NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

ED E · 24-11-2014 2:38pm #1

They've published!

The government has published a new map outlining in detail 700,000 rural homes and businesses which will be connected to state-subsidised broadband of at least 30 megabits per second (Mbs) from 2016.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/revealed-700000-homes-and-businesses-to-get-subsidised-fast-broadband-in-new-plan-30769126.html

Edit: Video

MajesticDonkey · 24-11-2014 2:46pm

Is there any list or detailed map to view?

EDIT: here: http://www.broadband.gov.ie/

Jakey Rolling · 24-11-2014 2:47pm

Searchable map at http://www.broadband.gov.ie/

As expected, my house is not on it as it's only been there for 3 years :-(

This is a massive step in the right direction, an acceptance that government intervention is necessary to bring a decent level of service to all. Yes it could cost taxpayers €1billion, but the benefits to the economy should be orders of magnitude relative to this cost.

Here's hoping that the European Commission see sense on this one wrt state aid regulations.

Praetorian · 24-11-2014 2:49pm

ED E wrote: »

They've published!

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/revealed-700000-homes-and-businesses-to-get-subsidised-fast-broadband-in-new-plan-30769126.html

I am very sceptical due to past experience with regard to government announcements. Fibre everywhere is what we should be aiming at.

Wireless AND 4G is what will end up with, with far less than 100% coverage.

MajesticDonkey · 24-11-2014 2:49pm

Let's hope this plan actually goes somewhere and isn't a complete shambles and/or disappears into thin air like previous plans.

I don't expect to see anything from this (for NBP areas) before 2018 at the earliest.

Bummer1234 · 24-11-2014 2:50pm

When this comes around to "2016", How is it been implemented...is it fibre in all the locations in blue?

Edit: Seen on the indo it mentions "new state-funded fibre broadband network".

Villain · 24-11-2014 3:20pm

The devil will be in the detail but the plan is a great target

bk · 24-11-2014 3:55pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Wireless AND 4G is what will end up with, with far less than 100% coverage.

I'm not so sure this time around. The government got burned by Three with 3G on the last National Broadband Plan. In their submissions to the government, all the heavy hitters (Eircom, ESB, Vodafone, etc.) stressed that FTTH was the only solution for rural broadband. Eircoms submission was particularly impressive. I see little wiggle room for the government to push 4G instead.

MBSnr · 24-11-2014 4:09pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure this time around. The government got burned by Three with 3G on the last National Broadband Plan. In their submissions to the government, all the heavy hitters (Eircom, ESB, Vodafone, etc.) stressed that FTTH was the only solution for rural broadband. Eircoms submission was particularly impressive. I see little wiggle room for the government to push 4G instead.

I wonder why they haven't marked all the villages on the map that they mentioned here.
Seems they just coloured the entire country in amber.... which surely means wireless to a large percentage outside of the those villages....

shortys94 · 24-11-2014 4:10pm

Do you think solutions such as FTW could be incorporated, similar to Westnet in the western regions. I know they're speeds are limited to under 4 Mbps but I have family who use their services and have a very low latency due to the contention ratio I suppose in those rural areas.

Does anyone have any ideas on what kind of solutions they could possibly provide for a minimum of 30 Mbps with consistent connection, not prone to drops of 3G etc...

MajesticDonkey · 24-11-2014 4:10pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure this time around. The government got burned by Three with 3G on the last National Broadband Plan. In their submissions to the government, all the heavy hitters (Eircom, ESB, Vodafone, etc.) stressed that FTTH was the only solution for rural broadband. Eircoms submission was particularly impressive. I see little wiggle room for the government to push 4G instead.

Hey, maybe we'll become another South Korea and start developing 6G!

(5G already in development...around 800Mb/s theoretical download in lab tests)

Villain · 24-11-2014 4:11pm

MBSnr wrote: »

I wonder why they haven't marked all the villages on the map that they mentioned here.
Seems they just coloured the entire country in amber.... which surely means wireless to a large percentage outside of the those villages....

There are some odd blue circles that I'm not sure of, i.e. what is going to deliver 30mbps by 2016 e.g. east of Shillelagh in Wicklow.

pajor · 24-11-2014 4:29pm

Praetorian wrote: »

I am very sceptical due to past experience with regard to government announcements. Fibre everywhere is what we should be aiming at.

Wireless AND 4G is what will end up with, with far less than 100% coverage.

I'd be very skeptical (and a bit cynical too) about it all. I'll believe it when I see it.

I saw the blue and amber map just there. My jaw dropped a little realising how much of this country needs government intervention to supply fixed broadband. Must be so crippling for rural business.

bk · 24-11-2014 4:34pm

shortys94 wrote: »

Do you think solutions such as FTW could be incorporated, similar to Westnet in the western regions. I know they're speeds are limited to under 4 Mbps but I have family who use their services and have a very low latency due to the contention ratio I suppose in those rural areas.

Does anyone have any ideas on what kind of solutions they could possibly provide for a minimum of 30 Mbps with consistent connection, not prone to drops of 3G etc...

