Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

Thelonious Monk · 07-01-2021 11:32pm

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

Why did you buy/rent a house with no heating in this day and age?

beachhead · 07-01-2021 11:36pm

Dubmany wrote: »

What made a big difference in reducing smoke levels in Dublin and other cities was the introduction of the smoky coal ban (you can burn smokeless coal instead). That ban was extended to towns over 10,000 people this September. The problem is that it hasn't fed through or isn't being enforced.

There is no enforcement of the smoky coal ban or of any other products producing pollution.The quango tasked with enforcing the ban(initailly based in Kilkenny City)was abolished/dissolved at least 8 years ago.The local councils are not interested in enforcement and never have been since the quango's disappearance.Perhaps the Greens could set it up again staffed by their buds.

John_Rambo · 07-01-2021 11:57pm

It's down to personal responsibility. Like Covid-19.

Morons will continue to act irresponsibly and spread the disease.

Morons will continue to act irresponsibly and burn dirty fuel.

Unfortunately the morons & their kids will catch the disease.

Unfortunately in both cases innocent people & kids will catch Covid and suffer from dirty fuel.

Silly morons.

senordingdong · 08-01-2021 12:55am

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

Don't let your children freeze...just slowly poison them.
You live rural and this thread is about pollution in urban areas. Faux outrage indeed.

2lazytogetup · 08-01-2021 5:51pm

people that burn wood in stoves, do they get hit with pollution, or does it all go up the chimney and the stove contains the fumes?

Irish people are inherently selfish, so the only way to stop them burning wood is to say they are doing themselves and family harm.

I cant see current govnerment doing anything. FF are at the wheel and they rely on the grey vote.

air · 08-01-2021 5:56pm

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

BattleCorp · 08-01-2021 6:05pm

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

If that's the case, then there needs to be grants for people who don't have the financial means to upgrade their heating systems and insulation.

Otherwise those who don't have much money will suffer.

TheChizler · 08-01-2021 6:07pm

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

Burning your dinner has harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home. Everything is a poison in the wrong quantities. It's all relative. That recent report didn't give the figures for open fire pollutants but if one was 100 times less than the other it wouldn't worry me, but if they were similar that would be cause for concern.

08-01-2021 6:16pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Burning your dinner has harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home. Everything is a poison in the wrong quantities. It's all relative. That recent report didn't give the figures for open fire pollutants but if one was 100 times less than the other it wouldn't worry me, but if they were similar that would be cause for concern.

Other way around?

TheChizler · 08-01-2021 6:18pm

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Other way around?

You could technically interpret what I said both ways but only 1 makes sense in the context? If there's a difference I'd expect an open fire to be worse than a stove.

magicbastarder · 08-01-2021 6:48pm

air wrote: »

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

here endeth the charcoal barbeque...

2lazytogetup · 08-01-2021 7:11pm

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

Unfortunately??!! I can feel better knowing that when I'm out for a walk and breathe householders poisoning air, at least they are getting it worse. They deserve it. I'm talking urban houses with audis and mercs in driveway. Not rural houses with no alternative

ercork · 08-01-2021 7:28pm

There hasn't been very much research performed on indoor air quality to date. A recent study carried out in Britain did show some worrying results from wood burning in stoves:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-burners-triple-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-study-finds

magicbastarder · 08-01-2021 7:41pm

i don't see how the focus would be on stoves based on that (and it's a small sample size, 19 stoves; )

"Wood burners cause less indoor pollution than open fires. “But every time you open the door, you reduce the stove to an open fire and particulate matter floods into the home,” he said. The peaks take an hour or two to dissipate. "

if opening a stove simply to load it causes that much of a spike, surely there would be much more concern about open fires?
our stove might be opened for about 30s in total in several hours of burning. i suspect there could be issues with the draw on some of the ones they tested.

Stovepipe · 08-01-2021 7:54pm

I did a practical test; I went outside and looked around, at 3 pm today, cloudless sky, in my rural housing estate of thirty houses. My stove is currently burning wood and has little or no visible emissions and the same applies to my neighbours, left and right. The guy across the road is using an open fire and must be burning coal as there is a very visible trail of smoke. My stove is not a big unit and will only emit smoke inside the house if I provoke it, as the CO meter does not go off unless I provoke it! The fireplace that it replaced would set off the alarm, if the door was opened quickly or if a strong wind sent a draught back down the chimney.

2lazytogetup · 08-01-2021 8:51pm

Stay safe people. Right now it's so cold that half the country has a fire going. Even being briefly outside is filling your lungs, blood stream etc with crap.

TheChizler · 08-01-2021 10:01pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

I did a practical test; I went outside and looked around, at 3 pm today, cloudless sky, in my rural housing estate of thirty houses. My stove is currently burning wood and has little or no visible emissions and the same applies to my neighbours, left and right. The guy across the road is using an open fire and must be burning coal as there is a very visible trail of smoke.

