How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

27-07-2018 11:13am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

My car costs me €7800 per annum plus incidentals (wear and tear).
Incidentals currently at €925 for suspension work and will need a clutch either this year or next - another €1100

That's €8700 to €10000 per annum for 30,000km.

My car is over 5 years old so not depreciating too heavily (hopefully)
I have no toll costs - easily another €1000 to most near Dublin
Cars are not cheap to run

Do you intend on switching to public transport for 30k/annum? Hardly.

So you’ll still have motoring costs. Is the saving you will make adequate to compensate for the inconvenience of PT and the experience overall? Probably not, in all honesty.

_Kaiser_ · 27-07-2018 11:19am

- People use a car because in many cases, public transport is too unreliable, infrequent or inconvenient (even inside Dublin, never mind outside it) to depend on. It's also not cheap.

- Many have also been priced further and further out of the city because of the rent/property mess and so are making longer journeys. A car is also pretty much essential outside Dublin. Even if P&R was available at the main intersections to the M50 (as I've talked about before), unless it was very cost-effective and bringing people quickly the rest of the way, it'd be pointless.

- (New) car sales in Ireland are an "industry", which is why we got saddled with the ridiculous 1x1/1x2 reg-plate system to drive sales. The Government also collect a fortune in tax from motoring expenses (someone above mentioned hiking fuel costs, but fuel is ALREADY mostly tax). It's not in Government interest to push alternatives TOO heavily as people will balk at the idea of higher taxation elsewhere to make up the shortfalls.

- Not everyone works 9-5 or goes to one destination only as part of their commute (eg: people picking up/dropping off kids on the way). A car is the only practical way to do this.. no, BusConnects won't change that! All this talk of mid-trip changes and A-B via C journeys will not win people over

- The City Centre businesses will complain that they'll lose trade, and while I personally can't see any reason to bother trekking into the city to shop in an age of huge shopping centres in the suburbs and online delivery, they probably have a point.

- And finally, many people LIKE cars (or at least the idea/projection of wealth and status they can project.. bit like our obsession with property really!). Why else are there so many BMW's, Audi's and Mercedes on the roads? A bus doesn't give that same feeling!

Bray Head · 27-07-2018 11:21am

JayZeus wrote: »

I’m already ‘in’ for thousands a year to have the freedom to go anywhere I want, any time i want. More for parking, petrol and whatever isn’t going to make me change my behaviour.

Public transport should be made more appealing to car owners, to get them to use their car less. This is the relevant margin.

There are much fewer people who are at the boundary between owning and not owning a car, contingent on public transport quality.

People will only think about getting rid of their cars when autonomous vehicles on subscription are available. I think there are a lot of car owners like me who basically only do urban driving at evenings and weekends. Autonomous vehicles will be very useful, and to be honest, will take a lot of market share away from bus services.

magicbastarder · 27-07-2018 11:23am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

That's €8700 to €10000 per annum for 30,000km.

i know we're going OT, but that's double the distance the AA used to get to their figures.

magicbastarder · 27-07-2018 11:30am

JayZeus wrote: »

It’s gas the way people talk about the costs of car ownership vs public transport, as if even a notable minority of car owners are going to abandon their cars in favour of PT. Not happening.

i'm obviously the exception. living near DCU, office is in leopardstown, so i'm well served by PT.
for four years, i left the car in the driveway, and commuted via PT (till last year - am now cycling it).
public transport was typically an hour door to door (in the morning - bit slower in the evening), and far cheaper than driving. plus, much less stressful. driving would not have saved me much time.

actual financial cost of PT was an annual luas and bus ticket, which was about €700 (with the taxsaver option)
if i was to drive to work, i could have gone through the city, or around the M50. the M50 would have been about a fiver a day in petrol alone, not counting tolls (and wear and tear)

Wildly Boaring · 27-07-2018 11:41am

JayZeus wrote: »

Do you intend on switching to public transport for 30k/annum? Hardly.

So you’ll still have motoring costs. Is the saving you will make adequate to compensate for the inconvenience of PT and the experience overall? Probably not, in all honesty.

Oh I'm the last fella in the country that'll use public transport.

