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Marathon Improvers Thread.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    kin9pin wrote: »
    Quick question on the meno plan. Is there a particular reason the long runs are on a Sunday? I know HH IM2 was all about pace runs on Saturday followed by long on Sunday,but as this plan has the main sessions on Wednesdays I take it I can move the long run to Saturdays, followed by 4-5m easy on Sunday?

    Couldn't tell you the reasons behind it as I only copied it from someone else, but if you see where I posted the original copy of the plan - in the explanations for each session there is a link to the original boards.ie post contained in the thread where the plan was first used. That thread really explains it all (Disclaimer - I've read most the explanations for the sessions, but not the whole thread)

    I was going to say do your Wednesday run on Tuesday then to get the extra easy day in between, but actually think of it this way - The current plan has 2 easy days between the long run and the session and 3 easy days between the session and the long run. What you will have is 3 easy days between the long run and the session and 2 easy days between the session and the long run. I don't really know - looking at my log, more often than not I did it the way your proposing and I think I found the long runs tougher on those weeks. But the plan is fairly flexible in that you do the long run, the session and the recovery run and then make up the rest of the mileage yourself as it suits to get yuor to your weekly mileage

    Also bear in mind that those Wednesday sessions are almost all 12 to 14 miles long themselves - so long enough runs themselves.

    I'm just posting this based on my recent experience of having used the plan, so don't take this as gospel.

    Personally I prefer to do my long runs on Sunday when work allows simply because there's less traffic and I have the roads to myself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Good thread idea, HBS.

    Just a suggestion based on my own experience. I think you'll be fine with the 12-week version of P&D given you are coming off a recent marathon cycle. It's a bit more intense than the longer version which helps to keep things fresh in a multi-marathon year. Good luck with it - all the better if you can swing the 70 mile version.

    Just kicking off a HM cycle myself, using one of the Hanson plans. Won't be targeting a marathon this year although will run Dublin for fun (mostly). May or may not have another go at Donadea 50k next year - good way to keep things going over winter, all the more so if not coming straight off a DCM cycle. That will most likely be a souped up version of P&D or perhaps one of the Daniels marathon plans.

    I've just reread this post and missed a few thing the first time around. Thanks for the advice re: P+D. I was thinking something similar as yourself, but coming at it from a different direction - my thinking was that my endurance wouldn't need as much work having trained for a marathon already this year, so 12 weeks would be enough.
    The more I look at the up to 70 plan, the more I start to think that it may be a bit too much. I'm now sort of wavering between that and maybe doing the up to 55 plan with an extra day of running maybe 5 or 6 miles easy to bring it up to 60, or doing the up to 70 plan, but reducing peak mileage to somewhere around 63-65 miles. The reason I was mixing the 12 and 18 week plans is that if I did this it fell perfectly for Charleville - but I could also do the 12 week plan with a buffer week to do a mini taper and recovery around Charleville too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    El Caballo wrote: »
    Once again, I'm not going to use a direct plan although writing this makes me think I should:pac:. I want to start getting more involved with club training again so I'll probably try and fit those in with my schedule which will probably be based around Lydiard. Decent volume with alot of highend aerobic running. Mainly a diet of long runs and steady to MP runs mid-week.

    This part of your post really caught my eye - I would know very little about Lydiard other than what I've read on the net. Is there a book you'd recommend reading, or is this stuff you've just picked up from other runners over the years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭Wottle


    From reading the training logs, I can see there are plenty of people either training for marathons or intend to start training for an autumn marathon fairly soon. We have a Novices thread and a Sub 3 support thread, so why not a thread for those of us in between?

    I think I may have come across a similar thread on this forum before, but rather then revive a zombie thread I thought I'd create a new one. (Mods: I hope that's ok)

    I just thought this we be a good place for people to discuss what plans they're using, what their goals are for the long and short term, give a bit of support and advice etc. and hopefully create a bit of traffic.

