NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Gonzo · 24-11-2014 6:16pm

I am in an amber area close to Dunshaughlin, I notice however that there seems to be 2 shades of amber, certain areas are highlighted in a slightly darker shade of amber with a thin brown outline showing these slightly darker area borders. Does anyone know if that indicates 2 different types of fibre which looks like it's dividing up rural areas with multiple housing vs rural areas with one off housing?

e.g. if you zoom in on dunshaughlin, I live in Lagore Big just to the right (east) of the town. my area is indicated by the darker shade of amber while beyond that where there are mainly just fields have a lighter shade.

nilhg · 24-11-2014 6:19pm

Gonzo wrote: »

I am in an amber area close to Dunshaughlin, I notice however that there seems to be 2 shades of amber, certain areas are highlighted in a slightly darker shade of amber with a thin brown outline showing these slightly darker area borders. Does anyone know if that indicates 2 different types of fibre which looks like it's dividing up rural areas with multiple housing vs rural areas with one off housing?

e.g. if you zoom in on dunshaughlin, I live in Lagore Big just to the right (east) of the town. my area is indicated by the darker shade of amber while beyond that where there are mainly just fields have a lighter shade.

Contour lines coming through from the underlying map?

Gonzo · 24-11-2014 6:26pm

nilhg wrote: »

Contour lines coming through from the underlying map?

im not sure where they are coming from, but I don't think the contour lines indicate land height or anything like that. They seems to follow rural areas that have more housing compared to areas with 1 off housing and fields. There has to be a reason why these areas are shaded slightly darker.

nilhg · 24-11-2014 6:31pm

Gonzo wrote: »

im not sure where they are coming from, but I don't think the contour lines indicate land height or anything like that. They seems to follow rural areas that have more housing compared to areas with 1 off housing and fields. There has to be a reason why these areas are shaded slightly darker.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,696639,752144,4,10

irishfeen · 24-11-2014 7:30pm

High Speed Broadband enabled by the State
Townland: Bally*****
County: Cork

100% premises within the NBP Area

0% premises covered by Operators by 2016

I wonder will we all be around to see this happen... to many false dawns for me to believe anything, we are waiting about 12 years to move away from Dial Up with no luck.

PixelTrawler · 24-11-2014 7:32pm

bk wrote: »

From what I can tell, the map only includes people connected to VDSL out to 500 meters, plus ESB FTTH and UPC coax.

My sister who is on a 12mb/s ADSL2+ connection is in an amber area!

From what I tell this map honestly represents in Blue, people who can or will be able to get a minimum of 30mb/s quality broadband by 2016.

Amber is anyone who gets less then 30mb/s, even if they are on VDSL and getting say a nice stable 15mb/s connection at the moment.

This is very good news as it means more people will be able to avail of the NBP scheme.

Friends of mine in rural Galway have 10 or 12 meg Adsl and i just checked and they too are in an amber area.

Praetorian · 24-11-2014 8:48pm

The 30m/bit figure sounds highly suspicious to me and highly indicative of 4g (for at least some of this rollout). Also, by 2020 30m/bit minimum wouldn't be considered "fast".

Upc's network is mostly complete, Eircom's is making great progress and Esb / Voda's will be good in the urban areas. These companies cover 68%. The relatively easy 68%. Surely it would cost billions to do the remaining 32%. What are they going to get for €355m - €512m? This is somewhere between €507 and €731 per home / business. That's before they spend a sizeable chunk of it on setup costs, bonus schemes and another sizeable chunk to "experts" for "consultancy". Esb / voda are planning to spend €455m to hit 500,000 addresses, but these are in towns and cities. The numbers don't add up.

I think they should be aiming for FTTH all the way with the home users / businesses paying for at least part of the installations. If I was lucky enough to live out in a big house in the country I'd certainly be happy to get FTTH, but I wouldn't expect to get it installed for free.

Dear Government, I'm happy to consult for half the normal fee so I can point ye in the right direction.

