Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
03-03-2020, 22:01   #16
olestoepoke
Registered User
 
olestoepoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 877
Wasn't that around the time of the facist blue shirts that later became FG. Just saying.
olestoepoke is offline  
Thanks from:
Advertisement
03-03-2020, 22:01   #17
con747
Registered User
 
con747's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suckit View Post
What question? There is no question. Just an effort of a thread.
Very bad effort on both the resurrected threads. Ignore and might go away for a few more weeks.
con747 is offline  
Thanks from:
04-03-2020, 01:05   #18
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by olestoepoke View Post
Wasn't that around the time of the facist blue shirts that later became FG. Just saying.
You mean, "wasn't that around the time of the Fascist blueshirts that FG later absorbed and effectively buried, so they never troubled anyone again and Irish democracy survived the 1930s"?

No, it was a bit after that. The Blueshirts were absorbed into FG in 1933 and had been broken up, and their former leadership neutralised, by the end of 1934. The IRA didn's start flirting with the Nazis until about 1938.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 04-03-2020 at 03:25.
Peregrinus is offline  
04-03-2020, 07:01   #19
olestoepoke
Registered User
 
olestoepoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
You mean, "wasn't that around the time of the Fascist blueshirts that FG later absorbed and effectively buried, so they never troubled anyone again and Irish democracy survived the 1930s"?

No, it was a bit after that. The Blueshirts were absorbed into FG in 1933 and had been broken up, and their former leadership neutralised, by the end of 1934. The IRA didn's start flirting with the Nazis until about 1938.
They still represent the same class of people that the blue shirts did they are by far the richest party with their 50 TDs having a combined wealth of €80 million. When confronted with a housing crisis they will protect the landlord class and subsidise developers. In an economic crisis they will bail out their own class and punish single parents, workers, and the most vulnerable with austerity. In the 1930s they were prepared to flirt with fascism to defend their class privilege. Today, they have adopted the cloak of liberalism to maintain power. The lesson from the shady history of Fine Gael is simple; never trust them.
olestoepoke is offline  
(2) thanks from:
04-03-2020, 07:13   #20
olestoepoke
Registered User
 
olestoepoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 877
You mean, "wasn't that around the time of the Fascist blueshirts that FG later absorbed and effectively buried, so they never troubled anyone again and Irish democracy survived the 1930s"?

No, it was a bit after that. The Blueshirts were absorbed into FG in 1933 and had been broken up, and their former leadership neutralised, by the end of 1934. The IRA didn's start flirting with the Nazis until about 1938.[/QUOTE]
Screen Shot 2020-03-04 at 07.09.55.png
olestoepoke is offline  
Advertisement
04-03-2020, 07:43   #21
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by olestoepoke View Post
They still represent the same class of people that the blue shirts did they are by far the richest party with their 50 TDs having a combined wealth of €80 million. When confronted with a housing crisis they will protect the landlord class and subsidise developers. In an economic crisis they will bail out their own class and punish single parents, workers, and the most vulnerable with austerity. In the 1930s they were prepared to flirt with fascism to defend their class privilege. Today, they have adopted the cloak of liberalism to maintain power. The lesson from the shady history of Fine Gael is simple; never trust them.
You're under the impression that the Blueshirts represented wealthy people?
Peregrinus is offline  
04-03-2020, 14:02   #22
Ascendant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suckit View Post
What question? There is no question. Just an effort of a thread.

One possible question is what would have happened had Seán Russell had had his way and Britain lost the War. Would Hitler have allowed an independent (presumably united) Ireland to remain as such? Would Dev twisted in the wind and maintained Irish neutrality as before?
Ascendant is offline  
04-03-2020, 14:11   #23
bullpost
Registered User
 
bullpost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoondal View Post
The I.R.A. had a continuing contact with Nazi Germany from the mid 1930s until D-Day.
Before the war, the I.R.A. killed five civilians and wounded seventy in Coventry one week before war was declared.
Tom Barry was very keen about his stay in Berlin in the late 1930s.
Its common knowledge that Tom Barry was a fashionista and was really there to check out the latest Hugo Boss military uniforms worn by the SS.
bullpost is offline  
05-03-2020, 00:50   #24
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
One possible question is what would have happened had Seán Russell had had his way and Britain lost the War. Would Hitler have allowed an independent (presumably united) Ireland to remain as such? Would Dev twisted in the wind and maintained Irish neutrality as before?
I seem to recall that the Nazi plans for the government of occupied Britain, drawn up when they contemplated an invasion in 1940, are known to have identified six regional centres for the military occupation government, one of which was Dublin. I think that tells you all you need to know about how much they intended to respect Irish independence or Irish neutrality.

