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18-09-2019, 10:18   #31
Jude13
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Does he compare it in the video to an FJ Cruiser? which are the 150 series with a different shell. Basically a prado or Irish version LC.

Though all of the earlier mentioned vehicles, toyota and jeep, are well more than enough for 99% of the target buyers, so they are just ignoring farmers and search and rescue, who can by a much cheaper Hilux double cab or a Fortunner.
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18-09-2019, 12:28   #32
jochenstacker
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The Australians have a saying. If you want to go into the Outback, take a Landrover. If you want to come back, take a Landcruiser.
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18-09-2019, 13:20   #33
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What will be interesting is if the British Army test a variant or LR build a mil spec version, they have kept Landrover relevant for years. The wolf version of the defender was actually very reliable and had decent performance on and off road.
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18-09-2019, 13:21   #34
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It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.
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18-09-2019, 14:36   #35
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It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.
They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert. Lots of people have Jeeps of all models, they are great fun, very capable & you can make them your own. If you have loads of money, you can own a landcruiser for offroading, imense 4x4's & luxurious, but expensive. Litterally no one drives any Land Rover or Range Rover in the desert... it is a silly idea and it's not what they are best at. They are designed for the higway and getting out of at the hotel valet.

Pickups are also hugely popular in the Middle East... F150's, Hilux, Rams, Rangers, Old Style Patrols...

It's often commented on that when you watch the news, you will always see militants and armys in pickups with a big read 'Toyota' across the tail gate... theres a reason for that, they are incredibly capable.

The Old Defender is still popular for expedition and overlanding... because the parts are easily available across the Middle East, Africa & the rest of the world, but the only reason they would be taken into extreme offroad conditions would be for nostalgia... They are capable but others are just more capable.

The new defender is unlikely to fit the criteria of a modern army, unless just used for ferrying passengers on road.
  • Some of the critera for traditional offroaders:
  • Ladder Chassis or similar. Easy to weld, fix, change
  • Flat body panels as much as possible. Easy to fix, weld, change
  • Simple bumper with end caps. Change for different style where necessary, broken ends can be taken off, or replaced. Winches etc.
  • Round headlights. Can be changed anywhere, by anyone, anywhere in the world (universal part). The ones I put on my Jeep JK were from Harley Davidson
  • Small wheels, big tyres. Surface area is king. Note the new Dender has 20" wheels and low profile tyres... Not made to go off the N11
  • Simple Access... I did allot of mods to my FJ & JK myself... wiring was relitively easy, as was access under floors etc. How would you wire a set of rooftop lights on the new defender & how would you fix additional buttons and switches to the dash?
  • On body towing points. These should be chassis mounted, or you'll rip your bumper off. This is not for towing, but for removing a vehicle from deep mud or sand... this is done under massive force and resistance using kenetic ropes that produce massive energy... threaded tow points are not adviseable, nore are bumer mounted points, or you're liable to lose a bumper.
The new defender is a lifestyle choice, not an offroad vehicle.
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18-09-2019, 15:00   #36
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For those with reliability concerns LR sell a "Get You Home' pack. You simply attach the winch to something solid before setting off into the wild.

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18-09-2019, 20:37   #37
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An interesting alternative still available on the South African market for circa £50k, 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser.

Quote:
Prices start at the equivalent of just under £50,000. Take into account the fact this thing may well outlive you, your kids and their kids, and that doesn’t sound so bad.



https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suv...mib-tremendous

Also on the horizon this...
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suv...se-british-4x4
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18-09-2019, 21:30   #38
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They've been selling the 70 series in various body styles, 7 seater, pick up, traybed, troop carrier etc in S.A and AUS for years.. the V8 diesel in them doesn't meet Euro emissions regs, so they can't sell them here new. You can of course personally import one second hand...

With the defender going the route it has, the 70 series is the last proper ladder frame multi-purpose truck out there. Of course, not many people here need that level of over engineering either
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18-09-2019, 21:48   #39
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I think the new Defender is everything the old defender was not. Anyone who knows the old Defender won't buy a new one. Why? Because they probably still own one of the old defenders!
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18-09-2019, 21:57   #40
krissovo
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Because they probably still own one of the old defenders!
I know an old fella near me who has one of the last defenders off the production line in storage with less than 1000k’s on the clock. He is waiting for his current defender to die.
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19-09-2019, 04:59   #41
Jude13
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Originally Posted by Bluefoam View Post
They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert.
I would query that, many firms/divisions have bought the new patrol (with a few mods, basically front and back bumpers, not to mention the armored version) solely for desert use after rigorous testing versus the LC. one saffa private security said they bring at least one new patrol to help out the LC's. Would have to disagree with the FJ being most capable on the said also. I will ask the BAE guys when I am back in KSA what they think of the new Patrol as they received a batch of them instead of the LC's.

I did the empty quarter in a LR many moons ago at it was cappable but nothing on the toyota's / nissans. The LR defender would be for getting stuck in electric picnic
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19-09-2019, 09:17   #42
jochenstacker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantic Dawn View Post
An interesting alternative still available on the South African market for circa £50k, 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser.



https://www.topgear.com/sites/defaul...?itok=ZvzuDPkX


https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suv...mib-tremendous

Also on the horizon this...
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suv...se-british-4x4
That is a thing of beauty. I don't like new cars, flimsy crap with complicated mechanics that will all be broken well before 200k km* with crappy plastic exterior that will look good for about 3 years before any kind of shunt will bend it out of shape and it will never sit right again.
Gimme something like that that can still be repaired with a hammer, a screwdriver and a few spanners.
But how long before any kind of ICE vehicle is Verboten everywhere? We will be forced by law to buy that new shit and we won't have a choice as cars cost minimum €20k and they turn into scrap on the dot at 5 yeras old, because nobody will insure it anymore and they won't be allowed to be driven anywhere.
I guess leasing a car and sharing it between different parties, or maybe they will all be self driving and you just call one via app to take you where you want to go? Won't be a pretty future. Cars will be anonymous econo boxes that can be thrown on the garbage as soon as the first part lunches itself on the dot of 100k km like it was designed to do.


*
And I'm absolutely convinced with a few fatal flaws designed into it on purpose.
Those cars get ever more complicated and manufacturers have to save every penny. And they do so at the expense of the buyer. So it's ok to save a few cents on things like the fuel injection system, timing chain, clutch and a few other vital parts that will crap themselves at 5 years and basically write off the car, because all you can do is put in the same crap again and keep driving a ticking time bomb.
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19-09-2019, 10:02   #43
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Does this mean the Wrangler has the hardcore off road market to itself?
Theres a new shape one driving around Dublin 2 and its really growing on me. Matte grey and wide wheels.
If the claims being made for it are correct then this Defender can still do "hardcore off road".

That's a big IF though as the claims been made for the new Defender are pretty big.
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19-09-2019, 10:20   #44
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We can also be absolutely certain that people are going to directly compare the new Defender with the old off road .

Suspect the UK Land Rover magazines will do exactly that as soon as they can get their hands on a production model for long enough .

So frankly it would be ludicrous for Land Rover to make claims that will be very quickly tested.
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19-09-2019, 14:38   #45
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The new defender might be able to compete with the old one or with other robust offroaders. But will it do it reliably for 10-20 years of hard driving, towing, mud, neglected servicing and occasional gunfire hits?? Not a chance! It's nothing more than a plastic Dalkey tractor. Coming to a school gate near you soon.

The real test of what is a capable off road utility vehicle is what the ESB have and what you see outside the mart on mart day.
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