-08-2015 10:38pm

That's a bit harsh!

j.mcdrmd · 07-08-2015 10:59pm

Don't shoot the messenger. Check out what is being said maybe?

Ballet17 · 07-08-2015 11:27pm

True or not, whether it was meant to or not, that comment came across as a series of little digs directed to a person who had just stated that they were gutted to have had to make such a difficult decision. What a great attribute for a doctor to have.

j.mcdrmd · 08-08-2015 11:16am

souter wrote: »

Got an offer from RCSI.
It lapsed a couple hours ago.
I'm gutted, but it was the correct decision.
I've tortured myself over the past week oscillating wildly between facing reality (most of the time, at least superficially) and desperately trying to justify sacrificing our pension, my kids college funds, our family, to scratch this itch.

So if you don't want to being facing this dark teatime of the soul at age 49, I'd advise you to seize the opportunity while it exists.

You made the right decision imo. Sacrificing a pension, kids college funds and most especially your family to scratch an itch would be difficult to live with.

There are "kids", with honours degrees (thrown in the bin on their way out the door), asking their families to make that sacrifice.

Careful with the kids college funds.

j.mcdrmd · 08-08-2015 11:37am

jumpinship wrote: »

I am almost finished training in my current field and on the surface it is a great job: it's challenging, I'm continually learning, its logical problem solving work which really suits the way I think, the pay is ok and the hours are great but I can't shake the feeling that I don't love it. I have no passion for the day to day work and I can't remember the last time I was excited to go to work.

That sounds great, it will probably grow on you, if not you will have money and time for family life, friends and recreation. Don't throw that away lightly.

sReq | uTeK · 08-08-2015 1:43pm

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger. Check out what is being said maybe?

Seriously are you and Andrew here to hijack every thread and enstill negative thoughts as frequently as possible. Im beginning to think its the same account, whatever nonsense he posts is quickly replied to by yourself with more nonsense.

sReq | uTeK · 08-08-2015 1:46pm

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

That sounds great, it will probably grow on you, if not you will have money and time for family life, friends and recreation. Don't throw that away lightly.

Again, another post trying to deter someone from doing something that they would potentially relish.

Its pathetic at this stage.

AndrewTheCat · 08-08-2015 2:15pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Again, another post trying to deter someone from doing something that they would potentially relish.

Its pathetic at this stage.

What is your particular issue?
Unfortunately the world of graduate medicine and postr graduate training and employment in the hse is not the land of milk and honey. I've personally experienced this through my programme and through relatives who work and have worked for the hse.
There are many people attempting to go down the road here with just the ideal 'I wanna be a doctor and help people' with very little knowledge or information beyond that. Just check out the enough is enough fb page. I'm lucky I have close relatives who can advise me to get usmle done and get out of here asap. Post graduate training here even at spr level is a farce.
If you are willing to emigrate then get your usmle done quickly and get out. If you hope to have a career here in Ireland after your degree you are in for a big shock. Just ask any graduate medicine student one or two years post degree how they are finding life being pinned to the collar with debt , working illegal hours and being trained in how to put in cannula and carry charts

j.mcdrmd · 08-08-2015 6:25pm

There seems to be a lot of GEM threads that suffer from groupthink.

The Symptoms of Groupthink
Janis identified eight different "symptoms" that indicate groupthink:
1. Illusions of invulnerability lead members of the group to be overly optimistic and engage in risk-taking.
2. Unquestioned beliefs lead members to ignore possible moral problems and ignore consequences of individual and group actions.
3. Rationalizing prevents members from reconsidering their beliefs and causes them to ignore warning signs.
4. Stereotyping leads members of the in-group to ignore or even demonize out-group members who may oppose or challenge the groups ideas.
5. Self-censorship causes people who might have doubts to hide their fears or misgivings.
6. "Mindguards" act as self-appointed censors to hide problematic information from the group.
7. Illusions of unanimity lead members to believe that everyone is in agreement and feels the same way.
8. Direct pressure to conform is often placed on members who pose questions, and those who question the group are often seen as disloyal or traitorous.

