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CC3 -- Why I believe that a third option is needed for climate change

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Hello, we are back (for a while) ... I asked if I could post an update on my bogged down project to get Toronto data fully up for discussion over on Net-weather. It has been a marathon and while I knew it was going to take weeks, a few issues came up with data since 2003 when the precip was being measured in two different styles and time frames, and even worse since mid-2017 when the second option disappeared from the website leaving me with no daily snowfall numbers at the location (but daily snowdepth reports together with precip, and a fairly dense net of other climate stations in Toronto as a guide).

    I am hoping that when I contact Environment Canada with the results (in about a week perhaps) they might be able to enlighten me about the details of the timing issues (suspecting some precip data changed from the long-standing calendar day to 0800h-0800h reporting) as well as a few other questions that arose about early practices (1840 to 1848 mostly) that sometimes appear as though accumulated rainfall gets into the data looking like daily specific values.

    Anyway, the data posting is very near the finish line (I am basically in sight of the stadium anyway) with just daily precip records for September to December left to post, plus a summary already available of dry spells in the 180 years. Then all the data with monthly rankings will be up and available, and I can link to my massive excel file of the data which has many graphs to illustrate various trends and outcomes.

    There will also need to be posts created for modified temperature rankings with the urban heat island removed from the trend. I have made a start on that in house and found that while it narrows the gap between recent and not so recent warmest months and in some cases brings back into top spots some of the eclipsed 1920-1950 era values, it only tweaks the order overall because most of the colder half of the rankings were from pre-heat island times and remain below the adjusted values of the more recent cold months, although, and somewhat remarkably, the coldest December would now be 1989 (third in raw data), the coldest Febs would be nearly a three-way tie of 1885, 1934 and 2015, and the coldest January top five would see 1994 moving from fourth to second coldest. This would be after a relatively modest urban heat island progressive downward adjustment starting at zero in 1881 and working its way up to 1.2 by 1980 (not increased thereafter as large city urban heat islands flatten out once the city expands beyond a 50 km diameter). To set the urban heat island's intermediate values I have compared two long-period outlying and entirely rural locations with the Toronto data to establish trends, and checked the research literature on magnitudes of heat islands (something that I studied in my university days and even made a contribution towards) -- the general underlying theme is that the heat islands take off with a fast start at around 10,000 to 50,000 populations then slow down in reverse exponential form after about 100,000 (which Toronto had reached before 1901) but there's the issue of how older data might respond in the earlier stages of modern urban heating parameters (different styles of home heating, fewer vehicles per capita on roads etc), so have come up with a somewhat delayed total response model that blends the traditional reverse exponential with a more linear paradigm to account for the increase in vehicle traffic and generally higher ambient home heating standards (warmer houses and businesses can emit more heat into the heat island).

    Picture for example the typical Toronto neighbourhood around turn of century (1900), houses mainly heated by coal or even wood stoves, not oil or natural gas, and few if any people owning a car, just a few trolleys and cars on roads, so very few paved surfaces. On the other hand, Toronto has a considerable "urban forest" and I suspect that it is largely second growth with perhaps an interval around 1880 to 1900 when it was substantially removed at least within a few miles of the weather station. There was no university campus until around 1890, so I suspect there may have been a lot of open space with construction sites not too far from the pre-1908 location which would be 1.2 km south of the later (1908 to 2003) location. This may be partly why there's a bit of a spike in annual maximum temperatures around 1916 to 1922 which is actually the warmest seven year average of that statistic (1933 to 1939 very similar, later spikes in 1950s and 2010s not quite as high). I will have that graph available for posting. The interval from 1978 to 1986 had almost as low an average for the statistic as the coldest stretches of the 19th century. The maximum never broke 35 C (95 F) from 1978 to 1986 except for one day at 96 F in 1983. The long-term average of annual maximum works out to 34 C (93 F) and some intervals exceed 36, but it retreated to about 32 in the period 1978 to 1986.

    The adjusted ranks of monthly and annual temperatures can be better used than the existing raw data but even that tends to show quite clearly that the main episode of warming at Toronto took place around 1890 and rather quickly, almost a phase change during a short period of time perhaps 1889 to 1893 after which the data start to look very similar to the modern period.

