Marathon Improvers Thread.

Testosterscone · 06-06-2017 11:30am

The Black Oil wrote: »

Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th.

Does the Graduates plan not have a base phase for 6 weeks also? (I thought the one I downloaded did anyway)

The Black Oil · 06-06-2017 8:49pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

Does the Graduates plan not have a base phase for 6 weeks also? (I thought the one I downloaded did anyway)

Yes, it's in tab/sheet after the notes section of the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/edit#gid=950799331

Kennyg71 · 06-06-2017 9:31pm

The Black Oil wrote: »

Yes, it's in tab/sheet after the notes section of the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/edit#gid=950799331

Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.

The Black Oil · 06-06-2017 9:41pm

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.

I completed the base plan in January, followed by the 5-10k plan into the new year/Spring. Sounds like it's worth redoing the base rather than using the 10k-HM as a stop gap until the marathon plan?

Coincidentally, I got an email today from McMillan re progression runs. Haven't read it all...yet.

S.L.F. · 07-06-2017 1:26am

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.

I think I'll follow Kenny's advice for this also and hop into the base plan. This will take me to the Fingal 10 km and then its start of marathon plan next day.

hot buttered scones · 08-06-2017 12:59pm

I finally decided that I'll definitely follow P+D for Dublin, but which one?
First of all I'm going to follow one of there 5 week recovery plans form the book. This suits me because it coincides with the family holiday and I just don't want to train hard when I'm away this year. I've done it for the last two years - I enjoy running when I'm away, but I just don;t want to train hard this year.
Anyway that brings me to the 9th of July. A 12 week programme would start on the 31st of July. So I'd have 3 weeks were I could just add a bit more mileage and just increase the long run a small bit and maybe fit in a couple of Wednesday evening races too.
Or - and this where I'm leaning more - I could do a bit of a mix. If I do mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then jump into the 18 week plan I get a 15 week plan. I loose out of some of the endurance weeks, but I'm hoping that the training I've done for Cork will stand to me for this.
The only question that remains is which plan - up to 55 or up to 70. I had good results with the up to 55 last year. For Cork though my mileage peaked at 67, and I had a few more weeks above 55. I think the ideal mileage for me is somewhere between the up to 55 and the up to 70. Also 6 days a week running suits me too. I have a few weeks left to decide what to do.

boydkev · 08-06-2017 1:17pm

I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?

Itziger · 08-06-2017 2:23pm

boydkev wrote: »

I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?

Yes, I bought it years ago and even though it didn't quite do it for me, that was probably me more than the book

hot buttered scones · 08-06-2017 2:45pm

boydkev wrote: »

I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?

It's essential if you want to follow the plans. I went with the P+D up to 55 plan for Dublin last year. I started out with a goal of 3:30 which shifted to 3:25 during training and I ended up running 3:21:4x. It starts out handy enough, but it builds quickly, and I did find it quite tough in the end. I got a good result from it though. I don't think you'll find it any easier than the HH advanced plan though. for example 8 weeks out you'll do the following:
Mon: Rest or C/T Tues: 7 miles Recovery with 6x100m strides: Wed: 11 miles with 7@LT (10m to HMP) Thurs: Rest or C/T Fri: 12 miles Medium Long Run Sat: 5 recovery Sun: 20 long. Total: 55
P+D long runs aren't exactly LSRs either. You start out at MP+20% and you slowly increase pace until you finish off with around 5 miles at MP+10%. He also has a 3 tune up races on Saturday of around 10k with a long run of 16 or 17 miles on the Sunday. It is an advanced plan.

Megager · 08-06-2017 8:18pm

I'm not sure where to go from here.

I started running Jan 2016, did clontarf half in July 16 and dublin marathon in 2016. I'm 42 this year.

I signed up for Dublin before cork marathon. Did my own version of a plan for cork which improved my time between 1st and second marathon s from 3:54 DCM 2016 to 3:25.40 in cork.
In 2017 ive got half marathon down to 1:29:58 and 5 km to 18:27, so it seemed to suit to a point.