It's possible that there would have been a notionally separate Irish puppet state, but if so the Germans certainly thought of that and the corresponding British puppet state as a single unit, so far as German occupation/control was concerned. The truth is that whether there would be one puppet state or more than one is probably not a question to which they had given a great deal of thought.

Given all this, the question of what policy De Valera would have adopted seems to be moot. Nevertheless I think it worth pointing out that the question is oddly framed. If De Valera had sought to maintain Irish neutrality, how would this be "twisting in the wind"? Maintaining a policy of neutrality consistently with respect to both major belligerents seems to be pretty much the opposite of twisting in the wind.
Peregrinus is offline  
Thanks from:
Advertisement
05-03-2020, 01:54   #25
Ascendant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Given all this, the question of what policy De Valera would have adopted seems to be moot. Nevertheless I think it worth pointing out that the question is oddly framed. If De Valera had sought to maintain Irish neutrality, how would this be "twisting in the wind"? Maintaining a policy of neutrality consistently with respect to both major belligerents seems to be pretty much the opposite of twisting in the wind.
Well, neutral officially but leaning heavily towards one side at the expense of the other:
Quote:
Éire allowed British airmen who crashed on its territory to return home, but German pilots were interned

In 1941 fire crews from Drogheda and Dundalk helped when Belfast was blitzed by the Luftwaffe

The RAF was allowed to fly over the Donegal Air Corridor in order to patrol the Western Approaches during the Battle of the Atlantic, saving British planes a 100-mile detour

In 1941 de Valera banned the German Ambassador, Dr Hempel, from using his radio to contact the Third Reich and in 1943 he confiscated the radio, thereby limiting the Ambassador's ability to communicate Allied manoeuvres to Berlin

Weather reports were secretly transmitted to the Allies, and proved very valuable during the D-day landings in June 1944

In February 1945 de Valera gave permission for the British to establish secret radar bases in Éire
After all, no way was Dev stupid enough to think you could be completely quote-neutral-unquote when you're squeezed between two combatant countries on the same side, as in the UK and US.

Would Dev have tried the same deal with the Nazis in the event of a swastika flying over Downing Street or would he insisted on an actual not-helping-one-side-not-helping-the-other policy this time? Hitler may have tolerated it, assuming he still had troops tied up in Russia or elsewhere.
Ascendant is offline  
05-03-2020, 02:06   #26
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
Well, neutral officially but leaning heavily towards one side at the expense of the other:
After all, no way was Dev stupid enough to think you could be completely quote-neutral-unquote when you're squeezed between two combatant countries on the same side, as in the UK and US.

Would Dev have tried the same deal with the Nazis in the event of a swastika flying over Downing Street or would he insisted on an actual not-helping-one-side-not-helping-the-other policy this time? Hitler may have tolerated it, assuming he still had troops tied up in Russia or elsewhere.
If Germany had successfully invaded and occupied the UK in 1940 (but not Ireland, so Dev was still in a position to make any decisions) the war would have been over - neither the US nor the USSR nor Japan were belligerents at the time, and France had already been defeated. It's hard to see who would have continued fighting. So there would have been no conflict for Dev to be neutral in.
Peregrinus is offline  
05-03-2020, 02:22   #27
simongurnick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,369
History always sides with the victors. Not going to try to justify the nazi's by any means but the allies dropped the atomic bombs. IRA were right to seize on any potential opportunity. In previous years casement met the germans but they determined the IRA as too disorganized to rely on
.
simongurnick is offline  
08-03-2020, 01:47   #28
BalcombeSt4
Registered User
 
BalcombeSt4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,455
Yeah, David Llyod George had a great time in Berlin in the 1930's as well, so great he wrote an article on his return to Britain calling Hitler the greatest German who ever lived.