That 30k km was a spreadsheet I did previously. I'll be nearer 80k km this year.
In last 7 days been in cork Kilkenny carlow and Clare.
Was only showing how much a car costs.

But when I lived and worked in Dublin I happily parked the car and used train or bike.
When in Meath working in Dublin I would have loved park and ride.

Rural Ireland will never be achievable by public transport

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 2:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

colour me sceptical about claims being made for electric cars; many of the same benefits being touted for them (in terms of car sharing) is already available via schemes like go car, but if go car have even reached 1% of journeys made in dublin, i'll eat my catalytic converter (at least my corpse will be valuable)

Go Car is going to be a slow burner I reckon, I would have thought seriously before shelling out 5 figures on a car if I'd had a car across the street at my disposal at the time. They've lately offered to take cars as trade ins against credit. But it would take a long time to use up that credit using the value of the car. Plus, I'd be among the early adopters, they're not mainstream yet.

Isambard · 27-07-2018 2:34pm

most of the costs of running a car are fixed, it's only fuel and servicing etc that are saveable by partially using public transport. Very few people will be able to completely ditch their car. I don't think the economic case stacks up for switching, even if the goalposts are moved a lot.

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 2:49pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- Not everyone works 9-5 or goes to one destination only as part of their commute (eg: people picking up/dropping off kids on the way). A car is the only practical way to do this.. no, BusConnects won't change that! All this talk of mid-trip changes and A-B via C journeys will not win people over

Society need to re-think those practicalities for the benefit of all. It's not reasonable to spread one's daily life over this kind of area. Commuting aside.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- The City Centre businesses will complain that they'll lose trade, and while I personally can't see any reason to bother trekking into the city to shop in an age of huge shopping centres in the suburbs and online delivery, they probably have a point.

The nature of retail is changing anyway. It's shifting online.

Geuze · 27-07-2018 3:18pm

JayZeus wrote: »

It’s gas the way people talk about the costs of car ownership vs public transport, as if even a notable minority of car owners are going to abandon their cars in favour of PT. Not happening. If I can afford a car, there’s no way I’m using public transport. Not in Dublin. LUAS green line isn’t even as good a service/experience as it was before extension. I’ll spend 3-4 times as much on a journey using my car before I’d inconvenience myself by opting for a bus or an overcrowded LUAS. Comfortable seat, air-con as I want it, radio, ability to chop and change plans and basically suit myself. Most of us with cars want the same, unless PT is much, much more convenient. Which it isn’t.

I’m already ‘in’ for thousands a year to have the freedom to go anywhere I want, any time i want. More for parking, petrol and whatever isn’t going to make me change my behaviour.

If PT was substantially improved and a congestion charge introduced, would that change your mind?

For example:

Westlink toll abolished
Fee to drive inside M50
Another fee to cross canals into city centre

DART every 10 mins
DART on Maynooth and Kildare lines
DART underground from Heuston to SSG and onto Docklands
Several more tram lines
BusConnects plan implemented

27-07-2018 5:26pm

Geuze wrote: »

If PT was substantially improved and a congestion charge introduced, would that change your mind?

For example:

Westlink toll abolished
Fee to drive inside M50
Another fee to cross canals into city centre

DART every 10 mins
DART on Maynooth and Kildare lines
DART underground from Heuston to SSG and onto Docklands
Several more tram lines
BusConnects plan implemented

Try to penalise motorists and use the money you screw out of them to fund more restrictive/punitive measures against them and for PT projects, all you’ll do is end up mobilising them as a political weapon.

If there were candidates running on a specifically pro-motorist manifesto, they’d already win my vote each and every election.

There would be a lot less congestion in Dublin city if the buslanes were turned into normal traffic lanes again. Either way, I’d rather eat ramen noodles and wear Penneys clothing so I could drive my own car than have to share public transport.

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 5:30pm

What's the congestion charge revenue in London used for out of interest?

magicbastarder · 27-07-2018 5:32pm

JayZeus wrote: »

There would be a lot less congestion in Dublin city if the buslanes were turned into normal traffic lanes again.

uuuhhhh....?

Stephen15 · 27-07-2018 5:53pm

JayZeus wrote: »

It’s gas the way people talk about the costs of car ownership vs public transport, as if even a notable minority of car owners are going to abandon their cars in favour of PT. Not happening. If I can afford a car, there’s no way I’m using public transport. Not in Dublin. LUAS green line isn’t even as good a service/experience as it was before extension. I’ll spend 3-4 times as much on a journey using my car before I’d inconvenience myself by opting for a bus or an overcrowded LUAS. Comfortable seat, air-con as I want it, radio, ability to chop and change plans and basically suit myself. Most of us with cars want the same, unless PT is much, much more convenient. Which it isn’t.

I’m already ‘in’ for thousands a year to have the freedom to go anywhere I want, any time i want. More for parking, petrol and whatever isn’t going to make me change my behaviour.

I don't know about you but if it's quicker and more convient to drive to a place I will drive and if it's quicker and more convient to use public transport I will use public transport which it is in many cases when going into the city centre. When you're driving you also actually have to pay attention to the road and actually physically drive and you can listen to the radio with earphones and actually use your phone on the bus with free WiFi can't while driving. You can also go to the pub after work can't if you have the car with you.

I own a car myself and I will use it when convienent when going somewhere not served by pt, When the car journey is quicker etc. but if I know traffic and parking will be a pain and there's a bus, a DART or a Luas going I will use it that seems like the most logical choice to me.

Skatedude · 27-07-2018 6:17pm

Step one: Have public transport available for all the people to get to work, not just those who don't work full shift hours. we haven't even got that yet.

You can add all the buses and trains you want, but no use if you still need your car because public transport dose not run at the times you need to get to work.

monument · 28-07-2018 1:53pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Try to penalise motorists and use the money you screw out of them to fund more restrictive/punitive measures against them and for PT projects, all you’ll do is end up mobilising them as a political weapon.

If there were candidates running on a specifically pro-motorist manifesto, they’d already win my vote each and every election.

The fact is, taxes for motoring do not cover all the direct and indirect cost of motoring. Health from inactivity, health from air pollution, spending and costs not under normal motoring sources (ie from councils not from motor tax, rural department, education, hospitals, etc).

Fringe motorists mobilising "as a political weapon" would result in a backlash from others and get more people giving decent support for sustainable and active transport.

JayZeus wrote: »

There would be a lot less congestion in Dublin city if the buslanes were turned into normal traffic lanes again. Either way, I’d rather eat ramen noodles and wear Penneys clothing so I could drive my own car than have to share public transport.

That's so off-the-wall, I don't honestly know if you're taking the piss or not. In case you're not, you're wrong. You have a basic problem with maths and what modes can carry enough people.

The number of cars entering Dublin City Centre is down 27,812 since 1997 while the number of commuters overall across all modes combined has increased from 180,000 in 1997 to nearly 211,500 commuters. There's also more people living within the canals and most of these households don't even own cars and even those who do, they don't always drive them.

Here's the principal:

Here's it in action along the quays:

There's now a load of streets at peak times where bicycles are outnumbering or close to outnumbering cars -- this is before a single segregated cycle route in put in place into the city from a single suburb or even inner suburb.

Skatedude wrote: »

Step one: Have public transport available for all the people to get to work, not just those who don't work full shift hours. we haven't even got that yet.

You can add all the buses and trains you want, but no use if you still need your car because public transport dose not run at the times you need to get to work.

Do you know how much of the population does shift work when public transport doesn't run?

I'll give you a clue: It's small enough to worry about everybody else first.

monument · 28-07-2018 2:13pm

And re switching from car to public transport or cycling or walking:

People are already doing this -- a huge amount of people who get the bus or cycle have a car left in the driveway at home.

Hilly Bill · 28-07-2018 10:09pm

monument wrote: »

And re switching from car to public transport or cycling or walking:

People are already doing this -- a huge amount of people who get the bus or cycle have a car left in the driveway at home.

I'd say most of it is due to convenience though.

Mooooo · 28-07-2018 10:14pm

The thing is the whole system has to be looked at. Housing has to start going up with public transport capacity and walk/ cycle facilities in to match. Planning in all areas of city life has to change

IE 222 · 28-07-2018 11:47pm

It's unrealistic to think removing car's in the city centre is going to solve these issues by moving everyone onto buses and trams. The vast majority of car's traveling through are going cross city. All major routes lead into the city centre and all cross city routes are limited to 2 or 3 bridge crossings or forced onto the quays. The large number of one way streets and illegal turns has forced more and more traffic into detouring deeper into the city than they need to.

There is a grown number of people working nights or early starts that PT won't cater for. As the commuter belt expands again and with more companies expanding to offices further out from the city we are going to see more cross city demand. It's not possible for PT serve a link between every town in the Dublin region.

The focus needs to be put on creating routes for better flows and separation rather than making it difficult for car users. A road like the A12 in belfast sunk below the surface and cover were needs be orbiting along the canals would be ideal but unlikely to happen.

It needs to be accepted that a certain percentage of traffic will remain as private car. PT will never wipe out the use of private car's regardless how well or good it works.

defrule · 29-07-2018 12:33am

People will only use public transport if it is more convenient to do so but the PT would need higher usage in order to justify service upgrades and such.

It's tough one to solve.

ED E · 29-07-2018 1:21am

Got a lift in a friends XTrail(I think, or something similar) bought new in '15 the other day. 1500km on the clock. Not 1500K KM, 1500. Only ever used for going to the shops. Depreciation alone is killing that. Taxis would have cost less all in. And now it has a serious mech issue. Luuuuuunacy.

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Taking cars out of parts of the city centre would make a huge difference, particularly for cyclists and pedestrians.. South William/Grafton/Dawson street area could really do with being pedestrianised

They've been trying that since the 90s with SW. Blocked every time by parking owners. You'd need to CPO a rake of carparks to get away with pedestrianisation and they're money makers so very much on the we can't afford it end of the spectrum.

Zebra3 · 29-07-2018 10:09am

defrule wrote: »

People will only use public transport if it is more convenient to do so but the PT would need higher usage in order to justify service upgrades and such.

It's tough one to solve.

Not true. I don't drive because I've no interest in driving and I see a car as a money pit.

magicbastarder · 29-07-2018 10:14am

IE 222 wrote: »

The vast majority of car's traveling through are going cross city.

i've often wondered what this statistic actually is. you have a source on the above?

Stephen15 · 29-07-2018 10:40am

IE 222 wrote: »

It's unrealistic to think removing car's in the city centre is going to solve these issues by moving everyone onto buses and trams. The vast majority of car's traveling through are going cross city. All major routes lead into the city centre and all cross city routes are limited to 2 or 3 bridge crossings or forced onto the quays. The large number of one way streets and illegal turns has forced more and more traffic into detouring deeper into the city than they need to.

I agree but they shouldn't be in town they should be on the M50, The Eastlink or in The Port Tunnel and not in the city centre. I personally think if we removed the M50 toll we would get a considerable amount of cars off the city streets. I used to know who used they would drive through town to go from the Southside to Swords on a Saturday the reason given was they found the M50 'too boring' despite it being miles quicker.

magicbastarder · 29-07-2018 10:46am

that's on a weekend though. the main issues that need to be sorted are weekday traffic. and the M50 is beyond capacity on weekdays.

Dravokivich · 29-07-2018 1:43pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I agree but they shouldn't be in town they should be on the M50, The Eastlink or in The Port Tunnel and not in the city centre. I personally think if we removed the M50 toll we would get a considerable amount of cars off the city streets. I used to know who used they would drive through town to go from the Southside to Swords on a Saturday the reason given was they found the M50 'too boring' despite it being miles quicker.

I don't think you will. I drive from Fairview, to leixlip, via the city in the mornings during school year because it's quicker for me to do so. After already going to Fairview from clondalkin via the m50.

monument · 29-07-2018 3:16pm

IE 222 wrote: »

It's unrealistic to think removing car's in the city centre is going to solve these issues by moving everyone onto buses and trams.

It is, but it is not unrealistic to think that the vast bulk of people making these car trips can instead use a mix of:

Walking
Cycling
Bus
Tram
Train
Metro
Car park and bike
Car park and ride
Car share
And some drive directly

IE 222 wrote: »

The vast majority of car's traveling through are going cross city. All major routes lead into the city centre and all cross city routes are limited to 2 or 3 bridge crossings or forced onto the quays. The large number of one way streets and illegal turns has forced more and more traffic into detouring deeper into the city than they need to.

All major routes lead into the city centre and nearly all of them are detrunked at the M50 and have other options for diverting before the city centre.

The bulk of people using cars in the city centre are staring inside and around the M50 aren’t going that far — the people starting beyond that are a minority and most of those aren’t giving into the depths of the city centre. For example, most people commuting from far out are driving to locations out near the M50.

IE 222 wrote: »

There is a grown number of people working nights or early starts that PT won't cater for.

Still a small percentage of people who work when there’s no public transport and cycling won’t meet their meet their needs.

IE 222 wrote: »

As the commuter belt expands again and with more companies expanding to offices further out from the city we are going to see more cross city demand.

We’re also going to see better cross-city public transport and cycle routes.

This image of the commuter belt expanding really needs challenging — the commuter belt would have to expand massively for it to outnumber the volume of people who live in Dublin City and Suburbs and areas just beyond such which have or will have decent enough public transport.

IE 222 wrote: »

It's not possible for PT serve a link between every town in the Dublin region.

It doesn’t have to. Some people will still drive to outer locations, others will use existing or improved public transport links — both direct or at a park and ride. Others will mix driving or car pooling or trains etc with cycling.

IE 222 wrote: »

The focus needs to be put on creating routes for better flows and separation rather than making it difficult for car users. A road like the A12 in belfast sunk below the surface and cover were needs be orbiting along the canals would be ideal but unlikely to happen.

It’s not about “difficult for car users” — it’s about providing alternatives.

Your suggestion of providing a motorway along the central section of the Grand Canal is 1970s thinking. Now that it is widely known how poorly cars are in cities, and the area is already fairly heavily populated with homes and workplaces.

IE 222 wrote: »

It needs to be accepted that a certain percentage of traffic will remain as private car. PT will never wipe out the use of private car's regardless how well or good it works.

But a tiny fraction of your vision of motorways along the central canals.

ED E wrote: »

Got a lift in a friends XTrail(I think, or something similar) bought new in '15 the other day. 1500km on the clock. Not 1500K KM, 1500. Only ever used for going to the shops. Depreciation alone is killing that. Taxis would have cost less all in. And now it has a serious mech issue. Luuuuuunacy.

They've been trying that since the 90s with SW. Blocked every time by parking owners. You'd need to CPO a rake of carparks to get away with pedestrianisation and they're money makers so very much on the we can't afford it end of the spectrum.

Zero need to CPO car parks — provide entry to the Brown Thomas car park on one side and, if needed, provide entry/exit to the other tiny car parks from the other end of the street. Is it just one now of any note if the AA’s is redevelopment?

This can be done without CPOs: http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/10/is-it-time-for-a-car-free-south-william-street-in-dublin/

AndrewJRenko · 29-07-2018 3:34pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I've often wondered why there are so many cars all joining up in the CC. Maybe they are not commuting, but going to hospitals, etc. and so on. The fact that there are free parking spaces for Civil Servants and City Council workers is a joke. But it will never be withdrawn will it?

Yeah, an absolute joke - I can't think why school inspectors, public health nurses, building inspectors, housing managers would need access to parking - can you?

Is this really a significant factor in our parking issues? The total number of spaces for civil servants are relatively modest, given the overall number of staff 37k nationwide. DCC have something like 400-500 spaces at Wood Quay, and over 10k staff, so it doesn't like a huge problem to me.

http://www.thejournal.ie/parking-levy-department-of-finance-budget-public-service-opw-427408-Apr2012/

IE 222 · 29-07-2018 3:58pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've often wondered what this statistic actually is. you have a source on the above?

I don't have a link but if you experience the traffic flows its easy to see where the traffic is heading (Not actual final destination but the general area outside the city centre).

How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

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