    Great idea for a thread, not sure I should be in this here though :-)
    For the last week or two I can feel myself being sucked in. Reluctant to commit just yet.
    Lots of unfinished business with the marathon, going to have a good think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭El Caballo


    This part of your post really caught my eye - I would know very little about Lydiard other than what I've read on the net. Is there a book you'd recommend reading, or is this stuff you've just picked up from other runners over the years?

    Me personally, most of what I've picked up is from reading through tons of info on him but you have to be wary as there is 100 times more misinformation out there than truth. He wrote a good few books on his training but they are difficult enough to read through because of typos and misused terms. A good place to start would be healthy intelligent training by Keith Livingstone. One tip would be to throw any idea of paces out of your head when reading it as Lydiards training was based around effort, the books also don't describe plans but Lydiards Methodology. This was a guy with an individual based approach and who coached long before the invention of gps watches so it can be difficult for the modern runner to shake off those thoughts.

    Basically if I was to sum it in short, Lydiard was a very high volume advocate with a tendency towards most of it being fast aerobic running. His thoughts were that the bigger the aerobic capacity, the higher the anaerobic potential. Even his 800m runners used to go through marathon conditioning early in the training cycle, running 100mpw at a strong aerobic pace during the base phase.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    El Caballo wrote: »
    Me personally, most of what I've picked up is from reading through tons of info on him but you have to be wary as there is 100 times more misinformation out there than truth. He wrote a good few books on his training but they are difficult enough to read through because of typos and misused terms. A good place to start would be healthy intelligent training by Keith Livingstone. One tip would be to throw any idea of paces out of your head when reading it as Lydiards training was based around effort, the books also don't describe plans but Lydiards Methodology. This was a guy with an individual based approach and who coached long before the invention of gps watches so it can be difficult for the modern runner to shake off those thoughts.

    Basically if I was to sum it in short, Lydiard was a very high volume advocate with a tendency towards most of it being fast aerobic running. His thoughts were that the bigger the aerobic capacity, the higher the anaerobic potential. Even his 800m runners used to go through marathon conditioning early in the training cycle, running 100mpw at a strong aerobic pace during the base phase.

    Thanks for that. I think I may have done a good bit of that lately - I've sort of developed an attitude of "it's easy pace if it feels easy" - I'd often only give the odd glance to my watch when running familiar route checking distance or HR mostly. I've done a lot less recovery paced runs in this cycle, but have noticed a bit of variation in the easy pace -I think I've really gotten to know what that effort should feel like, and the paces would have been at the faster end of my aerobic pace (I think). I think it suited me. Of course there was a bit of faster stuff - HMP, MP and a couple of progression runs but no fast intervals or V02 max sessions (maybe a few short strides or hill sprints). It did feel like I was doing heavy base training for a lot of it, but a couple of recent races have shown that it has made me faster. I think the lack of speedwork this time has made it easier for me to increase my weekly mileage and in fact I ran more miles than ever before without injury. I've seen far less of my physio than in any marathon training block before and it's mostly been for a sport massage and a bit of needling. If I'd have done some decent s+c I'd be in even better shape. It remains to be seen whether or not this has brought about any decent improvement in endurance - my long runs have been a bit difficult at times, which doesn't bode well, but that might be more related to fatigue or fuelling than fitness.

    I might get that book for the upcoming holidays. I'm trying to work my way through Steve Magness at the moment, but it reads like a textbook so probably not the thing for lying by the pool!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Couldn't tell you the reasons behind it as I only copied it from someone else, but if you see where I posted the original copy of the plan - in the explanations for each session there is a link to the original boards.ie post contained in the thread where the plan was first used. That thread really explains it all (Disclaimer - I've read most the explanations for the sessions, but not the whole thread)

    I was going to say do your Wednesday run on Tuesday then to get the extra easy day in between, but actually think of it this way - The current plan has 2 easy days between the long run and the session and 3 easy days between the session and the long run. What you will have is 3 easy days between the long run and the session and 2 easy days between the session and the long run. I don't really know - looking at my log, more often than not I did it the way your proposing and I think I found the long runs tougher on those weeks. But the plan is fairly flexible in that you do the long run, the session and the recovery run and then make up the rest of the mileage yourself as it suits to get yuor to your weekly mileage

    Also bear in mind that those Wednesday sessions are almost all 12 to 14 miles long themselves - so long enough runs themselves.