Neville Chamberlain went to Munich in the 1930's to cut up Czechoslovakia & hand it to Hitler on a plate.

Yes, the IRA bombed Coventry in 1939 & killed 5 people. The Glenanne Gang bombed Dublin & Monaghan in May 1974 & killed 34 people.

History taking out of context & spun around means nothing.
BalcombeSt4 is offline  
Thanks from:
08-03-2020, 01:58   #29
BalcombeSt4
Registered User
 
BalcombeSt4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
If Germany had successfully invaded and occupied the UK in 1940 (but not Ireland, so Dev was still in a position to make any decisions) the war would have been over - neither the US nor the USSR nor Japan were belligerents at the time, and France had already been defeated. It's hard to see who would have continued fighting. So there would have been no conflict for Dev to be neutral in.
But the war have had to resume at some point if Hitler wanted to take the "living space" the USSR had in East, and to take control of the oil fields in the Caucasus.
BalcombeSt4 is offline  
08-03-2020, 20:13   #30
Scoondal
Registered User
 
Scoondal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 514
The IRA's links with Nazi Germany
Recently released MI5 files, together with unpublished memoirs by the IRA’s top emissary to pre-war Berlin, shed fresh light on the hitherto covert links between extreme republicans and German military intelligence, as David O’Donoghue reports.


The first direct talks between the IRA and the Nazis began in 1937 when Tom Barry, the then chief-of-staff, travelled to Germany. The legendary leader of the Cork flying columns was accompanied on his travels by a German agent, Jupp Hoven. While posing as a TCD student, Hoven undertook spying work in Belfast, Dublin and Cork. He was a close friend of Helmut Clissmann who ran the German academic exchange service in Dublin. Both men were from Aachen and had nurtured links with the IRA in the 1930s.

Barry’s 1937 trip to the continent was aimed at seeking German support for IRA attacks on British military installations in Northern Ireland. But at an IRA convention in April 1938, Barry’s plan was rejected in favour of more grandiose pro-German plans conceived by the new chief-of-staff, Seán Russell. The 1916 veteran had long cherished a Casement-style alliance with Germany.

James O’Donovan and the S-plan



In August 1938, Russell called on an old IRA comrade, James O’Donovan who, since 1930, had been working as a manager at ESB headquarters in Dublin. The IRA leader’s visit was to enlist his friend’s help in designing a bombing campaign on English soil, to be launched the following year. Russell and O’Donovan were the only two surviving members of the IRA general headquarters staff who had opposed the Anglo-Irish treaty in January 1922. Despite being on the state payroll and having a young family, O’Donovan did not hesitate to accept Russell’s call to arms. In his unpublished memoirs (written in retirement in the 1960s), O’Donovan boasted that while Russell

‘became responsible for personnel, organisation and finance…I evolved the whole details of the sabotage campaign [the S-plan]…conducted the entire training of cadre units, was responsible for all but locally-derived intelligence, carried out small pieces of research and, in general, controlled the whole explosives and munitions end.’


O’Donovan’s elder son, Donal, had misgivings about his father’s decision to re-enlist with the IRA in 1938, at the age of 41. But James O’Donovan himself never expressed any regrets about his role in the English bombing campaign, which resulted in the deaths of seven members of the public, scores of serious injuries, and the execution of two IRA volunteers in February 1940.


The IRA declares war
The S-plan kicked off with polite formality, as might be expected from an ex-pupil of the Jesuits (O’Donovan was born in Roscommon in 1896 and educated at Glasgow’s prestigious St Aloysius College). In mid-January 1939, the British foreign secretary, Lord Halifax, received an IRA letter declaring war, which began ‘Your Excellency…’. It was typical of O’Donovan to issue a deadly threat cloaked in formal terms.