I don't think that GEM is a bad for everyone or that all GEMs are bad Doctors, I know some great ones. However, this is not for everyone and requires a serious investment in terms of time, money and opportunity cost. It suits a very small minority imo.

Just to address 1 point, Doctors sometimes are forced to 'double rent'. What do Doctors do when they are posted to Cork, Kilkenny, or Donegal for 6 months for example but they have to sign a 12 month lease to rent a place in Dublin because that is where their first 6 month posting is? What do Doctors do if they have a family who live, work, attend school or creche, are in sports clubs etc. but they are posted from one end of the country to the other?

souter · 09-08-2015 1:15pm

For what it's worth Andrew and jrcmd are vindicating my decision, so I don't think they should be considered unduly harsh (apart from the dig about wasting tax-payers money).

The way I was able to come to peace with myself was to turn the tables -imagine 8 years hence, an overworked NCHD with zero chance of advancement other than general practise, was offered half a million quid + a much easier job which they would still enjoy.

I suspect this hypothetical individual would jump at the chance.

Banaba · 13-09-2015 9:12pm

Sorry to hijack the thread here but I too am wondering should I go for GEM. I am currently studying nursing because I didn't meet the requirements for medicine but I am already looking at the grad entry when I'm finished only thing is I'll be about 30 when I'm trying.

On average what age are people applying for the GEM course? Also how long have you been studying for the GAMSAT before taking the exam?

johnk123 · 14-09-2015 11:49am

Banaba wrote: »

Sorry to hijack the thread here but I too am wondering should I go for GEM. I am currently studying nursing because I didn't meet the requirements for medicine but I am already looking at the grad entry when I'm finished only thing is I'll be about 30 when I'm trying.

On average what age are people applying for the GEM course? Also how long have you been studying for the GAMSAT before taking the exam?

I am 23 and will be 23 sitting the gamsat in March for the first time. I too was worried about being too old, although some people may laugh at that statement!

From what I have heard and from the people I've spoken to, there are people of all ages in GEM courses across the country, so I think the age stigma should be the least of our worries!

Wilhelmet · 15-09-2015 7:47pm

Banaba wrote: »

Sorry to hijack the thread here but I too am wondering should I go for GEM. I am currently studying nursing because I didn't meet the requirements for medicine but I am already looking at the grad entry when I'm finished only thing is I'll be about 30 when I'm trying.

On average what age are people applying for the GEM course? Also how long have you been studying for the GAMSAT before taking the exam?

Hey Banaba,

I was 30 when I started, and in the final year now. Trust me, there are loads of people at your age, and older, so don't worry one bit about that. Also, it's such a cliche, but the years literally fly by....and I have never regretted doing it for a second. It's a hard slog, true, but you find your rhythm, and it actually can become fun. My previous career was intense hours-wise, so it hasn't really phased me, as I'm sure would be similar for a nurse.

AndrewThe Cat, your comment above was said with the grace, empathy and consideration of a breeze block. "You most likely wouldn't survive intern year." Whether you are right or wrong, you frankly don't know enough to state something like that, and it's highly presumptuous of you to consider yourself such an 'authority' on who or what has 'what it takes'. If it was just that comment, I wouldn't mind, but there's been plenty from you on these forums, and the one above is sadly indicative of the rest of them. As Ballet17 and sReq have pointed out, give it a rest. You make yourself sound like the kind of medical relic from the 1970's that schools actively try NOT to produce these days.

APower79 · 14-01-2019 12:15am

souter wrote: »

Young feller, I'll be 49 when I start, graduate at 53, Dr at 54, scrabbling around for first proper job at 56.

Actually did the the gamsat as a sort of a challenge, then surprised myself with a high score. It says something about the pull of medicine that I even find myself now thinking of such a thing, what with comfortable job and young family.

If only I'd gone for it 10 years ago when I was a mere strippling of 39!

Fair play to you!!! I’m 39 with kids and would love to do it. I’ll regret it if I don’t but is it realistic with young kids? I figure the course is basically like a full time job with study in between which could be after their bedtime and weekends. Sometimes I think I’m crazy and others I think it’s manageable?!

To study GEM?

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