Aidan O Sheas Comments

harpsman · 16-04-2014 9:57pm #1

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/unfair-county-structure-has-no-future-oshea-30189894.html

Didnt think Aidan was the brightest,but have to say I found his views interesting. Im not sure if the game will go professional but Ive often wondered how a regional system work, with say 12 or 14 strong regional teams able to compete on a reasonably level playing field. I felt his comments about some counties pissin against the wind were very honest,and true.Obviously there are lots of cons,but if the game goes professional the current county system cant survive. Also, if Dublin finally start to make their obvious advantages count(population,money,no away games) then some sort of rethink may be necessary.
Agreed with his comments on the unrelenting negativity of RTEs panels and a bit of competition will do them no harm.

yop · 16-04-2014 11:07pm

harpsman wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/unfair-county-structure-has-no-future-oshea-30189894.html

Didnt think Aidan was the brightest,but have to say I found his views interesting. Im not sure if the game will go professional but Ive often wondered how a regional system work, with say 12 or 14 strong regional teams able to compete on a reasonably level playing field. I felt his comments about some counties pissin against the wind were very honest,and true.Obviously there are lots of cons,but if the game goes professional the current county system cant survive. Also, if Dublin finally start to make their obvious advantages count(population,money,no away games) then some sort of rethink may be necessary.
Agreed with his comments on the unrelenting negativity of RTEs panels and a bit of competition will do them no harm.

He must have got his 1st class honors degree from the internet so. :rolleyes:

ArielAtom · 17-04-2014 9:03am

harpsman wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/unfair-county-structure-has-no-future-oshea-30189894.html

Didnt think Aidan was the brightest,but have to say I found his views interesting. Im not sure if the game will go professional but Ive often wondered how a regional system work, with say 12 or 14 strong regional teams able to compete on a reasonably level playing field. I felt his comments about some counties pissin against the wind were very honest,and true.Obviously there are lots of cons,but if the game goes professional the current county system cant survive. Also, if Dublin finally start to make their obvious advantages count(population,money,no away games) then some sort of rethink may be necessary.
Agreed with his comments on the unrelenting negativity of RTEs panels and a bit of competition will do them no harm.

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

Pete_Cavan · 17-04-2014 9:07am

The popularity of intercounty GAA is built on tradition and peoples connection with their locality and where they come from. This system has many benefits but it also has inherent unfairness built in (takes no account of population spread, geographic factors, etc.) and the competition structure as huge flaws. O’Shea is right in a lot of ways, we cant just rigidly stick to the existing system and it will have to evolve. However, this does not mean scrapping everything and starting again with some sort of franchise model. In football, we could see smaller counties amalgamating to compete in the All Ireland Championship, while playing other competitions on their own. This kind of thing is happening at club level. Any changes should be development and a progression on the existing system.

Look at Welsh rugby for an example of where people have failed to embrace newly created regional teams. Many want to return to the traditional clubs even though they are too small and unsustainable at professional level. Irish rugby didn’t have that problem because the provinces had 100 years of history playing rugby before they became professional. I certainly think it would be better for GAA to build on the established system.

I think O’Shea is wrong about professionalism. I don’t think the association can make enough money to sustain professional hurling and football teams, even if the number of teams is vastly reduced from what we have now. Professionalism requires a season of continuous matchs and I don’t think enough fans will pay to see GAA matches week after week for ~30 weeks. The only professional model we would be able to support would be similar to professional soccer in this country but that is a mess. Players are usually contracted for the duration of the season, go on the dole or look for other work in the off season and hope to get another contract next season. There is no security, career prospects not good, the money isn’t great and for many it is not as attractive as a full time job, especially if you have a family to support. It is not good for the sport or the players. The reality is the expenses system will change and more money will be funnelled to players that way while retaining the guise of amateurism and players needing other work, rather than full time professional contracts.

buyer95 · 17-04-2014 9:10am

ArielAtom wrote: »

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

It's nothing of the sort. Bernard Brogan has never played a championship game outside Croker. Just saying.

harpsman · 17-04-2014 9:23am

ArielAtom wrote: »

