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Nissan Leaf charging costs

  • 09-10-2012 6:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭


    We're investigating getting an EV (electric vehicle) at the moment and trying to work out the figures.

    I've see Nissan say that the operating cost is 1c/km. I've just worked out that my current car is costing me about 16.c/km so this looks like a good saving.

    However, no matter what I do I can't see where they are getting this 1c/km cost from *in Ireland*.

    Here's the rough figures -
    *Battery capacity is listed as 24kWh - more or less consistent with their figure of 8 hours to charge using a 3.3kW charging system
    *Electricity at the moment from most suppliers is in or around the 17c/kWh rate
    *A 24kWh charge @ 17c/kWh equals a cost to charge of about €4
    *A full charge is supposed to get you 100 miles or 160 km, so this works out at about 2.55c per km

    I can't see any way to get this down anywhere near a cost of 1c/km unless I'm missing something fundamental. Does anyone know something about the calculations that I'm overlooking ?

    z

    p.s. one thing that they *might* be taking into account, but I've seen no reference to in Ireland is using solar for charging, in which case the cost to charge would approach zero given the right conditions. Does anyone know how feasible solar (or wind) is for trickle charging EVs ?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    Charge it at night rate (need day/night meter and a higher standing charge)
    About 9C/kWh


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Aha. That would make sense alright. Using 9c/kWh the figures come out at about 1.35c/km. That is at least approaching their figure of 1c/km.

    Does anyone know the story about wind and/or solar charging options ?

    z


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    zagmund wrote: »
    Aha. That would make sense alright. Using 9c/kWh the figures come out at about 1.35c/km. That is at least approaching their figure of 1c/km.

    Does anyone know the story about wind and/or solar charging options ?

    z

    Unless you have your own generation source, you will have to hook it up to the mains and charge with the national electricity generation mix which is currently:
    Gas - 61%
    Coal - 14.3%
    Wind - 9.7%
    Peat 7.8% (shameful..!)
    Oil - 2.3%
    Hydro - 2.1%


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Macha wrote: »
    Unless you have your own generation source, you will have to hook it up to the mains and charge with the national electricity generation mix which is currently:
    Gas - 61%
    Coal - 14.3%
    Wind - 9.7%
    Peat 7.8% (shameful..!)
    Oil - 2.3%
    Hydro - 2.1%

    Yup, I understand that. I'm still interested in solar as a possibility though.

    z


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    zagmund wrote: »
    Yup, I understand that. I'm still interested in solar as a possibility though.

    z

    You can get PV panels for your house. Afraid SEAI don't do grants for it anymore.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,812 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    zagmund wrote: »
    Yup, I understand that. I'm still interested in solar as a possibility though.

    z

    You'll need to figure out the return on investment of solar. Will the car be at the solar panels all day or away from them? If it's away then you'd need to invest in batteries to by charged by the panels during the day and then transferred to the car over night. The Renaults with the swappable batteries may be an idea, if you can buy a 2nd set for reasonable money and they can be charged out of the car.

    You'd also need a fairly large solar panel(s) for this country, have you the space to install them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    Powering it off the mains will be by far the cheapest option.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    I have a Citroen C-Zero. Similar figures, but slightly smaller range. If you use off-peak electricity at night, you come close to the figures suggested by Nissan. Also, although the battery is 24KwHrs, I don't think it is normal practice to run it right down to zero. I don't know enough about Li-ion, but with other batteries, you always keep them above 10% or 20%. So perhaps it doesn't take the full 24Kw Hrs.

    So say 22Kw Hrs at our day/night rate of 7.3c is €1.60 for a full charge. QED. But in practice, we normally get a bit less mileage from our car than the claimed spec, so I would add 33% to the figures and you're getting close.

    By the way, part of the logic behind EVs is to create night-time consumption of electricity. As we put more wind energy on the grid, we need more EVs to buy that power back at night. So in a sense, using daytime electricity defeats the purpose a bit...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Where does the electricity come from to power these cars?

    Coal powered stations??

    If so,then its not a very eco friendly car,when you stop and think about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭maddragon


    I've checked this out at length and am waiting for the Renault Zoe due out in early 2013. It has 5 seats, a further range than the Leaf and is much much cheaper (circa €18000 according to the dealer incl grant)

    Battery rental about €70per month. I am installing a 3.6kw solar carport as most of the day the car will be at home as the wife and I work from home.

    The Zoe will also have fast charge which the other Renault ZEs and the Leaf do not have AFAIK.

    Anyone interested in a solar carport can pm me for details. Exempt planning if under 25 sq m footprint and does not extrude from the line of the front if the house...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Where does the electricity come from to power these cars?

    Coal powered stations??

    If so,then its not a very eco friendly car,when you stop and think about it.


    There's only one coal powered plant in Ireland and it only runs when it's cheaper than other options.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Heroditas wrote: »
    There's only one coal powered plant in Ireland and it only runs when it's cheaper than other options.


