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Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

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  • Options
    #242
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    It was good to read this
    Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, Paschal Donohoe has welcomed the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund (ISIF) announcement of its divestment from 38 global fossil fuel companies.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/donohoe-ireland-to-withdraw-public-money-from-investment-in-fossil-fuels-895625.html


  • Options
    #243
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Seems 2 of the 3 generators are back online.... Coal accounting for ~12% of todays generation. :o

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/moneypoint-furnaces-fired-up-after-shutdown-37752322.html


  • Options
    #244
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    KCross wrote: »
    Seems 2 of the 3 generators are back online.... Coal accounting for ~12% of todays generation. :o

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/moneypoint-furnaces-fired-up-after-shutdown-37752322.html

    Boo!
    It is also not clear what will replace the coal-burning portion of the plant when it is decommissioned with different plans under consideration, including its transformation into a biofuel station

    We're drowning in a sea of plastic! Why there was a waste incinerator built on prime city centre land is beyond me. Ship it all to Moneypoint instead.


  • Options
    #245
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46


    As stated earlier, Moneypoint is back online so the 5% Coal above is the average over the month but it wasnt online for the full month, its actually up to 10%+ right now.

    A week of sub-zero temperatures for the week ahead will I'm sure drive fossil fuel usage up.

    Interesting point in the stats as well is that gCO2/kW back in Sep was 332 when coal was at 5%. It then dropped to mid ~200s when Moneypoint was offline for a few months and is now back up to 341 when its back online. Its a reasonable indication of what our gCO2/kWh figure would be if Moneypoint stayed offline.


  • Options
    #246
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Boo!



    We're drowning in a sea of plastic! Why there was a waste incinerator built on prime city centre land is beyond me. Ship it all to Moneypoint instead.
    Adjacent, to a poo factory isn’t prime city centre land. Nor is adjacent to two other power plants , scrap metal yard.

    It’s also where the waste is and reduces carbon emissions by not sending trucks down the country.

    Also if Dublin City do their job the waste to energy plant will be providing a heat source for district heating


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  • Options
    #247
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ted1 wrote: »
    Adjacent, to a poo factory isn’t prime city centre land. Nor is adjacent to two other power plants , scrap metal yard.

    It’s also where the waste is and reduces carbon emissions by not sending trucks down the country.

    The most expensive land in the country is within a 2 mile radius of the Covanta plant.

    I didn't say send it by trucks. I said ship it.. Call at Waterford, Cork and Limerick on the way. Or if that's not good enough, extend the rail line.


  • Options
    #248
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The most expensive land in the country is within a 2 mile radius of the Covanta plant.

    I didn't say send it by trucks. I said ship it.. Call at Waterford, Cork and Limerick on the way. Or if that's not good enough, extend the rail line.

    2 miles is a long way. It’s an industrial that has a poo factory , power plants, cement factories , still breaker yards, container yards.
    These are all required to make a city work


  • Options
    #249
    ewj1978
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭ewj1978


    ship it where exactly?


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    #250
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35


    New record... 56% of night time charging over the last month was renewable!

    There has been an increase in the number of anti-EV folks posting recently about how EV's arent really zero emissions and its just shifting it to the power plant. This table and the new high of 56% shows how ridiculous that argument is.

    0% of an ICE is renewable!


  • Options
    #251
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    KCross wrote: »

    0% of an ICE is renewable!

    Doesn’t petrol contain 10% biofuel? So therefore 10% of ICE is renewable


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  • Options
    #252
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ted1 wrote: »
    Doesn’t petrol contain 10% biofuel? So therefore 10% of ICE is renewable

    5%


  • Options
    #253
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ted1 wrote: »
    Doesn’t petrol contain 10% biofuel? So therefore 10% of ICE is renewable

    It’s an interesting point but is biofuel considered renewable? Wouldn’t there be emissions and use of machinery etc to create the biofuel?

    Renewable to me is wind,sun, geothermal etc.


  • Options
    #254
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KCross wrote: »
    It’s an interesting point but is biofuel considered renewable? Wouldn’t there be emissions and use of machinery etc to create the biofuel?

    Renewable to me is wind,sun, geothermal etc.
    Personally, I would consider biofuel to be non-renewable as it displaced food production in most locations where the original crops are grown.


  • Options
    #255
    Zenith74
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Zenith74


    Renewable has kinda become synonymous with green/clean recently hasn't it, but originally it was more related to the fact that when all the dinosaur juice is gone, it's gone. Whereas we can keep planting more trees to make wood for burning, or grain to make bio fuel so these are 'renewable'. Doesn't make biofuel a good idea though!


  • Options
    #256
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    KCross wrote: »
    Update to OP

    There has been an increase in the number of anti-EV folks posting recently about how EV's arent really zero emissions and its just shifting it to the power plant. This table and the new high of 56% shows how ridiculous that argument is.

    0% of an ICE is renewable!

    If the production of fuel for ICE vehicles is to be taken into account when reckoning on how emissive they are per 100Kms, then of course the emissions produced in generating the fuel for EVs must also be taken into account.

    EVs are not zero of course, but the fuel for them is becoming greener every year which helps greatly, as your figures show.

    How does a completed (on the road) EV compare with an ICE with regard to this (before any fuel is added)?
    I have no idea TBH, which is why I ask.


  • Options
    #257
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43


    Interesting that coal is still <5%. I thought with moneypoint back online they'd be at full tilt with that plant (10-15%).


  • Options
    #258
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I believe the issue is the cost of carbon on the ETS market. It is going up, so coal is no longer so attractive.

    https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/co2-emissionsrechte

    The bit of coal (or more likely the presence of extra capacity) does seem to keep nighttime prices down.