Villain · 24-11-2014 9:02pm

Praetorian wrote: »

The 30m/bit figure sounds highly suspicious to me and highly indicative of 4g (for at least some of this rollout). Also, by 2020 30m/bit minimum wouldn't be considered "fast".

Upc's network is mostly complete, Eircom's is making great progress and Esb / Voda's will be good in the urban areas. These companies cover 68%. The relatively easy 68%. Surely it would cost billions to do the remaining 32%. What are they going to get for €355m - €512m? This is somewhere between €507 and €731 per home / business. That's before they spend a sizeable chunk of it on setup costs, bonus schemes and another sizeable chunk to "experts" for "consultancy". Esb / voda are planning to spend €455m to hit 500,000 addresses, but these are in towns and cities. The numbers don't add up.

I think they should be aiming for FTTH all the way with the home users / businesses paying for at least part of the installations. If I was lucky enough to live out in a big house in the country I'd certainly be happy to get FTTH, but I wouldn't expect to get it installed for free.

Dear Government, I'm happy to consult for half the normal fee so I can point ye in the right direction.

If you read the submissions you would see that 4G or Fixed wireless will not be how this will move forward.

dalta5billion · 24-11-2014 9:10pm

Villain wrote: »

If you read the submissions you would see that 4G or Fixed wireless will not be how this will move forward.

Surely the submissions don't prevent DCENR from going ahead anyways if they believe it to be the "best" solution?

That said, I would hope that they respect the fact that wireless solutions aren't long term solutions for NGA for rural areas.

bk · 24-11-2014 9:51pm

Praetorian wrote: »

The 30m/bit figure sounds highly suspicious to me and highly indicative of 4g (for at least some of this rollout). Also, by 2020 30m/bit minimum wouldn't be considered "fast".

The 30mb/s by 2020 figure is actually based on an EU wide goal and directive.

Though you are correct, it depends on what the definition of 30mb/s.

If it is 30mb/s consistent connection even at peak time, then 4G is a no go, otherwise you are correct and 4G could sneak in there.

But from what I've read so far from the questions given by the Department of Comms and by the submissions from the industry, it is clear that at least they are currently setting the goal to be 30mb/s even at peak times and working hard to exclude 4G from the running.

Even Three's submission was pretty half hearted. I think they and everyone else knows that they burned their bridges with the last broadband plan and it is going to be a fixed wired solution this time around.

Of course, that could change and the government could back track, but that is where we need to campaign to make sure it is a quality solution.

Praetorian wrote: »

Surely it would cost billions to do the remaining 32%. What are they going to get for €355m - €512m? This is somewhere between €507 and €731 per home / business. That's before they spend a sizeable chunk of it on setup costs, bonus schemes and another sizeable chunk to "experts" for "consultancy". Esb / voda are planning to spend €455m to hit 500,000 addresses, but these are in towns and cities. The numbers don't add up.

Well lets say that the ESB agree to match the government investment, with another €550 million for the remaining 600,000 premises, that would now be 916 + 731 which would give you €1,647 per home.

That would go a long way to covering many rural homes, specially where they can already use the ESB's high quality electricity distribution network and right of way (poles, ducts, sub-stations, etc.).

In fact thinking about it the ESB might even be willing to invest more per premises in these rural areas, then their initial urban rollout, as they will have pretty much a monopoly in these rural areas, versus competing with Eircom VDSL in their urban, areas.

I could see them maybe even be willing to double it up to €1,800 per home, with a government subsidy of 731 would give you €2,500 per home.

Perhaps they will cap it at €2,500 and say any house that is more then that has to pay the rest of the install cost themselves. Perhaps they could even arrange for a loan and have it paid off over a few years as part of the bill.

Suddenly it all looks doable with these sort of numbers.

Praetorian wrote: »

I think they should be aiming for FTTH all the way with the home users / businesses paying for at least part of the installations. If I was lucky enough to live out in a big house in the country I'd certainly be happy to get FTTH, but I wouldn't expect to get it installed for free.

Exactly, people in rural Ireland often lower property costs, so a few thousand for a high quality broadband connection shouldn't be an issue.