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

I hope you re just being facetious rather than being silly enough to believe that. But sure I ll play along for one post. Denegals home ground is Mc Cumhaill Park, Ballybofey. If Donegal play Dublin in Letterkenny is that a neutral venue? The England football teams home ground is Wembley-if they play Germany at Wembley is that a neutral venue?

iDave · 17-04-2014 9:56am

So much crazy talk of professionalism. Anyone who says its on the way has a poor grasp on economics....and human behaviour in general.
32 counties, 2 codes plus a couple of non Irish based teams. Squads of anywhere between 20-30. Managers, selectors etc.
Where is the money going to come from to pay for all that while continuing to pay for the existing outgoings?
Not to mention most professional sports contract academy players, developments/reserve squads etc which in GAA terms are minor, u-21, junior panels.
When you give people money they will ALWAYS want more over time. Performance/victory bonuses. Wage increases for long time employees.
Where will all this money come from?
Professionalism will bankrupt GAA. The GAA know it. I wont happen.

MayoAreMagic · 17-04-2014 10:10am

ArielAtom wrote: »

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

Who says a team can have only 1 home ground? If mayo played galway in mchale park and then in westport, surely both games would be classes as being at home? Dublin are at home in croke park. Claiming otherwise insults people's intelligence.

Prop Joe · 17-04-2014 10:13am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The only professional model we would be able to support would be similar to professional soccer in this country but that is a mess. Players are usually contracted for the duration of the season, go on the dole or look for other work in the off season and hope to get another contract next season. There is no security, career prospects not good, the money isn’t great and for many it is not as attractive as a full time job, especially if you have a family to support. It is not good for the sport or the players. The reality is the expenses system will change and more money will be funnelled to players that way while retaining the guise of amateurism and players needing other work, rather than full time professional contracts.

This is 1000% correct

mickmackey1 · 17-04-2014 10:27am

iDave wrote: »

32 counties, 2 codes plus a couple of non Irish based teams. Squads of anywhere between 20-30. Managers, selectors etc.

That's actually not a lot of people. There are literally hundreds of Irish companies with more employees than that. At the end of the day if every inter-county team went professional, it would be the equivalent of two relatively small businesses starting up in each county.

And there is no comparison with the rugby/soccer situation, the GAA has a vastly greater number of followers.

iDave · 17-04-2014 10:35am

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That's actually not a lot of people. There are literally hundreds of Irish companies with more employees than that. At the end of the day if every inter-county team went professional, it would be the equivalent of two relatively small businesses starting up in each county.

And there is no comparison with the rugby/soccer situation, the GAA has a vastly greater number of followers.

Most Irish companies with those numbers aren't already reinvested its income elsewhere. Ok perhaps theres enough to pay the players with the outlined numbers.
Say good bye to any money going towards new clubhouses, equipment etc. Forever.
Individual county boards employing approx. 100 people. Jesus I'd like to how that would work.

Yes GAA has more followers than Rugby and soccer.
GAA doesn't have money spinning internationals or cross border competitions with much more lucrative TV deals than they've negotiated.

Realt Dearg Sec · 17-04-2014 10:38am

ArielAtom wrote: »

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

And yet Dublin play their home league matches in croke park. Very generous of them, giving up home advantage like that, clearly gives the opposition a leg up.

bobbysands81 · 17-04-2014 10:39am

buyer95 wrote: »

It's nothing of the sort. Bernard Brogan has never played a championship game outside Croker. Just saying.

That doesn't change the fact that Croke Park is not Dublin's home ground.

Whether playing nearly all of our matches at Croke Park is an advantage to us or to our opponents is an entirely different debate.

youcancallmeal · 17-04-2014 10:59am

I think a good way to do it would be to keep county teams amateur and let them play in a 2 tier all Ireland Championship then scrap the national leagues and replace them with a league of professional teams loosely based on Regions so there is some sort of way to attract supporters. Would probably take a few years to get going and pick up interest but keeps everyone happy?

harpsman · 17-04-2014 11:03am

yop wrote: »

He must have got his 1st class honors degree from the internet so. :rolleyes:

Well DIT:rolleyes:. (its honours btw-you re not in the USA now)

ShaggyQueen · 17-04-2014 11:07am

ArielAtom wrote: »

Dublin play most of no all their games away in Croke Park. It is the home of GAA and not Dublin's exclusively. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground. It's like saying when two top fllite clubs from any major European city play their City rivals in their rivals ground "sure the might as well be at home". Just Saying.