Basically just went with 7m 5@ mp, 7m 5 @ mp, speed session, 7m easy, 7 (tempo) , rest and long runs and stuck to that most weeks. On occasion if I had rest days Fridays followed by a park run and few very easy miles. However I did my long runs too close to mp for a few months, in fact rather worryingly many of my long runs were a bit faster than I managed on the day. I think that may have contributed to my late race fade, i lost a minute or so in last 2 miles.

I am limited a bit by time and real life as we all are but will commit to at least 5 days and most weeks 6 day running. The problem is I'm in Canada for 2 weeks in early August and that the nature of the trip is such that for 2 weeks I am unlikely to get any long runs in.

I am not sure what improvement if any ive in me. I may have reached my limit, though there is a nagging dissatisfaction that I ran slower on the day than I did on many long runs. Should I stick to what I'm doing or is there a more efficient plan I should try. Also when would training for dublin need to start, bearing in mind ive just finished a cycle. I do think some rest is needed now before another assault.

Thanks a million for reading this ramble.

Wubble Wubble · 08-06-2017 8:38pm

How's it going, only discovered this one recently. Thanks to HBS for starting it up!

Very briefly; 44, male, signed up for DCM 2017, which all going well will be my third marathon.

Previous two attempts:

Paris 2014, no discernible plan, playing football at the same time, 4:18

DCM 2016, 3:49, following the Boards plan for Novices, with a weekly high of 43 miles.

I like the sound of P&D Advanced 18 weeks with a 55 mile high for the week. However, with just a couple of weeks to the start of this, I'm nowhere near the suggested 40 mpw; more like 30 in a good week.

I could use the Boards plan again if, as is likely, this isn't a realistic option this time. However, that smacks somewhat of doing the same thing and expecting a different result; any improvement in time would probably be just down to having an extra year of running in the bag.

With this in mind, can anyone recommend something in between that they've tried successfully? All or any suggestions welcome!

Kennyg71 · 08-06-2017 8:53pm

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

How's it going, only discovered this one recently. Thanks to HBS for starting it up!

Very briefly; 44, male, signed up for DCM 2017, which all going well will be my third marathon.

Previous two attempts:

Paris 2014, no discernible plan, playing football at the same time, 4:18

DCM 2016, 3:49, following the Boards plan for Novices, with a weekly high of 43 miles.

I like the sound of P&D Advanced 18 weeks with a 55 mile high for the week. However, with just a couple of weeks to the start of this, I'm nowhere near the suggested 40 mpw; more like 30 in a good week.

I could use the Boards plan again if, as is likely, this isn't a realistic option this time. However, that smacks somewhat of doing the same thing and expecting a different result; any improvement in time would probably be just down to having an extra year of running in the bag.

With this in mind, can anyone recommend something in between that they've tried successfully? All or any suggestions welcome!

Why not try Meno plan, plenty of sessions and MP work, starts between35-40 miles, did it last year an PB for half but got injured, knocked 7 mins off HM time
Injury nothing to do with plan. Murph has used on 2 or 3 occasions with success.
HBS posted in this thread few pages back.

AuldManKing · 08-06-2017 10:45pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I finally decided that I'll definitely follow P+D for Dublin, but which one?
First of all I'm going to follow one of there 5 week recovery plans form the book. This suits me because it coincides with the family holiday and I just don't want to train hard when I'm away this year. I've done it for the last two years - I enjoy running when I'm away, but I just don;t want to train hard this year.
Anyway that brings me to the 9th of July. A 12 week programme would start on the 31st of July. So I'd have 3 weeks were I could just add a bit more mileage and just increase the long run a small bit and maybe fit in a couple of Wednesday evening races too.
Or - and this where I'm leaning more - I could do a bit of a mix. If I do mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then jump into the 18 week plan I get a 15 week plan. I loose out of some of the endurance weeks, but I'm hoping that the training I've done for Cork will stand to me for this.
The only question that remains is which plan - up to 55 or up to 70. I had good results with the up to 55 last year. For Cork though my mileage peaked at 67, and I had a few more weeks above 55. I think the ideal mileage for me is somewhere between the up to 55 and the up to 70. Also 6 days a week running suits me too. I have a few weeks left to decide what to do.