The ultimatum gave the British government four days to withdraw troops from Northern Ireland—an impossible deadline to meet. In fact, however, the S-plan had nothing to do with forcing a British withdrawal from the North, and everything to do with attracting the attention of the Germans. Russell saw Hitler as the only European leader capable of destroying Britain. His logic was that with England on her knees, nothing could prevent a German-backed reunification of Ireland.


Abwehr makes contact; O’Donovan dispatched to Germany

As a wave of IRA bombs exploded across English cities on 16 January 1939, it didn’t take the Abwehr long to act. In early February, it dispatched one of its agents, Oscar Pfaus, to Dublin to meet the IRA leadership. O’Donovan recalled that on 3 February the German agent ‘met Seán Russell and myself in Pete’s [Kearney] house in Clontarf. He explained that his principals would be glad to meet a representative from us and discuss the possibility of assistance…’


This was an offer the IRA leaders could not refuse. Having been entrusted by Russell to reciprocate Oscar Pfaus’s visit, O’Donovan set off for Hamburg with his wife Monty, a sister of the republican martyr Kevin Barry. The ground-breaking IRA-Abwehr talks continued at various addresses in the city and O’Donovan recalled that ‘we discussed many matters of common interest’. The Abwehr team was led by the head of its Hamburg office, Friedrich Carl Marwede (who used the cover name Pfalzgraf). O’Donovan recalled:


‘I dealt with the whole IRA position as given to me by Seán Russell. I passed on in good faith what events proved to be a very roseate appraisal of their strength in personnel and equipment, and their prospects as an organisation.’


It was agreed that the Germans could summon O’Donovan to Germany by writing to him, in code, at ‘Florenceville’, the ESB manager’s lavish Shankill home set in 1.5 acres of gardens. In addition, the Germans supplied the IRA emissary with radio transmission ciphers, coded letters ‘to convey important elementary messages’ and a list of Abwehr agents’ names and addresses.


But with no immediate prospect of money from Germany to sustain the bombing campaign in England, the IRA decided to send Seán Russell on a fund-raising trip to America where he would liaise with Joe McGarrity, the powerful leader of the Clan na Gael organisation. Stephen Hayes from Wexford was appointed to take over as the new chief-of-staff.


O’Donovan’s second and third visits to Nazi Germany
On 24 April 1939, Jim O’Donovan set off for Hamburg again. Arranging ten days’ holiday from his ESB job, O’Donovan caught the liner New York at Cobh on Monday, 24 April 1939. According to historian J. Bowyer Bell, the visit was ‘to discuss potential agents, the supply of arms in the event of war, radio sets and courier communication. The only firm result was a courier route between Brussels and London using an exiled Breton’. O’Donovan’s memoirs disclose that the Breton was Paul Moyse whom O’Donovan later met (on Sunday 21 May 1939) when he visited the Belgian capital to collect Abwehr radio codes. Meanwhile, the S-plan continued unabated. In May alone, there were over 40 IRA incendiary, tear-gas and bomb attacks in 13 English towns and cities.


O’Donovan’s final visit to Nazi Germany occurred in late summer 1939 when he and his wife boarded the liner Washington in Cobh on Friday 18 August. The ship had sailed from New York and it was hardly a coincidence that the head of Clan na Gael, Joe McGarrity, was also on board. In fact, both men were scheduled to meet senior Abwehr agents in Berlin.


Jim and Monty stayed at the exclusive Rüssischer Hof hotel. O’Donovan initially met with two Abwehr agents called Neumeister and Schwendy. As his memoirs reveal, O’Donovan saw himself as a ‘plenipotentiary’ with ‘plenary powers’ to negotiate with Hitler’s regime on behalf of the ‘government and people of the republic of Ireland’. At a city apartment, they were joined by other Abwehr agents, and O’Donovan noted that their ‘sympathy with my objectives was obvious and sincere’. Later on, Neumeister sounded him out ‘as to England’s probable reactions in the event of war’. For three hours, O’Donovan faced a continual ‘bombardment of questions’ from the German agents whose faces appeared ‘strained and flushed’.