Nonsense. How many league or championship games will Dublin play at Parnell Park this year?

harpsman · 17-04-2014 11:11am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That doesn't change the fact that Croke Park is not Dublin's home ground.

Whether playing nearly all of our matches at Croke Park is an advantage to us or to our opponents is an entirely different debate.

Who said Croke Park was Dublins home ground?-not me anyway,and I started the thread. Just because somewhere is not your official home ground doesnt mean that youre not at home when playing there,as I explained earlier in a way that a 4 year old could understand.

iDave · 17-04-2014 11:12am

Croke Park is a de facto home ground for Dublin simple as.

flutered · 17-04-2014 11:21am

iDave wrote: »

So much crazy talk of professionalism. Anyone who says its on the way has a poor grasp on economics....and human behaviour in general.
32 counties, 2 codes plus a couple of non Irish based teams. Squads of anywhere between 20-30. Managers, selectors etc.
Where is the money going to come from to pay for all that while continuing to pay for the existing outgoings?
Not to mention most professional sports contract academy players, developments/reserve squads etc which in GAA terms are minor, u-21, junior panels.
When you give people money they will ALWAYS want more over time. Performance/victory bonuses. Wage increases for long time employees.
Where will all this money come from?
Professionalism will bankrupt GAA. The GAA know it. I wont happen.

to say that managers and their back ups are doing it for the love of the game is not funny, its halarious, physio is now a cottage industary, a few years back i worked in then the biggest sports facility in ireland, probably still is, the county hurling team were hammered one weekend, on monday evening training another guy and i counted 18 players lined up in a que for the phisio, funds are there, when the builder bloke bailey was dublins co chairman it was said the panel were on a new house to bring sam back to dublin.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-04-2014 11:25am

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That's actually not a lot of people. There are literally hundreds of Irish companies with more employees than that. At the end of the day if every inter-county team went professional, it would be the equivalent of two relatively small businesses starting up in each county.

And there is no comparison with the rugby/soccer situation, the GAA has a vastly greater number of followers.

But where is the revenue going to come from to support 40 odd professional teams ?
Relatively small businesses earn revenue by selling goods and services, if they don't sell anything they go bust.
If professionalism was introduced football would look like this
1 team in Dublin
1 team in the rest of Leinster
1 team in Ulster
1 team in Connaught
1 team in Kerry
1 team in the rest of Munster
IMO that I about all that is sustainable given the size of the Irish market.

Amalgamation is another thing.
I could see a situation where out of necessity smaller counties would join with bigger ones to make a re-vamped championship a viable option.

yop · 17-04-2014 11:29am

harpsman wrote: »

Well DIT:rolleyes:. (its honours btw-you re not in the USA now)

Its "you're" btw...

munchkin_utd · 17-04-2014 11:41am

flutered wrote: »

to say that managers and their back ups are doing it for the love of the game is not funny, its halarious, physio is now a cottage industary, a few years back i worked in then the biggest sports facility in ireland, probably still is, the county hurling team were hammered one weekend, on monday evening training another guy and i counted 18 players lined up in a que for the phisio, funds are there, when the builder bloke bailey was dublins co chairman it was said the panel were on a new house to bring sam back to dublin.

hilarous

because a physio or 2 can be paid for an evenings work the OBVIOUSLY theres the cash for 32 players on a panel to quit their job and work full time.
A few 100euro of a physio bill equates to being able to pay 32players 33grand a piece (average industrial wage as a base reference) making a total bill of over a million a year.

And a sky sport deal that brings a marginal net increase (so a fraction of a fraction of 10million euro total media income) will pay for something between 48 and 60+ squads of 32players to quit their jobs.
So a few hundred grand increase in tv money = being able to afford a wage bill of 40/50/60 million a year overnight

I heard the maths crisis in Ireland was bad, but the abiliity to do even the most basic of sums seems to be lost on some.

yop · 17-04-2014 11:50am

The Eircom league is the prime example of why GAA should never go PRO.
The only ones saying its a step to professionalism is a couple of players, I don't know what the deal from Sky is worth or I suspect the players dont either, we are not the PL or CL so never ever going to get massive revenues from matches.

Its daftness even taking some of what is said serious.

iDave · 17-04-2014 12:03pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

hilarous

because a physio or 2 can be paid for an evenings work the OBVIOUSLY theres the cash for 32 players on a panel to quit their job and work full time.
A few 100euro of a physio bill equates to being able to pay 32players 33grand a piece (average industrial wage as a base reference) making a total bill of over a million a year.

And a sky sport deal that brings a marginal net increase (so a fraction of a fraction of 10million euro total media income) will pay for something between 48 and 60+ squads of 32players to quit their jobs.
So a few hundred grand increase in tv money = being able to afford a wage bill of 40/50/60 million a year overnight

I heard the maths crisis in Ireland was bad, but the abiliity to do even the most basic of sums seems to be lost on some.

Lets do a few sums for the craic.
Football only for now.
32 counties. We'll say football in KK doesn't exist and ignore NY. Include London.

A panel of 25 (this is being generous) all paid the average industrial wage of 33k
So 32 county teams of 25 is 800 people
800 x 33000 = 26 400 000

So 26400000 wage bill suddenly appears. Ignoring hurling. Ignoring managers/selectors wages. Ignore reserve/development squads. Ignoring wage increases, bonuses etc.

Ye but Sky are showing 14 games so it has to go professional :rolleyes:

leonidas83 · 17-04-2014 12:08pm

yop wrote: »

He must have got his 1st class honors degree from the internet so. :rolleyes:

Studying physical education at DIT. Whats your point

WesternZulu · 17-04-2014 12:11pm

But sure the GAA have loads of money hid away under the floorboards of Croke Park.

Look at the money they have got from Sky, they didn't pay a penny towards Croker; all paid for by the tax payer, and they get billions in Government grants while not having to pay the players at all.

They don't call them the Grab All Association for nothing

*Said with tongue firmly in cheek

iDave · 17-04-2014 12:20pm

WesternZulu wrote: »

But sure the GAA have loads of money hid away under the floorboards of Croke Park.

Look at the money they have got from Sky, they didn't pay a penny towards Croker; all paid for by the tax payer, and they get billions in Government grants while not having to pay the players at all.

They don't call them the Grab All Association for nothing

*Said with tongue firmly in cheek

and theres a few replays. Sure they made billions from those. Its so obvious these matches are choreographed from start to finish too to get a draw. Sure they love a good draw.

K-9 · 17-04-2014 12:42pm

buyer95 wrote: »

It's nothing of the sort. Bernard Brogan has never played a championship game outside Croker. Just saying.

It really is a pointless debate and you nailed why.

bootybouncer · 17-04-2014 12:45pm

Wasn't so long ago that Dublin were being beat in some of the best games of football ever witnessed in croke park!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( country folk talk) and being embarrassed in others.............................now that the Dubs have a bit of run on things the muldoons are up in arms ...............................double standards as always from the folks living studying and earning their crust in the capital................................. and imagine the excellent brigadier general dermot early once got lost coming out of the dressing rooms of croke park such was his familiarity of the grounds hence the reasoning why dublin were beating them on those big days (a game of inches).......................................yes dermot I want you to lead the charge on foreign grounds

munchkin_utd · 17-04-2014 1:04pm

WTF
O Shea never mentioned ANYTHING about croke park and Dublin and unfair advantages related to location of fixtures.

he was on about professionaliation and abandoning of the current intercounty structures, if anyone would be actually bothered to read the article

ArielAtom · 17-04-2014 1:08pm

buyer95 wrote: »

It's nothing of the sort. Bernard Brogan has never played a championship game outside Croker. Just saying.

Glad we are in agreement that BB has never played a Champo match at home then.