You could do the 55 and add mileage to it where you see fit. A couple of miles extra on a run here and there - an additional 4m run every now and then.
Use the plan as a guide rather than a set in stone kinda thing.

I merged the structure of the P&D plan last yer but included some MP sessions into 1 of the MLR's each week. This really helped me as I dont think that P&D has enough MP pace miles in it.

quick feet · 09-06-2017 12:09am

Really enjoying reading this thread,touching on alot of topics that relate to myself..
This is my 4th year training for a marathon
dcm 2014 ..3.41 hal Higdon novice
Dcm 2015.. 3.28 run coach
Berlin 2016... 3.26 runcoach ..loosely followed..
Dcm 2016.. 3.24 off berlin training
I'm in for dublin and berlin again, just coming to the end of the mcmillan10k plan then hoping to jump into p&d 12 week up to 55 plan.. I'm a relatively low milage runner avg 30 m.p/w with 37 being the max so far.. consistantly training 4 times per week and currently on long run of 14-16miles..
Basically I'm just curious as to what are the most popular plans coming into marathon season and what marathon your taking part in..for me
Berlin p&d up to 55

hot buttered scones · 09-06-2017 11:49am

AuldManKing wrote: »

You could do the 55 and add mileage to it where you see fit. A couple of miles extra on a run here and there - an additional 4m run every now and then.
Use the plan as a guide rather than a set in stone kinda thing.

I merged the structure of the P&D plan last yer but included some MP sessions into 1 of the MLR's each week. This really helped me as I dont think that P&D has enough MP pace miles in it.

boydkev · 09-06-2017 1:06pm

That looks like a plan that would suit me with a few tweeks and adding in a weeks holiday middle of august.
Sorry for this stupid question, What do you mean by MLR, GA and extra recovery.

hot buttered scones · 09-06-2017 1:14pm

boydkev wrote: »

That looks like a plan that would suit me with a few tweeks and adding in a weeks holiday middle of august.
Sorry for this stupid question, What do you mean by MLR, GA and extra recovery.

That plan is basically copied outright form the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pfitzinger and Daniels and you really need to read it if your doing the plan. Everything is explained really well in the book. Amazon does a kindle version that you can read on your phone or PC if you don;t want to buy the hard copy.
MLR=medium long run - any run between 11 and 15 miles to be run at long run pace range (Start at MP+20% and gradually increase pace to MP+10%)
GA=General Aerobic=Ordinary easy pace runs
Extra Recovery - these are extra days of running I've put into the plan for myself to increase the weekly mileage. On the plan itself these days are scheduled as Rest/Cross Training days. The plan maxes out at 55m/week over 5 days, whereas I'm going for 60m/week over 6 days. I've also made a few more small changes as to when some runs are scheduled because I work odd hours

boydkev · 09-06-2017 1:16pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

That plan is basically copied outright form the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pfitzinger and Daniels and you really need to read it if your doing the plan. Everything is explained really well in the book. Amazon does a kindle version that you can read on your phone or PC if you don;t want to buy the hard copy.
MLR=medium long run - any run between 11 and 15 miles to be run at long run pace range (Start at MP+20% and gradually increase pace to MP+10%)
GA=General Aerobic=Ordinary easy pace runs
Extra Recovery - these are extra days of running I've put into the plan for myself to increase the weekly mileage. On the plan itself these days are scheduled as Rest/Cross Training days. The plan maxes out at 55m/week over 5 days, whereas I'm going for 60m/week over 6 days. I've also made a few more small changes as to when some runs are scheduled because I work odd hours

Thanks HBS,

Ordered the book yesterday, So look forward to reading it.

The Black Oil · 09-06-2017 2:09pm

Saw a poster that my local club - I'm not a member - has hill sprints on Mondays and LSRs early Sunday morning. Monday is likely out as if the M50 plays up I'd be late. But the LSRs should be an option. The ad stated they've three LSRs aimed at the DCM, suitable for: 3:45, 3:45-4:15 and 4:15+.