The ESB already charge significantly higher for a rural electrical install then a urban one and then also charge a higher rural rate on the monthly bill to fairly reflect the higher cost of rural connections.

I could easily see the same happening with this project.

dalta5billion wrote: »

Surely the submissions don't prevent DCENR from going ahead anyways if they believe it to be the "best" solution?

No it doesn't, but it would be politically and EU level very embarrassing to do so.

If you have every single heavy hitter in the industry saying wireless isn't good enough and only FTTH will do, then it would be very problematic if they decided to go wireless, specially if it was challenged at an EU level and specially as they will likely be looking for the EU to help fund this.

MajesticDonkey · 24-11-2014 10:00pm

bk wrote: »

Exactly, people in rural Ireland often lower property costs, so a few thousand for a high quality broadband connection shouldn't be an issue.

Of course it would, to be fair. It mightn't be an issue to people building new houses, because, as you said before, it'd be just like getting your electricity connected. But do you really think the majority of existing households around the country, many of which can barely afford to get by every month, would WANT to spend a few thousand on getting a fibre connection?

This comes back again to the fact that only a very small percentage of households actually NEED a fibre connection - the word "need" implying that they would be willing to spend thousands on getting it.

I personally would absolutely love a fibre connection, and I'd probably save up €4-500 to get it. But if the NBP comes down to households being given the option of getting fibre, but it costing them thousands to do so, I don't think this will go anywhere at all, because most of them simply will not or could not pay for it.

bk · 24-11-2014 10:18pm

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Of course it would, to be fair. It mightn't be an issue to people building new houses, because, as you said before, it'd be just like getting your electricity connected. But do you really think the majority of existing households around the country, many of which can barely afford to get by every month, would WANT to spend a few thousand on getting a fibre connection?

At 1,500 to 2,500 per home from Government +ESB/Eircom many if not most rural homes at least those with say 4km of a village can probably be done.

That just leaves the minority of more extreme examples, say 10km from a village.

Now lets look at the extreme example, lets say it cost €7500 - €2500 from the government + ESB/Eircom, that leaves €5,000 for the owner to pay.

But now lets say the government, agrees to give you a low interest loan over 20 years that you pay on your bill. Including interest that is just an extra €25 per month.

So while someone in Dublin pays €40 per month, a truly rural person ends up paying €65 per month for a fantastic 1Gb/s FTTH connection!

Are you really saying €25 per month extra would be too much to ask!

This wouldn't be much different to the higher standing charge paid by rural dwellers for electricity.

MajesticDonkey · 24-11-2014 10:25pm

bk wrote: »

So while someone in Dublin pays €40 per month, a truly rural person ends up paying €65 per month for a fantastic 1Gb/s FTTH connection!

Are you really saying €25 per month extra would be too much to ask!

No, I'm absolutely not saying that. A loan-scheme of some kind would be great! I personally wouldn't have a problem paying €65/month.

I feel that many people would have a problem with this - because again, they simply don't want or need a 1Gb connection, so they just won't see the need to pay for it.

bk · 24-11-2014 10:32pm

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I feel that many people would have a problem with this - because again, they simply don't want or need a 1Gb connection, so they just won't see the need to pay for it.

As their ADSL connections won't be updated at all and as the speed demands of the internet increase, people will increasing find their 1 to 4mb/s ADSL connections inadequate and pretty much forced to upgrade.

Also Eircom has been asking Comreg to allow it to charge higher rates for even basic ADSL in rural areas. Even crappy ADSL could well end up costing €60 per month if Comreg agree and thus little reason not to get FTTH.

Gonzo · 25-11-2014 12:47am

I really hope they don't end up leaving us with wireless/4G, thats not broadband, imagine downloading big game updates/patchs such as World Of Warcraft/PS4/Xbox 1 games on a 4g connection with their limited download allowance.