    I'm just posting this based on my recent experience of having used the plan, so don't take this as gospel.

    Personally I prefer to do my long runs on Sunday when work allows simply because there's less traffic and I have the roads to myself.
    As the plan moves on, the Wednesday sessions become quite intense, and so do LR which add MP and Steady portions so I think Sunday is more about giving a good recovery time between what can be two intense Sessions. Shorter recovery may be ok at start, but accumulation over a full cycle could have a negative impact. I think I would bring Wed session forward to Tuesday if doing LR on Saturday, use Sunday as rest and start on Monday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    As the plan moves on, the Wednesday sessions become quite intense, and so do LR which add MP and Steady portions so I think Sunday is more about giving a good recovery time between what can be two intense Sessions. Shorter recovery may be ok at start, but accumulation over a full cycle could have a negative impact. I think I would bring Wed session forward to Tuesday if doing LR on Saturday, use Sunday as rest and start on Monday.

    I'll freely admit I'm no example to be following!! I've done the long runs on Tuesday with a session on Sunday and then another session on the following Wednesday and finished up with a long run on Sunday. I ran over the specified mileage and didn't take a rest day for nearly 4 weeks, by which time I was b0ll0xed. I've done long runs 6 days apart. It's all been one big experiment really. But an enjoyable one (for the most part) nonetheless, and a big learning experience. I had a habit of stressing if missed a run or didn't follow some plan out of a book to the letter, or even if a session didn't go to plan - without looking at the bigger picture. I picked the meno plan because I saw it as a good chance to get a bit of flexibility and experiment a bit. But then again I have work constraints, and if I had the choice I do the plan as scheduled - the weeks I did that it worked out better I think. You have the chance to get a decent easy run in on the Friday too if you want to up your mileage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    I'll freely admit I'm no example to be following!! I've done the long runs on Tuesday with a session on Sunday and then another session on the following Wednesday and finished up with a long run on Sunday. I ran over the specified mileage and didn't take a rest day for nearly 4 weeks, by which time I was b0ll0xed. I've done long runs 6 days apart. It's all been one big experiment really. But an enjoyable one (for the most part) nonetheless, and a big learning experience. I had a habit of stressing if missed a run or didn't follow some plan out of a book to the letter, or even if a session didn't go to plan - without looking at the bigger picture. I picked the meno plan because I saw it as a good chance to get a bit of flexibility and experiment a bit. But then again I have work constraints, and if I had the choice I do the plan as scheduled - the weeks I did that it worked out better I think. You have the chance to get a decent easy run in on the Friday too if you want to up your mileage.
    I suppose it's all a personal thing and you quickly learn what you can and can not do, it's a flexible plan that you can definitely move around or do as rolling sessions, if you don't get to bogged down with a rigid week, and just take the sessions as they come. Definitely room for more mileage if you want, but not for me up to now, I have been prone to injury as mileage increases,Just about working out how you recover from sessions and take approiate recovery to suit, plenty in the plan to keep you occupied .


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,174 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

    I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

    Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

    I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

    Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.

    Would the marathon plans in the graduate plan sheet not be an obvious progression for you having done the base and 5k-10k plan? I must ahve a look at that myself actually.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

    I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

    Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.


    How comfortably did you run last year, did you race flat out or did you run within yourself, what are you interested in accomplishing this year. Faster Time or do you just want to run the distance.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,174 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Would the marathon plans in the graduate plan sheet not be an obvious progression for you having done the base and 5k-10k plan? I must ahve a look at that myself actually.

    Good point, had forgotten about those alright. Will see about mapping out some dates re the 14 week structure.
    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    How comfortably did you run last year, did you race flat out or did you run within yourself, what are you interested in accomplishing this year. Faster Time or do you just want to run the distance.

    Nutshell version. Very happy with the first 10-11 miles, running with the 4:10 pacers. No issues. Decided to move ahead of them somewhere shortly after - felt like that was the only mistake I made last year. Not to say it was all sunshine and lollipops once I copped on after the mistake, but didn't feel like there were hairy moments. Would like get close to 4 hours, maybe that's overly optimistic and 4:07 would do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭overthebridge


    What amended version of P&D do you have?

    I amended/butchered the 18 week P&D to suit my work/life pattern. I can send it onto you if you wish ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Good point, had forgotten about those alright. Will see about mapping out some dates re the 14 week structure.



    Nutshell version. Very happy with the first 10-11 miles, running with the 4:10 pacers. No issues. Decided to move ahead of them somewhere shortly after - felt like that was the only mistake I made last year. Not to say it was all sunshine and lollipops once I copped on after the mistake, but didn't feel like there were hairy moments. Would like get close to 4 hours, maybe that's overly optimistic and 4:07 would do.

    Your recent 10k time suggests about 4.15 in McMillan, but these things can change as fitness improves, Hal Hig plan you did is only really designed to complete the distance, maybe as HBS suggested have a look at boards graduate plan. I think you would Benifit by doing a couple of progression long runs over next few weeks to get a feel for running faster as you tire as it takes a bit of concentration to hold faster pace, if you can build to 2/3 miles at slightly faster than current MP pace at end of LR over next few weeks will give you a better feel for the plan you want to take on. And if you could build in a session mid week even better,
    Running 5 or six mins at LT x 3 with 3/4 mins recovery between each effort.
    Run progression run in two weeks and then two weeks latter and run in between LR, at easy pace. Run 5k park run as hard as you can in 5 weeks, and put result into Mc Milan calculator to get an idea of where you are and training paces. But if you want to run faster you need a plan which has a good mix. I think based on FD run you where maybe targeting slightly faster than you where able for, but again only you know how hard you worked during race, so maybe it was easy and you felt justified targeting faster Marathon, usually for novice runners as distance goes out so does inaccurateary of calculator. Have a look a MCMillan Calculator and put in current times and you should get an idea.

    Had a quick look at your log and you already do LT runs so why not extend length of time at LT to
    3 x 8 mins week 1 and build to 25 min full LT run, LT according to McMillan off your current 10k is
    8.45 to 8.54 but I see you are running a good bit faster in some reps, by 15 sec a mile, might be worth reviewing paces and stick to correct pace.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,174 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    ...maybe as HBS suggested have a look at boards graduate plan. I think you would Benifit by doing a couple of progression long runs over next few weeks to get a feel for running faster as you tire as it takes a bit of concentration to hold faster pace, if you can build to 2/3 miles at slightly faster than current MP pace at end of LR over next few weeks will give you a better feel for the plan you want to take on. And if you could build in a session mid week even better,
    Running 5 or six mins at LT x 3 with 3/4 mins recovery between each effort.
    Run progression run in two weeks and then two weeks latter and run in between LR, at easy pace. Run 5k park run as hard as you can in 5 weeks, and put result into Mc Milan calculator to get an idea of where you are and training paces. But if you want to run faster you need a plan which has a good mix. I think based on FD run you where maybe targeting slightly faster than you where able for, but again only you know how hard you worked during race, so maybe it was easy and you felt justified targeting faster Marathon, usually for novice runners as distance goes out so does inaccurateary of calculator. Have a look a MCMillan Calculator and put in current times and you should get an idea.

    The graduates plan has beginner and intermediate versions. Is beginner a little ahead of novices, but not quite immediate standard? Both look manageable. It's some of the more complicated spreadsheets in the thread is where I get lost easily. I'm not sure what to do at the moment, keep running 5 days a week or drop to 4. Re progression runs, as well as your suggestion about MP in the final 2-3 miles, should I increase them by length - say, if this is a Sunday routine, for example? Perhaps I need to write up a spreadsheet for the next 4-5 weeks to figure things out.

    This website is still down, unfortunately. http://www.runningprs.com/calc2/index.php
    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Had a quick look at your log and you already do LT runs so why not extend length of time at LT to
    3 x 8 mins week 1 and build to 25 min full LT run, LT according to McMillan off your current 10k is
    8.45 to 8.54 but I see you are running a good bit faster in some reps, by 15 sec a mile, might be worth reviewing paces and stick to correct pace.

    What does LT refer to?

    Last point - yes, bit of an issue at times... :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    This website is still down, unfortunately. http:// + www. +runningprs. + com/calc2/ + index + php

    ^^^^^^

    I think that domain has moved

    http + :// + www. + runfastcoach . com/ calc2/ index. + php


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭El Caballo




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    What kind of sessions do people feel have brought them on over the first few marathons? While I think increased base mileage is probably the most important factor in marathon improvement, tough sessions (done right!) also toughen you up a lot mentally, I think (still plenty of work to do there in my case).

    Meno plan has some very good progression runs that are a bit of an eye opener after the likes of a basic just-finish type marathon schedule that many of us began with. P&D introduces some tough LT stuff. While all these are important, I've found longish 30-40 mins @ LT the toughest to get through, and the most confidence-inducing when successful. Any thoughts?


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    For me it was lots of miles @ MP, during the long run and also just on their own. Both of the plans I followed had plenty of this. Long run with MP at the end is very good also.

    Meno has 14 Miles @ MP at the end of his plan, you know if you can get through that you are pretty well set for the race.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Progression runs are my favourite and I always feel I come on great in the weeks after them. McMillan has a few as well as what he calls fast finish long runs where you run most of the run easy and do the last 2 miles as close to 10k pace as you can. P+D recommends a range of paces for long runs and your supposed to move towards the faster end of this range over the course of the run - the runs where I managed this were great. I've enjoyed the long runs with "stuff" in the Meno plan too. There's always a couple of a sessions towards the end of any plan that look way too hard when you start the plan and banging out any of these is great for the confidence. And overall view would be the more aerobic easy miles I did the more I progressed, regardless of individual sessions. Also doing P+D greatly improved my ability to recover from hard sessions and long runs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭chickey2


    adrian522 wrote: »
    For me it was lots of miles @ MP, during the long run and also just on their own. Both of the plans I followed had plenty of this. Long run with MP at the end is very good also.

    Meno has 14 Miles @ MP at the end of his plan, you know if you can get through that you are pretty well set for the race.

    Was just about to post the same! Knowing I could do 14 miles at MP gave me the confidence to know I could do 26.2. Knowing my MP so well also prevented me from going out too fast at the beginning. My first marathon had a a huge positive split, but my second (using the meno plan) was almost equal splits (1:58/2:00).

    I've no plans for any marathons this year but this thread is already tempting me!


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Yeah, I'd even splits from following the meno plan too. 1:43:05/1:43:51


  • Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭JohnDozer


    adrian522 wrote: »
    For me it was lots of miles @ MP, during the long run and also just on their own. Both of the plans I followed had plenty of this. Long run with MP at the end is very good also.
    e day
    Meno has 14 Miles @ MP at the end of his plan, you know if you can get through that you are pretty well set for the race.

    I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    The graduates plan has beginner and intermediate versions. Is beginner a little ahead of novices, but not quite immediate standard? Both look manageable. It's some of the more complicated spreadsheets in the thread is where I get lost easily. I'm not sure what to


    I'd say beginner is same as Novice , so probably intermediate plan would suit, if you do about 9 miles on you LR, run first 3 easy, second 3 about 30 sec slower than MP and last 3 at MP, you wouldn't need to be running any more than 10 miles on LR before training begins for DCM. If you are running 5 days not really time to be cutting down just keep up 5 days. I think these type of runs bring you along and are good introduction to running MP sessions.
    This website is still down, unfortunately. http://www.runningprs.com/calc2/index.php



    What does LT refer to?


    LT about 20 sec mile slower than 5k race pace, or pace you could race at for about an hour. So about 8.45-8.50 a mile. LT pace will continue to decrease as your race times improve.
    Last point - yes, bit of an issue at times... :o

    I think if you build from where you are now and keep reassessing every 5 weeks or so, and after each race you do over cycle, you may find your time target comes to nearer where you want, but no point in picking a target time yet just work from where you are.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    JohnDozer wrote: »
    I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?

    It does but it is important to run to actual MP effort not aspirational MP. In other words run to your current ability not your target pace for 3-4 months time.

    Don't feel de-motvated if MP seems harder than you were expecting at the start. Just trust in the plan etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    I really enjoyed MP sessions on Meno plan, gave real confidence of being able to hit MP effort, also liked progression runs and running 20 sec faster and slower than MP as it prepares you for some faster running on the day, when mile markers don't line up with Garmin and it doesn't frighten you to see 10 or 15 sec
    Faster than planned popping up on watch, defiantly makes you mentally prepared.

    But I have been doing good bit of LT running lately and it makes MP miles feel easy, as long as you stick to correct effort, definitely getting better feel for effort rather than exact pace on watch and it can change from run to run depending on terrain and weather and general tiredness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭JohnDozer


    adrian522 wrote: »
    It does but it is important to run to actual MP effort not aspirational MP. In other word run to your current ability not your target pace for 3-4 months time.

    Don't feel de-motvated if MP seems harder than you were expecting at the start. Just trust in the plan etc.

    That's actually something I'm thinking about quite a bit at present, in terms of what to do. Plugging race results from the last few months into various calculators (mainly McMillan and VDOT) have me in the vicinity of 3:15/3:20. The only thing is, past experiences have me in a very cautious mindset, to the extent that I would take your hand off for 3:30, and probably even settle for a 3:40 as a next step on the journey. What I really want and haven't managed it yet, is to run from the start line to the finish line without stopping. I do recall saying that somewhere before, but it's still important. Anyway, back on track, what this in effect means is that my MP would be in or around what I am currently doing some of my shorter easy runs in. I still haven't worked out how to approach this particular scenario. On one level I should just train at the paces generated by the predictor, but I've been bitten a few times.

    I'm actually feeling an awful sense of deja vu even writing those words.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,842 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    JohnDozer wrote: »
    That's actually something I'm thinking about quite a bit at present, in terms of what to do. Plugging race results from the last few months into various calculators (mainly McMillan and VDOT) have me in the vicinity of 3:15/3:20. The only thing is, past experiences have me in a very cautious mindset, to the extent that I would take your hand off for 3:30, and probably even settle for a 3:40 as a next step on the journey. What I really want and haven't managed it yet, is to run from the start line to the finish line without stopping. I do recall saying that somewhere before, but it's still important. Anyway, back on track, what this in effect means is that my MP would be in or around what I am currently doing some of my shorter easy runs in. I still haven't worked out how to approach my own particular scenario. On one level I should just train at the paces generated by the predictor, but I've been bitten a few times.

    I'm actually feeling an awful sense of deja vu even writing those words.

    McMillan is always a bit optimistic.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭cullenswood


    I amended/butchered the 18 week P&D to suit my work/life pattern. I can send it onto you if you wish ?

    That'd be great alright. Thanks. Always interested in other / amended plans. I'll PM you my email.


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