    So is the power supplied to the outdoor charging points made from wind power,or how is it made?

    Just wondering here,thats all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭maddragon


    paddy147 wrote: »
    So is the power supplied to the outdoor charging points made from wind power,or how is it made?

    Just wondering here,thats all.


    http://www.electricireland.com/electricirelandni/business/manage-your-account/fuel-mix.jsp

    Sorry, just spotted Machas figures which are more up to date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    paddy147 wrote: »
    So is the power supplied to the outdoor charging points made from wind power,or how is it made?

    Just wondering here,thats all.


    In the all-island market:
    Gas - 64%
    Coal - 16%
    Renewables - 12%
    Peat - 6%
    Oil - 1.6%
    Other - 0.4%


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    maddragon wrote: »


    Gas is highest,by a mile.

    Coal is 2nd highest.

    interesting.


    But Im wondering what source they use for the power/charging points around the country???

    Thanks for that.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    paddy147 wrote: »
    G


    But Im wondering what source they use for the power/charging points around the country???

    Thanks for that.:)


    Not being smart but you do know how the network works, don't you?
    You can't isolate one type of fuel source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    maddragon wrote: »
    Anyone interested in a solar carport can pm me for details. Exempt planning if under 25 sq m footprint and does not extrude from the line of the front if the house...

    I'm sure most of us would be interested [int he tech]. Publish here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    Heroditas wrote: »
    In the all-island market:
    Gas - 64%
    Coal - 16%
    Renewables - 12%
    Peat - 6%
    Oil - 1.6%
    Other - 0.4%

    This looks slightly out if date, renewables is heading to somewhere between 16-17 % this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks for all the replies. I've looked at the Renaults and the cheaper purchase price seems attractive for sure, but the battery rental is a bit of a problem. In essence I would be swapping a small enough petrol charge per month for a slightly smaller battery rental.

    Admittedly/hopefully I would end up 8 years later with a new (new technology and more efficient) battery while the Leaf owners would end up with a large partially charging battery they need to dispose of or re-purpose and a new battery to buy.

    I've had my original question (about the charging prices) answered and I'm happy enough to discuss the merits or otherwise of EVs in the motor forum rather than fill up this forum with motoring issues. I still think Nissan are being a bit optimistic in their 1c/km pricing. Using Quentins pricing of 7.3c/kWh it still works out at 1.095c/km. It may seem trivial, but it's almost 10% different. That's like saying 33mpg when it's actually (and measurably) 30mpg. I know you wouldn't run the battery down to 0 charge, but the ratios should still stay the same - use half a battery charge to travel half the distance and recharge with half the electricity - the electricity consumed over the distance travelled will remain the same.

    maddragon - if we go down the EV route, I may well make contact about the car port option.

    z


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    I think the charging points are really just for emergencies, or the odd trip where you need to recharge. I haven't even bothered to get the cable for it. A range of 75 miles daily covers our needs, and we always recharge at night, when the balance of energy sources is zero peat and a lot more renewables. And cheaper of course.

    So the breakdown above is hopefully irrelevant for most EVs.

    By the way, if you put solar panels on your carport, you would be doing the environment a favour by sending that to the grid, and then taking back the power at night. During the daytime you are displacing peat production, at night you're often sucking up surplus wind power. Solar should get a better feed in tariff because by and large, it produces energy when people need it most.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    pljudge321 wrote: »
    Heroditas wrote: »
    In the all-island market:
    Gas - 64%
    Coal - 16%
    Renewables - 12%
    Peat - 6%
    Oil - 1.6%
    Other - 0.4%

    This looks slightly out if date, renewables is heading to somewhere between 16-17 % this year.


    It's the figures currently being used on energy bills that have been mandated/approved by the CER.
    The figures are due to be updated soon.
    I did drop the figures to the right of the decimal point in a few places though.
    Also, the figures are all-island, not ROI.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    zagmund wrote: »
    We're investigating getting an EV (electric vehicle) at the moment and trying to work out the figures.

    I've see Nissan say that the operating cost is 1c/km. I've just worked out that my current car is costing me about 16.c/km so this looks like a good saving.

    However, no matter what I do I can't see where they are getting this 1c/km cost from *in Ireland*.

    Here's the rough figures -
    *Battery capacity is listed as 24kWh - more or less consistent with their figure of 8 hours to charge using a 3.3kW charging system
    *Electricity at the moment from most suppliers is in or around the 17c/kWh rate
    *A 24kWh charge @ 17c/kWh equals a cost to charge of about €4
    *A full charge is supposed to get you 100 miles or 160 km, so this works out at about 2.55c per km

    I can't see any way to get this down anywhere near a cost of 1c/km unless I'm missing something fundamental. Does anyone know something about the calculations that I'm overlooking ?

    z

    p.s. one thing that they *might* be taking into account, but I've seen no reference to in Ireland is using solar for charging, in which case the cost to charge would approach zero given the right conditions. Does anyone know how feasible solar (or wind) is for trickle charging EVs ?