Its Only Ray Parlour · 25-11-2014 12:53am

Gonzo wrote: »

imagine downloading big game updates/patchs such as World Of Warcraft

Can't imagine myself doing that anytime soon.

grbear · 25-11-2014 1:40am

The map they provided gives me some hope that this won't turn out to be another false dawn for those of us with subpar internet connections. Compared to Eircoms own efibre map it really is striking just how small an area is covered by that service.

BeerWolf · 25-11-2014 12:30pm

Seeing a lot of yellow on the map, nonetheless my house is within it --- even though I can get 45mbps download speeds with 4G in my area.

Would the NBP be for fixed line broadband ?

I'd be happy to get any form of "unlimited" broadband compared to my current restrictive 20/60GB packages I got with Vodafone and THREE.

bk · 25-11-2014 2:16pm

BeerWolf wrote: »

Seeing a lot of yellow on the map, nonetheless my house is within it --- even though I can get 45mbps download speeds with 4G in my area.

The problem with 3/4G is that it is shared.

So it might look like you are getting 45mbs at the moment, but as more of your neighbours upgrade their devices to 4G, you will see that speed drop greatly, in particular at peak times.

This is already been seen here in Dublin, with 4G speeds on some operators more then halving from what people originally saw.

So no, 3/4G aren't really suitable for real broadband, the NBP will hopefully be only wired broadband, preferably FTTH.

KOR101 · 25-11-2014 7:21pm

Praetorian wrote: »

The 30m/bit figure sounds highly suspicious to me and highly indicative of 4g (for at least some of this rollout). Also, by 2020 30m/bit minimum wouldn't be considered "fast".

Yes, if the Government had taken on board the 'surprise' endorsement of FTTH in the submissions, then they wouldn't be talking about minimum speeds of 30m/bit. I actually think the Government is asleep at the wheels. Why else would they have nothing else ready to replace the old scheme when it ran out.

Let's say Eircom are forced to respond strongly to ESB's FTTH, then by 2018 you could have 800k premises/households with FTTH and 800k with FTTC. If I'm used to 1 gibit speeds in Dublin, the 30mbit speeds in some rural locations is going to feel very slow.

I'm thinking of products like Google Drive and the way the prices of it have fallen. Synching a 2TB drive for $20/month makes a lot of sense, but you need the speed. I actually have about 30-40TB including all my collections.

murphaph · 26-11-2014 8:45pm

Does this plan also cover premises INSIDE the blue areas that cannot get a 30Mb connection? There must be thousands of premises in this situation because of line faults or weird extra long cable runs back to the exchange. Will operators be compelled to fix their line faults to ensure they get at least 30Mb? Interesting times ahead!

bk · 27-11-2014 2:16pm

murphaph wrote: »

Does this plan also cover premises INSIDE the blue areas that cannot get a 30Mb connection? There must be thousands of premises in this situation because of line faults or weird extra long cable runs back to the exchange. Will operators be compelled to fix their line faults to ensure they get at least 30Mb? Interesting times ahead!

No, this plan doesn't cover any homes inside the blue areas.

The FAQ on the site says about this:

I’m living an area marked Blue but there is no connectivity available on my street/road?

If you are in a BLUE area and you don’t have a high speed broadband service, you should first check commercial operator websites to see whether your area has been upgraded yet.

There are three possible reasons why your area is market BLUE but you don’t have service:

(1) Your area has not been upgraded yet. All the BLUE areas are expected to be upgraded by the end of 2016. You can check operator maps and websites for an update on when your area is expected to be upgraded.
(2) Your area has been upgraded but there is a problem with your individual service. If this is the case you should contact your service provider. If this fails to resolve the matter you can contact ComReg (the independent regulator for the telecommunications industry) at http://www.askcomreg.ie/
(3) Your area has been upgraded but there are clusters of buildings in this area that have not been fully upgraded for technical reasons. Telecommunications operators have advised the Department that all of these areas will be addressed by the end of 2016. If you think your home or business falls into this category you can contact us using the on-line form. By providing us with specific details of your address we can follow up with the appropriate commercial providers.