I've done similar with our open one (which I only light on windy nights and will be replacing with a stove), neighbours would have thick billowing clouds all night long which has to be coal or turf, whereas we only burn kiln-dried hardwood and you'd struggle to see anything.

senordingdong · 08-01-2021 10:22pm

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Unfortunately??!! I can feel better knowing that when I'm out for a walk and breathe householders poisoning air, at least they are getting it worse. They deserve it. I'm talking urban houses with audis and mercs in driveway. Not rural houses with no alternative

This is what really gets me. The stoves aren't connected boilers etc so they exist only for aesthetic, 'I love having a real fire' etc, it's a waste of money and is making air pollution so much worse.
And all these affluent people voting Green. Christ.

09-01-2021 12:31pm

senordingdong wrote: »

This is what really gets me. The stoves aren't connected boilers etc so they exist only for aesthetic, 'I love having a real fire' etc, it's a waste of money and is making air pollution so much worse.
And all these affluent people voting Green. Christ.

My sitting room open fire only heads the sitting room. Very inefficient.
The stove in the kitchen with decent fuel will heat the kitchen, hall and if I open the double doors to the sitting room, that as well.

senordingdong · 09-01-2021 2:12pm

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

The stove in the kitchen with decent fuel will heat the kitchen, hall and if I open the double doors to the sitting room, that as well.

And then a case can be made for keeping it. Especially rurally.
But a case can't be made for a stove that poorly heats one room, in an urban area.

magicbastarder · 09-01-2021 2:16pm

you have the wrong stove if it 'poorly' heats one room. we've a small (~4kW) room heater stove, and if we keep the door closed in that room, it's unbearable when the stove is lit.

we lit the fire a few times in that room before we got the stove installed. with the open fire, we had to keep the door closed to keep the heat in; with the stove we have to leave the door open to let it out.
and that's one other reason open fires are so inefficient; an open fire basically acts as a pump to pump the air in the room up the chimney, air which you've warmed with the fire. with the door open, it basically sucked cold air into the room.

Graces7 · 09-01-2021 5:24pm

0lddog wrote: »

Bottled gas ... probably the most costly form of energy in the country - delivered off-shore ... cant imagine price/kWhr

Can you choose your own electricity plan ( bonkers.ie etc ) ? If so, then 'leccy might be on

As for pluto....ask Jacob before proceeding. That trendy 'glow in the dark' look may inhibut his nocturnal activities.

As for stoves etc, the last three weeks I'm away from them and am breathing normally with no 'unexplained' sub 90% SpO2 events...

Interesting the different ways we see things.

I chose bottled gas for cooking as it is cheaper than electricity and if we get power cuts it is still there. All electric houses are not wise.

One bottle lasts me well over 4 months, at E32, and that does all my cooking and heats water for dishes etc. Paying up front works best for me. And I prefer the immediacy of gas cooking.

I use electricity for lighting and the computer and microwave. Very low user..nd I get an allowance of course.

The solid fuel stove heats the water tank. And as I am in and out a lot and this place is small; it is never in an enclosed unventilated space. Very well aware of the dangers of CO2 poisoning.

It is my sole heater.

Each to their own way of dealing with these things. And cost is a large part of this.

Graces7 · 09-01-2021 5:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

you have the wrong stove if it 'poorly' heats one room. we've a small (~4kW) room heater stove, and if we keep the door closed in that room, it's unbearable when the stove is lit.

we lit the fire a few times in that room before we got the stove installed. with the open fire, we had to keep the door closed to keep the heat in; with the stove we have to leave the door open to let it out.
and that's one other reason open fires are so inefficient; an open fire basically acts as a pump to pump the air in the room up the chimney, air which you've warmed with the fire. with the door open, it basically sucked cold air into the room.

Excellent appraisal. Like most folk in rentals we have to take what is there and I was very happy to find a stove here. My place is small and the stove works well. The room door is never closed.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly · 09-01-2021 5:35pm

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Stay safe people.

I sincerely hope you're extracting the piss.

mickuhaha · 09-01-2021 7:38pm

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Stay safe people. Right now it's so cold that half the country has a fire going. Even being briefly outside is filling your lungs, blood stream etc with crap.

Buy an N100 mask and you will be fine.

09-01-2021 8:08pm

Very smokey in Cork tonight
Macroom must be on fire

https://airquality.ie/readings?station=EPA-67&dateFrom=09+Jan+2021&dateTo=09+Jan+2021

Thelonious Monk · 09-01-2021 10:54pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAugustenborg/status/1347956142987767815

Bray today. That's just awful.

mickuhaha · 10-01-2021 7:51am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAugustenborg/status/1347956142987767815

Bray today. That's just awful.

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

senordingdong · 10-01-2021 10:49am

mickuhaha wrote: »

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

This is part of the problem, the instruments have too large of an area to cover.
I expect the station in bray is not on the main street.

Thelonious Monk · 10-01-2021 10:59am

mickuhaha wrote: »

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

Certainly doesn't look moderate, I wouldn't want to be living in that.

Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

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