Not sure if these are the actual ones.

http://luskathleticclub.ie/lsr-josephines-route/

http://luskathleticclub.ie/lsr-garys-route/

Perhaps something to consider after completing the base plan.

S.L.F. · 11-06-2017 11:28pm

Hi there, could anyone tell me what the following pace would be: 10 min, 7 min, 3 min (2 min jog (Threshold-CV paces)?

Is this about 80%

hot buttered scones · 12-06-2017 12:09am

S.L.F. wrote: »

Hi there, could anyone tell me what the following pace would be: 10 min, 7 min, 3 min (2 min jog (Threshold-CV paces)?

Is this about 80%

The paces are taken from here:

http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Threshold is roughly 10 mile race pace to HMP. CV is about 5mile race pace to 10k pace. I think for that session you do the 10&7@ threshold and the 3@CV.

S.L.F. · 12-06-2017 12:13am

hot buttered scones wrote: »

The paces are taken from here:

http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Threshold is roughly 10 mile race pace to HMP. CV is about 5mile race pace to 10k pace. I think for that session you do the 10&7@ threshold and the 3@CV.

That's really useful info - thanks a lot for that.

adrian522 · 16-06-2017 4:12pm

Hi,

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

My main target for the second half of the year will be a half so looking for something to base my training around. I'd probably be looking at 60ish miles per week and was thinking of 1 tempo and 1 interval session per week.

I'll have 12 weeks between Dunshaughlin and race day, but say 1 week for recovery after the 10K leaves 11 weeks of training time

I've looked at the BAA Half plan and the plans from "Faster Road Running" anything else out there?

Kennyg71 · 16-06-2017 7:00pm

adrian522 wrote: »

Hi,

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

My main target for the second half of the year will be a half so looking for something to base my training around. I'd probably be looking at 60ish miles per week and was thinking of 1 tempo and 1 interval session per week.

I'll have 12 weeks between Dunshaughlin and race day, but say 1 week for recovery after the 10K leaves 11 weeks of training time

I've looked at the BAA Half plan and the plans from "Faster Road Running" anything else out there?

MurphD doing Hanson, he has spread sheet up on his log, I'm sure he won't mind giving you heads up on the plan.

adrian522 · 16-06-2017 8:23pm

Thanks, yeah I'd seen that one too. It's interesting but I think I'd need to jump in in week 7 or so, which I guess is an option

hot buttered scones · 16-06-2017 10:43pm

adrian522 wrote:

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

If your on Strava Premium have a look at the McMillan half plan which might suit. If your not on premium - surely someone can sort you out. I could do it but I'm away until July 5th if that suits. I've had a look at some of those plans and they look ok.

Itziger · 17-06-2017 7:53am

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks, yeah I'd seen that one too. It's interesting but I think I'd need to jump in in week 7 or so, which I guess is an option

Have you looked at the Garmin plans? I've cherry-picked from the Advanced before. Wouldn't be up to all the sessions. Can't remember what the Intermediate was like.

adrian522 · 17-06-2017 12:03pm

No, didn't realise they even had plans, I'll have a look for them!

Itziger · 17-06-2017 2:49pm

adrian522 wrote: »

No, didn't realise they even had plans, I'll have a look for them!

They seem to be relatively unknown, for whatever reason. Here's the Half Advanced. It's got some tough bits in there! I tried a few of the key sessions and was happy enough with how they left me, sharpness wise.
http://static.garmincdn.com/shared/emea/custom/training/downloads/running/Half-Marathon-Training-Plan-Advanced-ENGLISH.pdf

adrian522 · 17-06-2017 2:55pm

Thanks for digging that out, looks like a good plan in fairness. I'll draw something up during the week I think.

This looks like tough..

AM - Recovery Run, 30mins //
PM - Warm-up, 10mins +10mins @ Threshold with 60seconds recovery jog + 3 x 1K @ 10K pace with 90seconds recovery jog between efforts + 10mins @ Threshold

Marathon Improvers Thread.

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