So my reading of this is that no, they won't be required to deliver 30mb/s to you, but I'd imagine they will be under pretty strong pressure to do so and most people will be sorted out.

AlanS181824 · 27-11-2014 8:58pm

I looked up where my Nanny lives and her address is on it, 30Mb out there? I doubt it very much!

Recently a phone mast fell down in bad weather so we can't even get Edge out there anymore!

No internet whatsoever!

fitzgooble · 27-11-2014 11:57pm

My two cents is you'll have all the major towns and cities covered by Eircom, ESB/Voda and UPC. Eircom are pulling fibre to the cab so all copper lines to customers can be guaranteed 30Mbps in say up to 3-5KM or something, it falls of quite quickly after that. UPC can service their customers which are mostly in urban areas over co-axial cabling capable of savage speeds as is, but is not rural, nor I doubt they'll ever be. ESB have a cable running to every premises in the country so it'll be interesting to see what Vodafone will do with that infrastructure, the cost would be Ginormous to have FTTH in every premises so we'll wait and see what they roll out.
All the smaller towns are currently been put out to tender to the major fibre operators who are in essence running a fibre up the main street and 'T'ing' off to business premises in the town itself, tough luck to anyone on the outskirts of the town. That's where fixed wireless comes into play and with tx rates on 5Ghz unlicensed radios capable of over 20Mbps throughput, this could be a real solution in the interim if it's just one hop back to the fibre. 5Ghz is open to interference so here's hoping ComReg release something around the 3Ghz range.
Either/Or the cabling infrastructure in this country desperately needs to be overhauled but it would take massive investment to bring it to every house, there are solutions but not if it's all left up to one company like last time.

Nonoperational · 28-11-2014 8:48am

The blue areas look very fairly marked. I'd be amazed if this was complete in 2 years time though.

Villain · 28-11-2014 10:26am

Nonoperational wrote: »

The blue areas look very fairly marked. I'd be amazed if this was complete in 2 years time though.

2020 is the target date, it is only expected to start roll-out in 2016 but I would imagine the 2020 target will be missed too.

murphaph · 28-11-2014 1:21pm

2016 is the date for completion of the blue areas (ie, outside the scope of the NBP). The NBP has the 2020 date, but obviously that will be incredible if they make it, but even half of those 700k premises receiving minimum 30Mb would be impressive and the reality is if FTTH is preferred that the 30Mb figure will be blown out of the water.

Even Eircom accept that copper is no use for our dispersed ribbon and one off development patterns and while fixed wireless has a place in all this, it will not be the default solution, if you believe the hyperbole in the video about "future proofed" broadband.

The NBP by the way wouldn't be possible without the densification of the fibre network that has come about and is coming about because of the commercial investment in our towns, and cities (and villages in fact). Without this scaffolding of fibre, the government couldn't possibly afford to do anything for those in one off or ribbon developments.

shortys94 · 28-11-2014 1:42pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

I looked up where my Nanny lives and her address is on it, 30Mb out there? I doubt it very much!

Recently a phone mast fell down in bad weather so we can't even get Edge out there anymore!

No internet whatsoever!

Yea I know I have relations in the west who actually don't even have phone lines. They ripped apart last year and are just left on the side of the road. Nothing on the masts, could never envisage any kind of connection of the promised kind in these kinds of areas.

Jakey Rolling · 04-12-2014 8:31am

We currently have a reasonably stable 2Mb service from a wireless ISP.

My worry is that they will lose customers gradually as they are hooked up to fibre, to the point where their operation is financially unviable. They will have to shut up shop, leaving their remaining customers without any BB until the NBS fibre reaches them - we could end up without any service for months or years!

Do you think the scheme should provide some kind of subvention to current service providers on the margins to avoid this situation occurring?

thierry14 · 04-12-2014 2:24pm

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

Do you think the scheme should provide some kind of subvention to current service providers on the margins to avoid this situation occurring?

That's what has held the country back for so long.

Should be no subsidies for anything, survival of the fittest.

Your wireless provider should be looking to upgrade his service and compete, not looking for handouts.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Comments