  • Options
    #259
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I believe the issue is the cost of carbon on the ETS market. It is going up, so coal is no longer so attractive.

    https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/co2-emissionsrechte

    The bit of coal (or more likely the presence of extra capacity) does seem to keep nighttime prices down.

    If you dont mind, can you explain how to interpret that chart, specifically how it affects the market here and moneypoint.


  • Options
    #260
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    KCross wrote: »
    If you dont mind, can you explain how to interpret that chart, specifically how it affects the market here and moneypoint.

    Essentially, as I understand it, if you want to emit carbon to generate electricity, you have to buy a ‘right’ through the emissions trading system (ETS). Theee are only so many rights because of an arrangement called ‘cap and trade’. This does not mean that you have to wear a funny hat to the shops. Rather it means there is a cap (maximum) on the amount of CO2 allowed to be emitted, and if you want to emit CO2, you have to compete to get access to the amount of rights allowed under the cap.

    The ETS was a rather moribund backwater until the last year or so when prices started to go up. This is what the graph illustrates.

    The increasing ETS price essentially makes electricity from dirtier technologies more expensive with coal getting the greatest hike because it is the dirtiest.

    So just because coal is cheap to buy it doesn’t necessarily mean it is cheap to burn.

    Now I am not the expert on this. But this seems worth reading.

    https://www.carbontracker.org/reports/carbon-countdown/


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    #261
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The increasing ETS price essentially makes electricity from dirtier technologies more expensive with coal getting the greatest hike because it is the dirtiest.

    So just because coal is cheap to buy it doesn’t necessarily mean it is cheap to burn.

    Thanks.

    The graph shows a rather large rise towards the end of 2017. It has basically doubled in price. Switch the graph to the 3yr view to see how dramatic it is.

    Who decides these daily price changes? Is it EU controlled or something the open market controls?


    What I'm still trying to grasp though is, lets say the current spot price is €23.... what exactly does that represent?.... is it that for every ton of CO2 you emit you have to pay €23.. kind of like a fine of sorts and hence encourages generators to use less carbon emitting fuels?

    Is that how it works?


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    #262
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Both.

    The price basically goes up or down depending on supply vs demand.

    The EU set up this system. They set the ground rules, if you like.

    There is an explanation here that might help. https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/ets_en

    But basically yes, your summary in the second-last paragraph is correct.


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    #263
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    if this Celtic interconnector gets built then you'll be charging your car with a blend of nuclear and wind/hydro overnight and very little hydrocarbon.
    http://www.eirgridgroup.com/the-grid/projects/celtic-interconnector/the-project/


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    #264
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    rivegauche wrote: »
    if this Celtic interconnector gets built then you'll be charging your car with a blend of nuclear and wind/hydro overnight and very little hydrocarbon.
    http://www.eirgridgroup.com/the-grid/projects/celtic-interconnector/the-project/

    I reckon it’ll be built. The problem with DC is that it counts as SNSP and offers no frequency support. It might be worth while running an AC taking the losses but using it for frequency and voltage.


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    #265
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53


    Coal is actually back to 0% for a while now. There were a few coal days a few weeks ago giving the overall 1% for the month but it seems moneypoint is as good as offline again for the last week or so.


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    #266
    conor_mc
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭conor_mc


    Just wanted to say a proper thanks for publishing this info KCross, always check in for your updates.


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    #267
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/all-ireland-electricity-market-sparks-negative-pricing-1.3874449


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    #268
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    For Real or For Walter Mitty ?

    https://www.eenewspower.com/news/data-centre-wind-turbine-wins-award/page/0/1

    Would this mean that the internet would be slow if it was a calm day :D



    ( Mods, I really dont know what forum this should be on so please move to wherever you think best )


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    #269
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    An interesting site that lets you compare different countries in realtime.

    At the moment Holland, Poland, Bosnia & Herzegovenia Estonia and Serbia have higher CO2 intensity per kWh produced than Ireland (441 g/kWh). On the other hand Norway, Sweden and France all are at below 50 g/kWh mark. Tbh I'm quite surpised as I though we are doing better than this.

    Looks like there is plenty of work ahead to get the grid cleaned. Denmark looks like a great target as their production currently emits 132 g/kWh and they don't have any hydro or nuclear or both unlike the top three.


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    #270
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    samih wrote: »
    An interesting site that lets you compare different countries in realtime.

    At the moment Holland, Poland, Bosnia & Herzegovenia Estonia and Serbia have higher CO2 intensity per kWh produced than Ireland (441 g/kWh). On the other hand Norway, Sweden and France all are at below 50 g/kWh mark. Tbh I'm quite surpised as I though we are doing better than this.

    Looks like there is plenty of work ahead to get the grid cleaned. Denmark looks like a great target as their production currently emits 132 g/kWh and they don't have any hydro or nuclear or both unlike the top three.

    Really pointless as there’s time zone differences , different weather and Denmark cheats as they import electricity so let the other countries take the hit


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  • Options
    #271
    Round Cable
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭Round Cable


    Looks like our electricity supply is getting greener in the last while. We've had at least 25 days straight without burning coal to generate electricity on the island of Ireland. According to Eirgrid, Moneypoint was available throughout this period but it just wasn't cost competitive.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-goes-25-days-without-using-coal-to-generate-electricity-1.3888166

    Also Ireland had the third biggest drop in CO2 emissions in the EU from the electricity generating sector in 2018. It was down 6.8% largely due to the forced outages at Moneypoint.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-co2-emissions-plunge-after-coalfired-power-plant-shutdown-38092953.html


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