No, FTW shouldn't be included with perhaps the exception of the most extreme of extreme case (one off house on the top of a mountain, island off the coast, etc.)

In their submissions to the NBP, Eircom, ESB and Vodafone made it clear that FTTH was the only technology that could bring reliable high speed broadband to rural Ireland.

Eircoms submission was particularly impressive and detailed. They said if the requirement was a steady, stable, minimum 30mb/s connection that:

- 4G would actually cost more then FTTH to reach that level of performance!
- They could use VDSL mini-dslams, FTTdp, etc. to achieve those speeds, but again it would lead to much higher maintenance cost then just doing FTTH.

Ronan|Raven · 24-11-2014 4:35pm

I feel like we have been here before..

bk · 24-11-2014 4:36pm

pajor wrote: »

I saw the blue and amber map just there. My jaw dropped a little realising how much of this country needs government intervention to supply fixed broadband. Must be so crippling for rural business.

It is good for people to finally realise how low density and rural Ireland actually is outside of Dublin, Cork, etc. and how difficult and expensive a problem it is.

ED E · 24-11-2014 4:38pm

pajor wrote: »

I'd be very skeptical (and a bit cynical too) about it all. I'll believe it when I see it.

I saw the blue and amber map just there. My jaw dropped a little realising how much of this country needs government intervention to supply fixed broadband. Must be so crippling for rural business.

Its important to note a lot of that are has ADSL2+ at the moment, more often than not on NGN(uncongested backhaul). Its just the outliers are down at 1-5mb that's the crux of the issue.

bk · 24-11-2014 4:43pm

From the quick look at the map I'm quietly impressed so far.

The Blue areas mostly are just the areas that Eircom is covering with VDSL cabs. I assume UPC and ESB FTTH are just a subset of these areas.

What the cynic in me thought was going to happen, is that any area with an Eircom VDSL cab would be blue out to 2km from the cab, which would thus cover people who could get VDSL, but might only be getting as little as 7mb/s from VDSL due to the distance.

But no, they only seem to be indicating circles of 500 meters from each VDSL cab! People within areas of 500 meters should easily get minimum 30mb/s and likely more like 50mb/s. This means more people will be eligible for the NBP and is great news.

Also from what I can see, it would seem that FWA and 3G and 4G coverage are excluded from the map and rightfully so.

So this map plus the strong submissions from Eircom, ESB, etc. lead me to believe that things might (mind you, just might) be different this time around.

bk · 24-11-2014 4:48pm

ED E wrote: »

Its important to note a lot of that are has ADSL2+ at the moment, more often than not on NGN(uncongested backhaul). Its just the outliers are down at 1-5mb that's the crux of the issue.

From what I can tell, the map only includes people connected to VDSL out to 500 meters, plus ESB FTTH and UPC coax.

My sister who is on a 12mb/s ADSL2+ connection is in an amber area!

From what I tell this map honestly represents in Blue, people who can or will be able to get a minimum of 30mb/s quality broadband by 2016.

Amber is anyone who gets less then 30mb/s, even if they are on VDSL and getting say a nice stable 15mb/s connection at the moment.

This is very good news as it means more people will be able to avail of the NBP scheme.

shortys94 · 24-11-2014 4:48pm

bk wrote: »

It is good for people to finally realise how low density and rural Ireland actually is outside of Dublin, Cork, etc. and how difficult and expensive a problem it is.

Yes but I think people who don't realise this may also not realise the long term financial benefits of providing such infrastructure. I think the availability of such a resource plays a part in how people choose their location for residence. A consistent, high quality connection may see more businesses and residences being set up in more rural districts.

bk · 24-11-2014 4:54pm

shortys94 wrote: »

Yes but I think people who don't realise this may also not realise the long term financial benefits of providing such infrastructure. I think the availability of such a resource plays a part in how people choose their location for residence. A consistent, high quality connection may see more businesses and residences being set up in more rural districts.

At the very best it will reduce the flow to urban areas, but it certainly won't reverse it.

Just look at rural Norway and Sweden, despite them having FTTH to almost every rural home for many years now, it hasn't stop the mass migration of people in rural areas to towns and cities.

If anything I think the internet has actually sped up this migration, the young people see all the cool events and socialising that they are missing out on in the cities and want to move there.

They see their facebook feeds full of posts about cool parties, night outs, sporting events, etc. in the city and they want to experience the same and leave their rural home for the big city life as quickly as possible.

pajor · 24-11-2014 4:55pm

ED E wrote: »

Its important to note a lot of that are has ADSL2+ at the moment, more often than not on NGN(uncongested backhaul). Its just the outliers are down at 1-5mb that's the crux of the issue.

No doubt you're right.

But from a personal view, where I am in Co Waterford a lot of the time there's nothing (apart from wireless). Have enquired with eircom, vodafone and UPC recently and nada. In 2014, €35 p.m for 2mb just isn't on.