    I posted some thoughts on my Nissan Leaf a while ago, I included some real world data on energy costs. Take a look if you're interested.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    zagmund wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies. I've looked at the Renaults and the cheaper purchase price seems attractive for sure, but the battery rental is a bit of a problem. In essence I would be swapping a small enough petrol charge per month for a slightly smaller battery rental.

    Admittedly/hopefully I would end up 8 years later with a new (new technology and more efficient) battery while the Leaf owners would end up with a large partially charging battery they need to dispose of or re-purpose and a new battery to buy.

    Carlos Ghosn (CEO of Renault/Nissan) reckons the battery will still have significant value in its post car life.



    I think battery rental is a poor option. Not owning the battery cuts you off from all the future uses you could use it for. Already you can use a Nissan Leaf to run your house in Japan.

    http://www.geekosystem.com/leaf-to-home-electric-car/
    More interesting is the charger’s ability to keep the Leaf connected to the power grid as a power source. In this scenario, the charging station recharges the vehicle at night when demand for power is lower, and draws some power from the vehicle during the day when demand for power peaks. This could not only help lower electricity bills for a household, but could also improve efficiency across the grid.

    In 5+ years when you feel that 80 or 90 percent is not good enough and you want a new battery, you could have the old pack installed in your home. Charge it at night and run your home during the day on night rate electricity. That is of course if you own the battery pack. The pack is designed to output up to 90kw, running a home is a doddle in comparison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32 kk23


    do we not consume nuclear energy via the interconnector across the irish sea ?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    kk23 wrote: »
    do we not consume nuclear energy via the interconnector across the irish sea ?
    The UK is a nett importer of power. :rolleyes:

    Interconnectors supply 2% of their electricity, twice what hydro provides.

    This means our electricity will get greener as we have a ready market for any surplus


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    The UK is a nett importer of power. :rolleyes:

    Interconnectors supply 2% of their electricity, twice what hydro provides.

    This means our electricity will get greener as we have a ready market for any surplus

    I think people are vastly overestimating the "surplus" wind we will have. The main economic argument for the EWIC has always been that its enhances our security of supply, meaning we can knock off an inefficient peaking plant or part loaded CCGT as well as bringing more competition to our market.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Heroditas wrote: »
    There's only one coal powered plant in Ireland and it only runs when it's cheaper than other options.

    That's nonsense moneypoint is a baseload plant, and can produce cheaper than wind. Also as you say its output is reduced when the wind blows its effiency nose dives so wind is responsible for the extra carbon it emits.


    Paddy wind blows at night when the cars are being charged. Plan is for them to use the spare capacity at night to make for a more efficient grid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Moneypoint's output is currently determined by the price of carbon.
    Carbon is so low at the moment that Money point is displacing CCGT plants off the system.
    It's a bit of a weird situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    zagmund wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies. I've looked at the Renaults and the cheaper purchase price seems attractive for sure, but the battery rental is a bit of a problem. In essence I would be swapping a small enough petrol charge per month for a slightly smaller battery rental.

    Admittedly/hopefully I would end up 8 years later with a new (new technology and more efficient) battery while the Leaf owners would end up with a large partially charging battery they need to dispose of or re-purpose and a new battery to buy.

    I've had my original question (about the charging prices) answered and I'm happy enough to discuss the merits or otherwise of EVs in the motor forum rather than fill up this forum with motoring issues. I still think Nissan are being a bit optimistic in their 1c/km pricing. Using Quentins pricing of 7.3c/kWh it still works out at 1.095c/km. It may seem trivial, but it's almost 10% different. That's like saying 33mpg when it's actually (and measurably) 30mpg. I know you wouldn't run the battery down to 0 charge, but the ratios should still stay the same - use half a battery charge to travel half the distance and recharge with half the electricity - the electricity consumed over the distance travelled will remain the same.

    maddragon - if we go down the EV route, I may well make contact about the car port option.

    z
    Just a tip Zagmund. We bought our Citroen C Zero as a one year old used model in the UK. You can pick them up there for about STG£12K. The dealers took in demo models a while back and are selling them off. There are Leafs there too. I'd have a look at the UK market.

    Just be aware of one thing - cars with less than 3000 miles up are liable to VAT at import, even though EVs are zero excise.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    pljudge321 wrote: »
    I think people are vastly overestimating the "surplus" wind we will have.
    Surplus wind is essentially free energy. There is a slight cost in extra maintenance. The main cost is the transmission fees.

    And yes we'd need a awful lot more wind to have a decent surplus.

    People are always quick to point out that it's possible to have little or no wind during cold spells without mentioning that peak wind is creaping up to the night valley.

    It would be interesting to compare eirgrid data , demand vs. wind vs. nameplate capacity to work out the amount of installed wind capacity that would give us what probabiliity of using wind alone, and the risk to supply of using wind + CCGT + Turlough hill + interconnectors.

    Does anyone know how long the average building or hot water tank takes to loose 1 degree of heat ?


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