    Some other parameters show trends that are probably at variance with conventional climate change assumptions but may still be significant. In general terms, rainfall started out very high in the 1840s, drifted down to its lowest point by the 1870s (but that partly because this was the coldest interval so more winter season precip fell as snow than rain), bounced back to long-term average oscillating tendencies from about the 1880s to 1920s, went into drought mode in the 1930s, recovered from that back to the long-term average 1950s-1970s, hit a notable wet spell mid-1980s, somewhat drier through 1990s into mid-2000s decade, then has been steadily approaching a return to the wetter mode of the 1840s in most recent years. While it has some way to go yet to rival 1840-44 (the wettest five year interval) it is clearly wetter in recent years than what I recall from my younger days when I lived in that region.

    Unfortunately the station stopped recording sunshine hours some time around the 1980s, still searching for any data to extend a printed document I have of sunshine hours 1882 to 1967. For some unknown reason, EC with their very extensive climate data base ignore the existence of sunshine hours as if nobody had ever measured them. There used to be tables of daily and monthly values in the printed forms of the monthly climate bulletins that are essentially the source of the internet data base otherwise. And I suspect partly from my own memory of weather trends that sunshine hours peaked around 1962 to 1964 and steadily declined after that back to the cloudier mode that was evident in the 1880s and 1890s. This may have some connection to jet contrails spreading out, I know this has been discussed in the literature as a possible cause of enhanced cloudiness.

    Another trend that is fairly stark is that recent temperature increases are entirely nocturnal (at Toronto anyway). There has been a 2:1 shift in ratios of record high mins to record high maxes. The number of new record high mins since 1970 is almost two thirds of the data set, whereas the number of new record highs is barely one third and is also barely above the random expectation for 53 of 180 years of data. At the risk of generalizing too coarsely, the situation seems to be that after a burst of multiple record highs set in the high-variability 1970s, the pace slowed to a crawl in that colder spell, resumed for a time (1987-91 set a fairly robust number), and has oscillated around random since that. And I could say that almost entirely the new records are either (a) in the winter shoulder seasons Nov-Dec and late Feb-Mar, or (b) picking off the weakest of the herd of older records. I can only find three "older" record maxima that I would consider robust that have been edged out (in each case by about 1 degree). But with the record high minima, it seems that any mid-level warm spell nowadays will threaten the existing set of record mins. It has become typical for recent heat waves (which are a regular feature of the climate) to produce days that are 2-4 deg below record values and overnight lows that are close to the record values. In general terms, the old heat wave standard of about 35/21 (95/70) has turned into 33/23 (92/73) with more cloud and higher humidity levels. The humidex values are probably similar. There are exceptions but that seems to be the background theme of the modern summer climate. This blends well with the observation that there has been an increase in summer rainfall too, not by number of days though (that statistic seems to be constant).

    Despite the above, the actual number of new record high rainfall values is very close to random expectation and the maximum values are almost identical to the previous ones. For example, the highest one-day rainfall in the data set was 97 mm in July 1897; now the second highest one is 96 mm from July 2013. The highest January rainfall of about 63 mm (1843) was recently duplicated in January 2020 (but before that had not been approached within 20 mm). The same story is told by rainfall data in other months. I am working my way through the autumn months now and the number of extra tropical storm events associated with record daily rainfalls is remarkable even going back well into the mid-19th century. This trend has continued but I certainly see no evidence that it has increased -- it seems that even in the colder climate of the 19th century, when other pressure pattern studies would show clear evidence of a more southward jet stream position than in the 20th century, the same number of tropical systems managed to find their way to the Great Lakes region, and would then dump record rainfalls (many of them are in the 50-100 mm range). The total number over the entire data would be upwards of 50, and I have less evidence available for the 1840s than other decades. So by September almost half the daily records have some association with tropical remnants. This continues to mid-October then dies off by early November. The number early in the season is small, two cases in June, none detected in July, then a sprinkling in August.

    Winter snowfall is certainly in a declining mode. Toronto is not in the climate zone of the U.S. northeast coastal cities where it is sometimes claimed that recent winters have seen increases (and those are due to climate change). Neither of those claims really survives a rigorous test anyway, but what is certainly true at Toronto is that with the notable increase in winter shoulder season temperatures has come a reduction in snowfall then also. The reduction is less evident in later December and January or the first half of February. Overall the number of new snowfall record values is about two thirds of random expectation since 1970. Despite that, there was a conflicting signal around the period of 1968 to 1976 for increased numbers of unseasonable snowfalls. New marks were set for latest in season 25 cm and 10 cm snowfalls (Apr 1975 and 1976), and earliest 10 cm (Oct 1969). So the 1970s are not really claimed to be a mainstream portion of the recent warming anyway, but what apparently took place in the 20th century warming was a relapse to mid-19th century (with a full urban heat island modification factor) for about a decade and a half, then with the stronger El Nino events around 1982, 1990, 1998, 2006 and more recently, pulses of warmth that have brought things back to about where they stood in peak warming times like 1916-22, the 1930s and 1946-59.

    I am starting to think of the 1960s now as a period when the mid-20th century warmth began to flicker a bit, when it was "on" there could be record values even up to monthly maxima (May, June and October all set records in the sunny years of 1962-64). But the warming was not on as frequently as in the early 1950s for example. Then it went into high-variability mode on an epic scale (some of the ups and downs of the 1970s are stupendous and I was lucky to have lived through them in more ways than one). I've thought more than once that if we just had the 1970s over again the climate change lobby would go berserk with angst, if they think this rather damped down recent climate is pushing the limits (which I consider a faulty assumption based on ignorance of the data, hence this project), then they would really "freak out" if the 1970s came around again. Consider for example, April 1976, a week of record warmth followed by a heavy snowstorm.

    Nowadays if one day touches 20 C in April there is no end to the "we will all die" chatter, and if it were to snow even an inch I am sure people would be told that it was out-of-control climate change at work. From all available evidence, I would have to imagine that the average politician, media reporter, or even climate change student, would score about 10 out of 100 on any quiz of true or false on past climate statistics. I imagine a quiz with questions like this: True or false, the majority of days above 35 C were before you were born.

    You would need to be 81 years old (in Toronto) to answer "false" to that question.

    Not sure if we'll keep the thread open or not, but I did want to mention that while I value open discussion and free speech, at the same time I saw no useful purpose to much of the off-topic intrusions (the sidereal day stuff in particular) and if we do continue I think anything that far off the straight line should be eliminated. In the absence of a lot of material on topic from myself, the discussion rather predictably reverted to the default values of AGW vs skeptic rhetoric which might be worth a separate thread somewhere else; the whole point of my new perspective being that perhaps the best response to the question of climate change is to assume warming and work from there. I don't think there's anything meaningful that we can do to alter the outcome because I feel like two thirds or more of the climate change response is naturally driven anyway so that our attempts to modify our portion of the complex outcome will be negligible even though perhaps harming the economy by trying (as we are seeing in Canada recently, overly hysterical responses to the situation are crippling economic planning and ripping apart a rather precarious social fabric with no winners, just each faction losing). The experience of the former Yugoslavia can teach us that in a breakdown of civil society and widespread factional fighting, there can be an outcome where everyone loses and nobody wins.

    If that's what the AGW brigade want, then so be it. It's not what I want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    SeaBreezes wrote: »
    Also a pet hate of mine is the term 'Climate Change denier' firstly, no one is arguing the climate is changing, what is being questioned is what is causing it.
    That's not true although a lot of deniers now switched to the origin denial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    From: https://www.met.ie/cms/assets/uploads/2020/02/FebRain.pdf
    In Met Éireann, basic trend analysis has been performed on a number of high quality rainfall stations over a fifty year period. Some stations show an increase in the frequency of heavy precipitation (>10mm) / very heavy precipitation (>20mm) days over the past decades, however other stations show a decrease, there is large regional variation and occasionally conflicting trends from
    stations that are geographically relatively close. The fact that rainfall displays such a high degree
    of variability, both temporally and spatially makes it difficult to be definitive about trends.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Danno wrote: »
    Which is precisely why climate change isn't a "settled science", weather is variable over several decades, climate change over centuries.


    The human variable is strongest in areas that have had large human influences, urban areas, deforested areas, agricultural areas and other areas that have been terraformed by humans. The common factor is that in the vast majority of the areas that have seen a deviation from "long term trends" have always been in areas that have been transformed by humans.


    Areas of the planet that are far away from human influence do not have records that can claim climate change, only proxy data or estimated data to record historic temperature variations. Historical records have also proven Viking settlements in Greenland existed during the middle ages and that these were abandoned (or died out) around the fourteenth century due to natural cooling.


    These facts need to be considered when looking at climate change, human activity plays a part, but it must always be remembered that that part is far less than 100%, which is what some alarmists want us to believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Humans can adapt to climate change. Not a bother to us. Let's say an extreme of gobal temp rise by 5C within 10 yr.s. Causing a rise in sea levels, extreme weather events, flooding of some arable land, and mass extinctions.
    A lot of big capital cities on the coast will be flooded...no problem just rebuild inland ..great for the economy.
    Extreme weather events..no problem just batten down the hatches.
    Flooded arable land....no problem we have too much food as is and are capable of growing much more with our expertise and tech.
    Mass extinctions.. who cares..no problem.
    Now of course I'm talking about richer people in areas that won't be hit too hard🙂 Alot of poor people in vunerable regions will suffer greatly. But as a species as a whole sure
    we'd have a great time, but the weather on the planet Earth would change a bit quick for some species.

    I forgot what my point was now after that rambling.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    Great thread.
    I remember a documentary about Greenland ice cores concluding that the climate has been unusually stable over the last several thousand years. Before this, it would swing from one extreme to the other repeatedly.
    In other words, we have been spoiled by our stable climate when something more chaotic may have been the norm for most of human history. We maybe at risk from suffering climate shocks far more sudden and unavoidable than anything anthropomorphic.

    Recorded history is littered with the impacts of volcanic eruptions, affecting weather patterns for decades afterwards. A 30 year long El-Nino for instance, bringing decades of drought to Africa and Asia.
    We have very short memories, and like to assume what we've experienced in our lifetimes is "the norm." Perhaps we've just been lucky.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Yup we might be lucky.

    Toba volcanic eruption for example is theorised to have reduced the human population 70,000 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    So yesterday it was announced that Moscow has had its warmest winter on record,with an average temp above zero

    Global warming in action Greta says
    Persistent westerlies and southerlies I say
    Feb and march 2018 in Ireland was not an example of global cooling
    Persistent easterlies I say


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    Feb and march 2018 in Ireland was not an example of global cooling

    Feb 2020 was pretty cool here in my basement office... :(
    Maybe I live in weather anomaly tho...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Don't rush over but this is the Toronto data base thread on Net-weather.

    https://www.netweather.tv/forum/topic/93113-toronto-180-a-north-american-data-base-of-180-years/

    ... I have been bogged down getting to the finish line by storm Jorge, contest work that peaks on 1st and 2nd of every month, and some technical issues. Plus wetterzentrale had a surprise for me, just as I reached the end they added 1836-50 maps to the data base, so all the comments I made about not having maps for events in the 1840s need to be edited and content updated where feasible.

    Not that I am very impressed with these maps, I had suspected the ones from about 1851 to 1870 might be a bit sparse on details and intensity (for North America and Pacific, east Asia more than western Europe), but these maps are even more basic looking. And from the looks of their treatment of the Jan 6-7, 1839 storm that hit Ireland, there is definitely a lack of precision -- I've seen research study maps of that event showing a 930 mb centre on a track similar to Jorge, but the most they seem to show on wetterzentrale's version is 975 mbs. ???

    However, I assume there is some gain from the maps, rudimentary as they may be. I managed to resolve one issue about a heavy snowfall in October 1844 that had no specific dates just a monthly total. Some day when I have more time I am going to try to assign all the monthly snowfalls for 1843-44 that have no daily precision in the Toronto data base. Unfortunately as luck would have it, those were both fairly heavy snowfall years so one or two daily records might have happened. I spotted one good candidate just taking a quick look through Feb 1843 where there was a lot of snow and no rain in the data base. There again, the celebrated storm of Jan 31, 1843 appears to have been judged as a coastal by NOAA/wetterzentrale when anecdotal evidence suggests it was a deep low tracking through the lower Great Lakes. They can't have much more to work on than Providence and Toronto as explained in my thread.

    So the point being, the Toronto data base is very near completion over there, I am actually working on the last two posts in edit format and they could be finished as soon as March 4th. Then it would be a case of selecting a half dozen interesting graphs for posting and opening that thread back up to the discussion (which could start up at any time if someone decides to post a comment, I have reserved the data base posts so there would be no interruption by comments and debates).

    If there is one over-riding theme, I would say that this study puts paid to the notion that in recent times, we are seeing more intense weather events. The opposite seems to be true. Some of the events uncovered by this systematic logging of all records of temperature and precipitation have led me to the strong conclusion that the trend is away from severe weather of most forms, or at the worst, steady state.

    I can only imagine what the climate change lobby and associated media and politicians would make of a repeat of any of these events:

    ** various heavy rainfall sequences in the 1840s, 1878 and 1894

    ** four consecutive record snowfalls in March 1870

    ** the heat experienced without any heat island effect in July 1868 and September 1881

    ** the intense windstorm of Nov 9-10, 1913 (many freighters sunk on Lake Huron)

    ** heat waves of the intensity shown in 1911, 1916, 1918, 1919, 1921, 1936, 1948, 1953 and 1955, only weakly matched in a few cases since then

    But in more prosaic terms, the data will show that the frequency of extreme weather indicators like 50 mm daily rainfalls, 30 cm daily or 2d snowfalls, even days above 35 C, are in a slight to considerable decline in recent decades. I will be working up the proof of that in round two of the study (selected comparisons by decades).

    Now the critics are going to say this is cherry-picking one particular spot, but I am quite sure that what is true for Toronto would apply in general terms for a considerable extent of east-central North America. The weather is not getting more extreme, by any means. The climate of the Great lakes region in general is one of vast and sometimes violent contrasts. There may have been a shift around the 1890s from a colder theme to the 20th century theme of warmth. But even in the colder 19th century, tropical systems were able to get up into the region from time to time, and a few episodes of record warmth were noted. The frequency of those took a marked increase around the 1890s and not all of that is due to the urban heat island starting to develop. I can see from tracking many of the record rains and snowfalls that the climate shifted in terms of storm tracks, it used to be much more frequent for lows to track south of Toronto, then by the 20th century they were tending to track more through southern Ontario and probably the shift has continued northward since then. Not to say you can't get the occasional strong low running to the south of the lakes, but the frequency seems to be lower. This is one reason why snowfall has declined especially outside of the coldest portion of the winter, mid-December to mid-February when the decline is less evident.

    It is this general consideration that change appears to be more natural and less human-induced, combined with what I consider a faulty diagnosis of increased severity, that prompts me to suggest a third alternative, since I also disagree with those who say we might be heading for colder times. I sort of wish they were right, although a colder climate would not necessarily be any boon to humanity in most cases either.

    There is so much detail in this study it could be rather overwhelming and I think only a clinical approach to data analysis is going to resolve the actual trends that may be contained, but even a quick reading would convince most people that the climate of Toronto has always been quite volatile and full of extremes of various kinds, in comparison to any point you might select in Europe. Any given year in Toronto, even some of the blander ones, would qualify as an astonishing year in Britain, let alone in Ireland. No surprise in that, Toronto has an essentially continental climate modified slightly by the Great Lakes and the distant effects of the Atlantic. It is difficult to remember at times that the latitude is that of south-central France, the winters are certainly quite harsh compared to most places at a similar latitude in Eurasia (at comparable elevations, Lake Ontario is only about 80 metres above sea level, the weather station may be a little over 100 metres).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    So yesterday it was announced that Moscow has had its warmest winter on record,with an average temp above zero

    Global warming in action Greta says
    Persistent westerlies and southerlies I say
    Feb and march 2018 in Ireland was not an example of global cooling
    Persistent easterlies I say

    And polar regions had one of their coldest - which is linked to the strength of the PV


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭Hooter23


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    So yesterday it was announced that Moscow has had its warmest winter on record,with an average temp above zero

    Global warming in action Greta says
    Persistent westerlies and southerlies I say
    Feb and march 2018 in Ireland was not an example of global cooling
    Persistent easterlies I say

    They had record warmth because of the record polar vortex up in the arctic trapping the majority of the cold up there...nothing got to do with so called climate change...parts of Russia saw near record cold 2 years ago I suppose this is evidence of climate change too


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Hooter23 wrote: »
    They had record warmth because of the record polar vortex up in the arctic trapping the majority of the cold up there...nothing got to do with so called climate change...parts of Russia saw near record cold 2 years ago I suppose this is evidence of climate change too

    The source of much of the N.H warmth during the winter season came from a relatively small, but very warm region off the SE coast of the US, which continual pumped warmer temp anomalies into much of Europe and the greater Eurasian continent in general due to the position of the jet-stream, which itself was the result of the sharp thermal contrast between a cold southern Arctic and warm northern tropical region. What role Co2 and 'climate change' played in this I don't know, but climatologically speaking, the explanation is simple and uncomplicated.

    New Moon



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Yup lads
    I just wheeled out what was directly causing it
    Co2 and global warming my aunt sally


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Since the outbreak of Corona Virus it struck me when listening to the radio discussions that lots and lots of Schools organise annual ski trips to the Alps and the likes.

    Then I remembered the Schools being encouraged to go to Dublin recently for this: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/climate-change-strike-irish-students-join-millions-protesting-globally-1.4024673

    I can't quite put my finger on it, but 1+1 is not equaling 2 here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    And polar regions had one of their coldest - which is linked to the strength of the PV


    No they haven't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    So yesterday it was announced that Moscow has had its warmest winter on record,with an average temp above zero

    Global warming in action Greta says
    Persistent westerlies and southerlies I say
    Feb and march 2018 in Ireland was not an example of global cooling
    Persistent easterlies I say


    Which is like saying 'the river flooded because it went over it's banks'


    Why did the wind blow so persistently from those directions? Have you no deeper sense of inquiry? Moscow's winter was 2.5C warmer than the previous warmest winter. Why? Have such wind dominances not happened before, or not? If so why or why not?


    Ask questions! Don't just stop when you have the answer you want it to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    posidonia wrote: »
    No they haven't.
    Record cold in Greenland...... this is at a high elevation of 10,000 feet atop the Greenland Ice Sheet. There is a research station at Summit Camp. The temperature yesterday was -86.8 degrees which makes it the coldest it has ever been in Greenland
    The harsh temperatures set new record lows throughout Alberta and Saskatchewan on Wednesday, where many saw temperatures dive into the -40s during the overnight period. The City of Calgary hit -33.2°C, which broke the previous record of -31.1°C that was set in 2005. Temperatures at Edmonton International Airport Climate hit the -40s, reaching -42.2°C and surpassing the old record of -35.9°C from 2005.

    Not to mention the ice growth. I'm sure I am cherry picking tho!


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Nabber wrote: »
    Not to mention the ice growth. I'm sure I am cherry picking tho!


    The -86.8 'degrees' (you mean 'F' I think) record is dubious.



    To a post about Moscow's warmest winter you reply that polar regions have had one of their coldest - implying you are talking about the Arctic winter. But, no, you mean a single dubious cold record and and a few cold days in one place. A few days is a winter?


    Lets be clear, the Arctic has not had one of it's colder winters. Period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭SpitfireIV


    Danno wrote: »
    Since the outbreak of Corona Virus it struck me when listening to the radio discussions that lots and lots of Schools organise annual ski trips to the Alps and the likes.

    Then I remembered the Schools being encouraged to go to Dublin recently for this: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/climate-change-strike-irish-students-join-millions-protesting-globally-1.4024673

    I can't quite put my finger on it, but 1+1 is not equaling 2 here.

    :D Ah c'mon, you cant begrudge the youngins racking up a few measly air miles, sure what harm would it cause? After all, saving the planet is a tough gig, they deserve a break.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    posidonia wrote: »
    A few days is a winter?


    Lets be clear, the Arctic has not had one of it's colder winters. Period.

    A single winter is climate now? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    posidonia wrote: »
    The -86.8 'degrees' (you mean 'F' I think) record is dubious.



    To a post about Moscow's warmest winter you reply that polar regions have had one of their coldest - implying you are talking about the Arctic winter. But, no, you mean a single dubious cold record and and a few cold days in one place. A few days is a winter?


    Lets be clear, the Arctic has not had one of it's colder winters. Period.

    I didn't make any claim.
    Record high temperatures = Global warming
    Record low temperatures = Weather


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Danno wrote: »
    A single winter is climate now? :rolleyes:


    I didn't claim it was.


    I'm trying to get the facts straight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Nabber wrote: »
    I didn't make any claim.


    It's difficult to reply to unattributed quotes. Can you please provide sources so I can figure out who you claimed said what.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    It has been mild in a lot of places alright, Toronto has just finished its 10th mildest winter out of the 180 in my study. When the urban heat island is factored in (those tables still to come) I think it will drop back to about 15th as some of the ones it edged out were a long time ago and were not beaten by even half the magnitude of the heat island (for example 1889-90 will probably move back ahead of this winter in that more relevant comparison).

    Where I live, the temperatures have been fairly close to average and snowfall about half to two-thirds of normal. We are up high enough in the mountains that any warming trend is hard to spot since a bit of additional warmth is often likely to generate more precipitation, but this past winter has been relatively dry as well. Nowhere near record-breaking here though, just a touch above average.

    The eastern U.S. had a mild winter, the desert southwest was a bit below normal at times. This seemed to be a weaker and blander version of some past winters with a deep western trough and cut-off lows that bring unusual snowfalls to the southwest. There was one episode of that but it didn't really build up very much.

    If my theory that the circulation is influenced to some extent by the shifting magnetic field, then a lot of the discussions about trends will be pointless because the changes underway could lead to climate patterns we have not seen in modern times. I think this might become more apparent in 20-40 years from now, if the NMP continues to drift towards northeast Siberia. It would be a rather warm climatic influence to have the polar vortex trying to form more often in that region. Eastern Asia might turn colder but most other regions would probably see a warming influence from that. I wonder if the NMP was in that position during the MWP. Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland were all relatively warm in that era and it stands to reason that if the polar vortex distorts westward (I wouldn't expect it all to shift that way as I think this is a second-order influence) then southerly flow is encouraged in the Atlantic basin generally speaking.

    I am hopeful that some people will take some time to look over the material in that Toronto study and offer some thoughts about what they see. I have grown up with that information (the study uncovered some new information for me, but most of that stuff is as familiar to me as the CET or past Irish weather might be to some of you). I had partly lost touch with trends since we moved west in 1995, and this helped me to refocus on a subject that used to be the core of my research in the first decade or so.

    In this field, you can very easily suffer from data overload. I need to step back a bit from the enormous mass of data and do some creative analysis now. What can we learn from all this information? Maybe there are trends or tendencies that don't leap off the page. But I think it's hard to miss the fact that Toronto has always had quite a variable and dynamic climate that keeps going from extreme to extreme on a fairly regular basis. I don't see any real evidence that this is increasing. The high water mark for variability was probably the 1970s. The period around 1900 to 1920 was quite variable also. Winters seemed to be either/or with not many stuck in the middle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    posidonia wrote: »


    Ask questions!

    OK.

    Here is the global mean pressure map for the Winter season just gone:

    pppmap_mean_2020_16.png

    I have given my humble explanation about why this pattern was the way it was in an earlier post, so maybe now you could expand on that and tell me how much influence 'climate change' had on this pattern, so I and others can perhaps gain a better understanding of these little nuances.

    Thanks in advance.

    Patrick. XX

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    M.T.
    I was looking at those new 'reanalysis' maps on Wetterzentalie that you mentioned and they do just look more than a little bit off, especially regarding the Big Wind of 1839. No sign of the well documented warm front that proceeded the storm, and no sign of the storm itself. So one has to ask, what really is the point of these maps (or more specifically, the grib files) if they don't even input well documented data into them?

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    From: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/04/focus-coronavirus-shows-need-climate-law-says-eu-official-frans-timmermans
    “Even if the Eye of Sauron is on something else for a bit, the trajectory to 2050 will be clear,” he said, in a reference to the dark forces in the Lord of the Rings. “Because we discipline ourselves with the climate law.”


    Speaking to the Guardian and six other European newspapers shortly before the law was published, Timmermans said the proposal was revolutionary because all EU legislation would have to be in line with net zero emissions by the mid-century.

    This reads like a dictatorship is in the making.

    Notice how they also link in Coronavirus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    It has been mild in a lot of places alright, Toronto has just finished its 10th mildest winter out of the 180 in my study. When the urban heat island is factored in (those tables still to come) I think it will drop back to about 15th as some of the ones it edged out were a long time ago and were not beaten by even half the magnitude of the heat island (for example 1889-90 will probably move back ahead of this winter in that more relevant comparison).

    Where I live, the temperatures have been fairly close to average and snowfall about half to two-thirds of normal. We are up high enough in the mountains that any warming trend is hard to spot since a bit of additional warmth is often likely to generate more precipitation, but this past winter has been relatively dry as well. Nowhere near record-breaking here though, just a touch above average.

    The eastern U.S. had a mild winter, the desert southwest was a bit below normal at times. This seemed to be a weaker and blander version of some past winters with a deep western trough and cut-off lows that bring unusual snowfalls to the southwest. There was one episode of that but it didn't really build up very much.

    If my theory that the circulation is influenced to some extent by the shifting magnetic field, then a lot of the discussions about trends will be pointless because the changes underway could lead to climate patterns we have not seen in modern times. I think this might become more apparent in 20-40 years from now, if the NMP continues to drift towards northeast Siberia. It would be a rather warm climatic influence to have the polar vortex trying to form more often in that region. Eastern Asia might turn colder but most other regions would probably see a warming influence from that. I wonder if the NMP was in that position during the MWP. Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland were all relatively warm in that era and it stands to reason that if the polar vortex distorts westward (I wouldn't expect it all to shift that way as I think this is a second-order influence) then southerly flow is encouraged in the Atlantic basin generally speaking.

    I am hopeful that some people will take some time to look over the material in that Toronto study and offer some thoughts about what they see. I have grown up with that information (the study uncovered some new information for me, but most of that stuff is as familiar to me as the CET or past Irish weather might be to some of you). I had partly lost touch with trends since we moved west in 1995, and this helped me to refocus on a subject that used to be the core of my research in the first decade or so.

    In this field, you can very easily suffer from data overload. I need to step back a bit from the enormous mass of data and do some creative analysis now. What can we learn from all this information? Maybe there are trends or tendencies that don't leap off the page. But I think it's hard to miss the fact that Toronto has always had quite a variable and dynamic climate that keeps going from extreme to extreme on a fairly regular basis. I don't see any real evidence that this is increasing. The high water mark for variability was probably the 1970s. The period around 1900 to 1920 was quite variable also. Winters seemed to be either/or with not many stuck in the middle.

    What an amazing body of work that is, MT. It really should get published in a reputable journal. I've scanned through the Netweather thread but will go back and give it its due attention when I can.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Yeah, it's no big deal, just following the lead of the Hadley and UKMO people and trying to create a data base as similar to theirs as I can with my limited resources. From said data base we can talk facts and not opinions, that's the main point of it. But until I filter through those temperature files with the growing UHI deductions applied, to standardize the data, the comparisons are a bit skewed towards modern warming. It hasn't warmed up quite as much as this data base (without UHI correction) might lead one to believe.

    Just finished the daily precip records today, and halfway through the last (rather minor) task which is to list the significant dry spells. I already have that in my excel file so just checking them carefully. The checking process has caught a small number of errors which is good, I hope this data base will be of the highest quality that I can manage. It's something the Canadian weather service could and perhaps should have done and they may think they have done, but it's not in this accessible and comparative format.

    Until I went through the data from 1995 to 2019, I had no real idea how many of the old maximum records had stood up through all these end of days warm spells I hear about on the news, and in fact, other than about three notable four or five day warm spells they are in most cases still standing. March 2012 and September 2017 had some rather impressive bursts of record warmth, which I would compare to maybe March 1998 or December 1982 as times where a few records were quite noteworthy. But given the frequency of similar phenomena ever since the global warming of the late 19th century (no typo), I think we should expect a few of these episodes every decade. When they hit, they take out three or four records whether those were good ones or also rans.

    As to the rain and snow records, I have now seen weather maps for every record precipitation event and close call, and while the detail is overwhelming, the background theme seems to be that the northern hemisphere used to be in the tail end of the LIA and now it isn't.

    If that's my fault I will stop driving my car.


This discussion has been closed.
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