ED E · 24-11-2014 4:56pm

bk wrote: »

From what I can tell, the map only includes people connected to VDSL out to 500 meters, plus ESB FTTH and UPC coax.

My sister who is on a 12mb/s ADSL2+ connection is in an amber area!

From what I tell this map honestly represents in Blue, people who can or will be able to get a minimum of 30mb/s quality broadband by 2016.

Amber is anyone who gets less then 30mb/s, even if they are on VDSL and getting say a nice stable 15mb/s connection at the moment.

This is very good news as it means more people will be able to avail of the NBP scheme.

I totally follow you there, was just posting that as Pajor's post could be construed to indicate fixed line isnt available at all in the amber zones.

bk · 24-11-2014 5:16pm

ED E wrote: »

I totally follow you there, was just posting that as Pajor's post could be construed to indicate fixed line isnt available at all in the amber zones.

Yup, the map and the FAQ aren't very clear, but from looking at a number of areas that I know myself and comparing it to the IrelandOffLine map, my understanding (and I'm totally open to be corrected here) is that the map indicates:

- Blue areas: Areas that have or will have by 2016 a minimum of 30mb/s delivered by VDSL2, UPC cable or ESB FTTH.

- Amber areas: Anything below the above standard, but may currently include pretty decent ADSL2+, FWA and even VDSL connections that deliver anything up to 30mb/s

I have to say, so far given what I've seen here, I'm very happy with this map and hope that it is a good sign as to what the NBP will deliver. Obviously the devil will be in the detail of the plan and we need to campaign for a high quality solution, but so far the signs are looking good.

PeadarB · 24-11-2014 5:33pm

The devil will be in the detail. 3 took the money and ran last time out. "Commercially sensitive" info will be kept secret until the final plan is set out. As ESB Networks, a semi-state utility, practically covers most premises in the country as it is with their power infrastructure, would it not be prudent to keep this massive undertaking under their wing.

Machinehead · 24-11-2014 5:49pm

"Under EU competition rules, the State can only fund services or infrastructure where there is clear evidence that the commercial sector has not and will not invest." (dcenr.gov.ie)
Will this then be the CIE of broadband, they must go where the private operators have no desire to go for whatever reasons. What will these services/ infrastructure be? ESB/Vodafone/ Wireless or 4G, or some combination of them all? I partly guessed that the private operators weren't going to venture much beyond their existing comfort zones to extend their coverage be it due to economic or infrastructural reasons. Does the 2016 mean the whole thing doesn't even get going for 12 months, I my qualify for OAP discounts if it goes on much longer than a few years after that.

Machinehead · 24-11-2014 5:54pm

[QUOTE=(5G already in development...around 800Mb/s theoretical download in lab tests)[/QUOTE]
Saw on BBC Click that Japan expect to have 5G broadband & 8K TV up & running for the 2020 olympics.

bk · 24-11-2014 5:55pm

PeadarB wrote: »

As ESB Networks, a semi-state utility, practically covers most premises in the country as it is with their power infrastructure, would it not be prudent to keep this massive undertaking under their wing.

Well that would probably be against EU state funding rules, it will need to be opened up to tender.

However I expect the ESB will be very heavily involved, specially if their current FTTH rollout goes well. They will gain a great deal of experience from that.

I expect it will mostly be split between ESB/Vodafone and Eircom.

bk · 24-11-2014 5:58pm

Machinehead wrote: »

Saw on BBC Click that Japan expect to have 5G broadband & 8K TV up & running for the 2020 olympics.

You can call it X1000G if you like, it won't make a difference. wireless is simply unsuited to delivering large amounts of high quality bandwidth in a stable and reliable manner.

Only wired broadband can do that, specifically Fibre.

It is simple physics, their simply isn't enough bandwidth available at the required frequencies to make wireless in any way a replacement for good quality wired connection.

pajor · 24-11-2014 6:02pm

ED E wrote: »

I totally follow you there, was just posting that as Pajor's post could be construed to indicate fixed line isnt available at all in the amber zones.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that at all.

nilhg · 24-11-2014 6:14pm

bk wrote: »

Yup, the map and the FAQ aren't very clear, but from looking at a number of areas that I know myself and comparing it to the IrelandOffLine map, my understanding (and I'm totally open to be corrected here) is that the map indicates:

- Blue areas: Areas that have or will have by 2016 a minimum of 30mb/s delivered by VDSL2, UPC cable or ESB FTTH.

- Amber areas: Anything below the above standard, but may currently include pretty decent ADSL2+, FWA and even VDSL connections that deliver anything up to 30mb/s

I have to say, so far given what I've seen here, I'm very happy with this map and hope that it is a good sign as to what the NBP will deliver. Obviously the devil will be in the detail of the plan and we need to campaign for a high quality solution, but so far the signs are looking good.

I'm about 200m outside a blue area and am currently synced at 39884/8589, actually just looking now there are only 8 inhabited houses inside the blue area for our Cab.

Like some others here I'm a bit more optimistic about this plan on a very quick first inspection, there does seem to be more thought gone into it and less ovbious bloat around it.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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