In 1946, Kurt Haller (a German foreign office liaison officer with the Abwehr) told MI5 that at the meetings in Neumeister’s Berlin flat, O’Donovan


‘…again asked for German support for the occupation of Northern Ireland, while Marwede requested concentration, for the time being, on smaller military targets in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The Germans tried to stall O’Donovan over Northern Ireland, but did not refuse point-blank, nor did O’Donovan altogether refuse IRA participation in attacks on military targets, but no real agreement was reached on this fundamental point. A large part of the discussions dealt with technical details. It transpired that O’Donovan was ordnance officer and QMG [quartermaster general] of the IRA and seemed most interested in obtaining delivery of weapons, ammunition and explosives.’


Three days after returning to Dublin, Jim O’Donovan was able to watch from the safety of his ESB office as the tragic events unfolded in Coventry. On Friday 25 August, an IRA bicycle bomb exploded in the West Midlands city killing five people and injuring 72.


Seán Russell and Frank Ryan
The outbreak of war just over a week later put paid to the seven-point Berlin pact agreed between Jim O’Donovan and Major Marwede. The German arms, ammunition and explosives were never delivered, but money was sent via various agents. Thirteen German agents were sent to Ireland in the 1939-1943 period. The radio link was up and running in October, and the courier service was also used.


A year later, Seán Russell was in Berlin for talks with top members of the Nazi regime. On 4 August 1940, the Abwehr reported that Frank Ryan had arrived in Berlin (having been released from prison in northern Spain shortly before). The following day, unknown to Ryan, a conference was held by foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, which was attended by Abwehr chief, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, his deputy, Erwin von Lahousen, Edmund Veesenmayer (Ribbentrop’s coup d’état specialist), and Seán Russell representing the IRA. On 7 August, Russell and Ryan were to sail from Wilhelmshaven on a U-boat bound for Ireland. But the mission was called off when Russell died aboard the vessel.

Lahousen told MI5 interrogators in 1946 that ‘Canaris contemptuously referred to Russell as the “music professor”’. Kurt Haller told MI5 that at the Berlin meetings Seán Russell had ‘for the first time…mentioned the potential strength of the IRA (including sympathisers) which he gave as 5,000-10,000 men. This figure was far below German expectations’. According to Haller, ‘the German motive for sending Ryan [to Ireland] was that Russell, throughout his stay in Germany, had shown considerable reticence towards the Germans and plainly did not regard himself as a German agent’. Haller added: ‘By sending Ryan, Abwehr II felt that their own interests would be better safeguarded, as Ryan accepted more easily his position as a German agent’.


Frank Ryan remained on in Germany (until his death in a Dresden sanatorium in 1944) and according to MI5 files, Veesenmayer had already decided to use Ryan as Russell’s successor in 'an auxiliary offensive operation against Great Britain’. Under the German plan, Ryan was

‘to approach the Irish govt. and suggest that the German invasion of Britain would be an opportune moment for the seizure of Northern Ireland…German support [would be] assured, but the Germans would act only after de Valera had committed himself. Ryan had told Veesenmayer that de Valera would support such a plan as this, provided he considered it a legitimate risk to take.’




A post-war MI5 file records that in August 1942, Frank Ryan ‘is said to have been received by Hitler’. But by then Ireland was on Berlin’s back-burner, as the year-old campaign against the USSR was foundering.

While the Nazis saw the IRA as a useful allies should the Wehrmacht invade Britain in 1940, the IRA saw Germany as a stepping stone to a united Ireland. But did Seán Russell, Jim O’Donovan or Frank Ryan ever stop to consider that, had their plan succeeded, the reunited country would amount to nothing more than a puppet state? O’Donovan certainly didn’t, claiming that a victorious Nazi Germany ‘would have been very generous indeed’ to Ireland, which ‘at last would become a place worth living in’.


David O’Donoghue’s The Devil’s Deal: The IRA, Nazi Germany and the Double Life of Jim O’Donovan (2010) was recently published by New Island.

This article originally appeared in History Ireland, March/April 2011 (Vol. 19, No. 2) and is reproduced here with the kind permission of History Ireland.



© Queen's University Belfast 2020, University Road Belfast, B
Scoondal is offline  
Thanks from:
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet