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Woman.

  • 28-09-2010 8:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭


    This is not the first time I've read such passages on the role of women in
    the history of humanity, it is the second. Only in one other book, a book by
    Friedrich Engels, have I come across such passages that describe history
    the way the following does & I wonder how people react to it. I wrote
    about 4 pages of a book out so it may seem a bit long but trust me I
    wouldn't have spent the time unless it was worth it, make some tea and
    give it a read ;) The passage comes from The Story of Civilization, part 1
    - Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant:

    "Since it was the mother who fulfilled most of the parental
    functions, the family was at first (so far as we can pierce the
    mists of history) organized on the assumption that the position of the
    man in the family was superficial and incidental, while that of the
    woman was fundamental and supreme. In some existing tribes, and
    probably in the earliest human groups the physiological role of the
    male in reproduction appears to have escaped notice quite as
    completely as among animals, who rut and mate and breed with happy
    unconsciousness of cause and effect. The Trobriand Islanders attribute
    pregnancy not to any commerce of the sexes, but to the entrance of a
    baloma, or ghost, into the woman. Usually the ghost enters while the
    woman is bathing; "a fish has bitten me," the girl reports. "When,"
    says Malinowski, "I asked who was the father of an illegitimate child,
    there was only one answer- that there was no father, since the girl
    was unmarried. If, then, I asked, in quite plain terms, who was the
    physiological father, the question was not understood.... The answer
    would be: 'It is a baloma who gave her this child.'" These islanders
    had a strange belief that the baloma would more readily enter a girl
    given to loose relations with men; nevertheless, in choosing
    precautions against pregnancy, the girls preferred to avoid bathing at
    high tide rather than to forego relations with men. It is a
    delightful story, which must have proved a great convenience in the
    embarrassing aftermath of generosity; it would be still more
    delightful if it had been invented for anthropologists as well as
    for husbands.
    In Melanesia intercourse was recognized as the cause of pregnancy,
    but unmarried girls insisted on blaming some article in their
    diet. Even where the function of the male was understood,
    sex relationships were so irregular that it was never a simple
    matter to determine the father. Consequently the quite primitive
    mother seldom bothered to inquire into the paternity of her child;
    it belonged to her, and she belonged not to a husband but to her
    father- or her brother- and the clan; it was with these that she
    remained, and these were the only male relatives whom her child
    would know. The bonds of affection between brother and
    sister were usually stronger than between husband and wife. The
    husband, in many cases, remained in the family and clan of his mother,
    and saw his wife only as a clandestine visitor. Even in classical
    civilization the brother was dearer than the husband: it was her
    brother, not her husband, that the wife of Intaphernes saved from
    the wrath of Darius; it was for her brother, not for her husband, that
    Antigone sacrificed herself. "The notion that a man's wife
    is the nearest person in the world to him is a relatively modern
    notion, and one which is restricted to a comparatively small part of
    the human race."
    So slight is the relation between father and children in primitive
    society that in a great number of tribes the sexes live apart. In
    Australia and British New Guinea, in Africa and Micronesia, in Assam
    and Burma, among the Aleuts, Eskimos and Samoyeds, and here and there
    over the earth, tribes may still be found in which there is no visible
    family life; the men live apart from the women, and visit them only
    now and then; even the meals are taken separately. In northern Papua
    it is not considered right for a man to be seen associating socially
    with a woman, even if she is the mother of his children. In Tahiti
    "family life is quite unknown." Out of this segregation of the sexes
    come those secret fraternities- usually of males- which appear
    everywhere among primitive races, and serve most often as a refuge
    against women. They resemble our modern fraternities in
    another point- their hierarchical organization.
    The simplest form of the family, then, was the woman and her
    children, living with her mother or her brother in the clan; such an
    arrangement was a natural outgrowth of the animal family of the mother
    and her litter, and of the biological ignorance of primitive man. An
    alternative early form was "matrilocal marriage": the husband left his
    clan and went to live with the clan and family of his wife, laboring
    for her or with her in the service of her parents. Descent, in such
    cases, was traced through the female line, and inheritance was through
    the mother; sometimes even the kingship passed down through her rather
    than through the male. This "mother-right" was not a
    "matriarchate"- it did not imply the rule of women over men.
    Even when property was transmitted through the woman she had little
    power over it; she was used as a means of tracing relationships which,
    through primitive laxity or freedom, were otherwise obscure.
    It is true that in any system of society the woman exercises a certain
    authority, rising naturally out of her importance in the home, out
    of her function as the dispenser of food, and out of the need that the
    male has of her, and her power to refuse him. It is also true that
    there have been, occasionally, women rulers among some South African
    tribes; that in the Pelew Islands the chief did nothing of consequence
    without the advice of a council of elder women; that among the
    Iroquois the squaws had an equal right, with the men, of speaking
    and voting in the tribal council; and that among the Seneca
    Indians women held great power, even to the selection of the chief.
    But these are rare and exceptional cases. All in all the position of
    woman in early societies was one of subjection verging upon slavery.
    Her periodic disability, her unfamiliarity with weapons, the
    biological absorption of her strength in carrying, nursing and rearing
    children, handicapped her in the war of the sexes, and doomed her to a
    subordinate status in all but the very lowest and the very highest
    societies. Nor was her position necessarily to rise with the
    development of civilization; it was destined to be lower in
    Periclean Greece than among the North American Indians; it was to rise
    and fall with her strategic importance rather than with the culture
    and morals of men.
    In the hunting stage she did almost all the work except the actual
    capture of the game. In return for exposing himself to the hardships and
    risks of the chase, the male rested magnificently for the
    greater part of the year. The woman bore her children abundantly,
    reared them, kept the hut or home in repair, gathered food in woods
    and fields, cooked, cleaned, and made the clothing and the
    boots. Because the men, when the tribe moved, had to be
    ready at any moment to fight off attack, they carried nothing but
    their weapons; the women carried all the rest. Bushwomen were used
    as servants and beasts of burden; if they proved too weak to keep up
    with the march, they were abandoned. When the natives of the
    Lower Murray saw pack oxen they thought that these were the wives of
    the whites. The differences in strength which now divide the
    sexes hardly existed in those days, and are now environmental rather
    than innate: woman, apart from her biological disabilities, was almost
    the equal of man in stature, endurance, resourcefulness and courage;
    she was not yet an ornament, a thing of beauty, or a sexual toy; she
    was a robust animal, able to perform arduous work for long hours, and,
    if necessary, to fight to the death for her children or her clan.
    "Women," said a chieftain of the Chippewas, "are created for work. One
    of them can draw or carry as much as two men. They also pitch our
    tents, make our clothes, mend them, and keep us warm at night.... We
    absolutely cannot get along without them on a journey. They do
    everything and cost only a little; for since they must be forever
    cooking, they can be satisfied in lean times by licking their
    fingers."
    Most economic advances, in early society, were made by the woman
    rather than the man. While for centuries he clung to his ancient
    ways of hunting and herding, she developed agriculture near the
    camp, and those busy arts of the home which were to become the most
    important industries of later days. From the "wool-bearing tree," as
    the Greeks called the cotton plant, the primitive woman rolled
    thread and made cotton cloth. It was she, apparently, who
    developed sewing, weaving, basketry, pottery, woodworking, and
    building; and in many cases it was she who carried on primitive
    trade. It was she who developed the home, slowly adding man
    to the list of her domesticated animals, and training him in those
    social dispositions and amenities which are the psychological basis
    and cement of civilization.
    But as agriculture became more complex and brought larger rewards,
    the stronger sex took more and more of it into its own
    hands. The growth of cattle-breeding gave the man a new
    source of wealth, stability and power; even agriculture, which must
    have seemed so prosaic to the mighty Nimrods of antiquity, was at last
    accepted by the wandering male, and the economic leadership which
    tillage had for a time given to women was wrested from them by the
    men. The application to agriculture of those very animals that woman
    had first domesticated led to her replacement by the male in the
    control of the fields; the advance from the hoe to the plough put a
    premium upon physical strength, and enabled the man to assert his
    supremacy. The growth of transmissible property in cattle and in the
    products of the soil led to the sexual subordination of woman, for the
    male now demanded from her that fidelity which he thought would enable
    him to pass on his accumulations to children presumably his own.
    Gradually the man had his way: fatherhood became recognized, and
    property began to descend through the male; mother-right yielded to
    father-right; and the patriarchal family, with the oldest male at
    its head, became the economic, legal, political and moral unit of
    society. The gods, who had been mostly feminine, became great
    bearded patriarchs, with such harems as ambitious men dreamed of in
    their solitude.
    This passage to the patriarchal- father-ruled- family was fatal to
    the position of woman. In all essential aspects she and her children
    became the property first of her father or oldest brother, then of her
    husband. She was bought in marriage precisely as a slave was bought in
    the market. She was bequeathed as property when her husband died;
    and in some places (New Guinea, the New Hebrides, the Solomon Islands,
    Fiji, India, etc.) she was strangled and buried with her dead husband,
    or was expected to commit suicide, in order to attend upon him in
    the other world. `The father had now the right to treat,
    give, sell or lend his wives and daughters very much as he pleased,
    subject only to the social condemnation of other fathers exercising
    the same rights. While the male reserved the privilege of extending
    his sexual favors beyond his home, the woman- under patriarchal
    institutions- was vowed to complete chastity before marriage, and
    complete fidelity after it. The double standard was born.

    The general subjection of woman which had existed in the hunting
    stage, and had persisted, in diminished form, through the period of
    mother-right, became now more pronounced and merciless than before. In
    ancient Russia, on the marriage of a daughter, the father struck her
    gently with a whip, and then presented the whip to the
    bridegroom, as a sign that her beatings were now to come
    from a rejuvenated hand. Even the American Indians, among whom
    mother-right survived indefinitely, treated their women harshly,
    consigned to them all drudgery, and often called them dogs.
    Everywhere the life of a woman was considered cheaper than that of a
    man; and when girls were born there was none of the rejoicing that
    marked the coming of a male. Mothers sometimes destroyed their female
    children to keep them from misery. In Fiji wives might be sold at
    pleasure, and the usual price was a musket. `010347 Among some
    tribes man and wife did not sleep together, lest the breath of the
    woman should enfeeble the man; in Fiji it was not thought proper for a
    man to sleep regularly at home; in New Caledonia the wife slept in a
    shed, while the man slept in the house. In Fiji dogs were allowed in
    some of the temples, but women were excluded from all; such
    exclusion of women from religious services survives in Islam to this
    day. Doubtless woman enjoyed at all times the mastery that comes of
    long-continued speech; the men might be rebuffed, harangued, even- now
    and then- beaten. But all in all the man was lord, the woman
    was servant. The Kaffir bought women like slaves, as a form of
    life-income insurance; when he had a sufficient number of wives he
    could rest for the remainder of his days; they would do all the work
    for him. Some tribes of ancient India reckoned the women of a family
    as part of the property inheritance, along with the domestic
    animals; nor did the last commandment of Moses distinguish
    very clearly in this matter. Throughout negro Africa women hardly
    differed from slaves, except that they were expected to provide sexual
    as well as economic satisfaction. Marriage began as a form of the
    law of property, as a part of the institution of slavery. "

    From the Engels book Origin of the Family, Private Property & the State:

    "Thus when monogamous marriage first makes its appearance in history,
    it is not as the reconciliation of man and woman, still less as the highest
    form of such a reconciliation. Quite the contrary. Monogamous marriage
    comes on the scene as the subjugation of the one sex by the other; it
    announces a struggle between the sexes unknown throughout the whole
    previous prehistoric period."

    There is a lot more from this book that is of interest but I've quoted
    enough, my question is do people know about all of this? Have these idea's
    been discredited? They certainly don't appear to be well known from what
    I've seen but I'll readily admit that is probably due to my own ignorance.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    Well known to feminists.

    Apropos of nothing, went to see Made In Dagenham today; the attitude of men to women was shown well. These cro-magnons exist still. (And that really insults the cro-magnons) Anyway, in it, the Union Rep quotes Marx to say that a society is judged by the way the women are treated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Well known to feminists.

    Apropos of nothing, went to see Made In Dagenham today; the attitude of men to women was shown well. These cro-magnons exist still. (And that really insults the cro-magnons) Anyway, in it, the Union Rep quotes Marx to say that a society is judged by the way the women are treated.

    Judging by what I've read it seems women likely ruled during cro-magnon
    times :D

    That film looks brilliant! I hadn't heard about it so thanks for giving me
    a new movie to look forward to! :cool:

    The thing about what I've quoted is that it sounds very appealing and
    obviously very intruiging. I mean this should be known in society by
    everyone and honestly I'd only read about it the first time a year ago
    reading Engels! From then to when I picked up Durant's book I haven't
    come across such descriptions apart from the very rare time I checked on
    the internet to see if Engel's had been debunked.

    What evidence is there that this was the case in anient times apart from
    evidence in the 1800's and 1900's of some matriarchal tribes? The
    descriptions of the transition from matriarchy to patriarchy must be
    purely imaginary, they have linked the defeat of women to the rise in
    property & while I can see that following from a marxian interpretation of
    society & history it's just not testable or inferrable (as far as I can see).
    Reading Engel's he based his work off Lewis Morgan's anthropological work
    in the mid-1800's in North America and some other sources but I'd
    just like to know how iron-clad the evidence is for the claims in these
    books. If you have more modern and scientific sources or book
    recommendations I'd really appreciate it, I'm happy knowing it's just a
    marxist interpretation of history but I'd prefer to see the unbiased
    material for this information, it is pretty shocking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Well known to feminists.

    Apropos of nothing, went to see Made In Dagenham today; the attitude of men to women was shown well. These cro-magnons exist still. (And that really insults the cro-magnons) Anyway, in it, the Union Rep quotes Marx to say that a society is judged by the way the women are treated.
    It's been said that feminism is not just about better treatment for women but also men. Something that I can fully agree with. Whatever about the younger posters on the forum, I can tell you my father and grandfathers generation had a very stern life. Giving a young lad a thrashing for accidentally breaking a widow playing football or something was the norm back in the late 60's and early 70's. That generation of men didn't know any better, they learned it from the previous generation. They thought it was the father's right and role and if he didn't do so he was too soft and not a proper father. Then sure was the attitude, " it would toughen him up and make a man out of him " :rolleyes: Cannot say it about them all of course, but unfortunately it could be said of too many of them. And from growing up in that era I can say that feminism took the "wait until your father comes home" ignorance attitude and indeed violence out of the home....... And then on top of it their was the hammerings from the Chrisitan brothers at school. The good old days indeed :o

    Feminism has probably been one of the very few ism's that can truly be said to have improved society for greater good without question. Capitalism, Communism, imperialism etc have all to one degree or other brought incredible injustice and bloodshed in the name of 'liberation'.

    I would request that the mod keep a good eye on this worthwhile thread. Without doubt we will have the usual clowns coming on from the AH forum with their 'smart' comments. Good thread OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Most economic advances, in early society, were made by the woman
    rather than the man. While for centuries he clung to his ancient
    ways of hunting and herding, she developed agriculture near the
    camp, and those busy arts of the home which were to become the most
    important industries of later days. From the "wool-bearing tree," as
    the Greeks called the cotton plant, the primitive woman rolled
    thread and made cotton cloth. It was she, apparently, who
    developed sewing, weaving, basketry, pottery, woodworking, and
    building; and in many cases it was she who carried on primitive
    trade. It was she who developed the home, slowly adding man
    to the list of her domesticated animals, and training him in those
    social dispositions and amenities which are the psychological basis
    and cement of civilization.
    Is there any evidence at all for any of this? Moreover, one paragraph tucked away in there is:
    But these are rare and exceptional cases. All in all the position of
    woman in early societies was one of subjection verging upon slavery.
    Her periodic disability, her unfamiliarity with weapons, the
    biological absorption of her strength in carrying, nursing and rearing
    children, handicapped her in the war of the sexes, and doomed her to a
    subordinate status in all but the very lowest and the very highest
    societies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Is there any evidence at all for any of this? Moreover, one paragraph tucked away in there is:
    What evidence is there that this was the case in anient times apart from
    evidence in the 1800's and 1900's of some matriarchal tribes? The
    descriptions of the transition from matriarchy to patriarchy must be
    purely imaginary, they have linked the defeat of women to the rise in
    property & while I can see that following from a marxian interpretation of
    society & history it's just not testable or inferrable (as far as I can see).
    Reading Engel's he based his work off Lewis Morgan's anthropological work
    in the mid-1800's in North America and some other sources but
    I'd
    just like to know how iron-clad the evidence is for the claims in these
    books.
    If you have more modern and scientific sources or book
    recommendations I'd really appreciate it, I'm happy knowing it's just a
    marxist interpretation of history but I'd prefer to see the unbiased
    material for this information, it is pretty shocking.

    That's why I started this thread, it seems to me that these conclusions
    are based off of anthropological work on various tribes spread throughout
    the world who apparently follow the same customs they did throughout
    history. My feeling is that they are extrapolating from modern tribes
    many of whom are found to follow a matriarchical mode of life.


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