Mercury overtakes Jupiter

oriel36 · 06-01-2020 4:24pm

This is all for people who can appreciate the split perspectives which divide the faster moving planets from the slower moving planets in their particular orbital 'lanes' as seen from the orbital motion of the Earth in between these faster and slower moving planets.

The illusory loops vs the actual loops of the faster and slower moving planets stand on their own for people who make normal judgments of motions including the use of racetrack or traffic roundabout analogies to help students understand.

https://www.popastro.com/images/planetary/observations/Venus-July%202010-January%202012.jpg

Considering that it has been 500 years since direct/retrograde perspectives have been touched and already most people can discern the actual loop of Venus and Mercury using phase/luminosity variations orchestrating their position and motion to a slower moving Earth in an outer lane, people should take their time appreciating what is happening presently close to the central/stationary Sun and appreciated using a satellite tracking with the Earth -

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

The illusory loops of the slower moving planets don't show phases or a full set because their bright side always faces the Earth so are brightest when the Earth and the slower planets at the moment the Earth overtakes that planet -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap160915.html

The faster moving Venus and Mercury are darkness at the centre of retrogrades as they pass between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth further out -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7U5VbasKr4

This is not for everyone, it is for those who can make sense of 21st century imaging to expand their appreciation of their solar system neighbourhood. I don't mind those who desperately are looking for an angle to maintain late 17th century Royal Society RA/Dec observing but such celestial sphere perspectives are only useful for predicting the times of astronomical events.

There are no illusory direct/retrograde loops of Venus and Mercury as phases representing orbital motion of those planets and the central Sun prohibit any such monstrosity regardless of what observers imagine otherwise. If these people want to diminish themselves instead of participating in a new an exciting project then so be it, I am not going to chase them nor anyone else.

ps200306 · 06-01-2020 5:32pm

oriel36 wrote: »

The illusory loops vs the actual loops of the faster and slower moving planets stand on their own...

I just showed you that Mercury is about to make one of those illusory loops against the stars, quite separate from its actual loop around the Sun. You can believe it or disbelieve it, but just ignoring it makes you look obsessed. How about a one sentence answer for once -- do you accept that Mercury is going to perform an illusory retrograde loop against the stars next month or do you not?

oriel36 wrote: »

The illusory loops vs the actual loops of the The faster moving Venus and Mercury are [in] darkness at the centre of retrogrades as they pass between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth further out

Wrong again. As you presumably know, not every inferior conjunction is a transit which means an inferior planet can remain partly illuminated throughout its retrograde. At it's next inferior conjunction Mercury will pass almost four degrees above the ecliptic, leaving it 1% illuminated and at magnitude 5.3. Of course it will be too close to the Sun to have any chance of seeing it from Earth, but it means it won't disappear from SOHO's view.

oriel36 wrote: »

There are no illusory direct/retrograde loops of Venus and Mercury as phases representing orbital motion of those planets and the central Sun prohibit any such monstrosity regardless of what observers imagine otherwise.

You mean like this loop:

Sorry to burst your bubble but you better get used to it -- it's happening next month at a planet near you.

oriel36 wrote: »

I don't mind those who desperately are looking for an angle to maintain late 17th century Royal Society RA/Dec observing but such celestial sphere perspectives are only useful for predicting the times of astronomical events.

Sorry I had to use medieval software to prove you wrong. :pac:

oriel36 · 06-01-2020 5:56pm

ps200306 wrote: »

I just showed you that Mercury is about to make one of those illusory loops against the stars, quite separate from its actual loop around the Sun. You can believe it or disbelieve it, but just ignoring it makes you look obsessed. How about a one sentence answer for once -- do you accept that Mercury is going to perform an illusory retrograde loop against the stars next month or do you not?

You don't seem to appreciate that there is no competition and I am not asking how you are going to resolve the actual loop or circuit of Mercury and Venus without displacing the Sun at the centre of their faster motions in smaller circumferences as seen from a slower moving Earth in a large circumference.

You end up challenging Galileo in this case who recognised the transition from morning to evening appearance and the role of the phases in affirming their motion around the Sun -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

"But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances." Galileo

That is an evening appearance of Venus where it is in direct motion as it emerges from behind the Sun until its swings back in and starts to move in retrograde motion as it moves between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth.

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Mercury will soon transition to an evening appearance and to the left and behind the Sun as seen from a slower moving Earth so here we have a forum that is either silent or contending with the telescopic insight of Galileo.

These great astronomers didn't have a satellite tracking with the Earth's orbital motion that can peer towards the centre of the solar system so no fault can be placed at their feet for not recognising the alterations necessary to explain the Earth's orbital inputs and the central Sun to account for the direct/retrograde motions of Venus and Mercury.

I shrug, if Galileo's demonstration of phases can't survive as a visual affirmation of heliocentric motion then I don't feel slighted or insulted. Galileo did say -

“You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself.” Galileo

ps200306 · 06-01-2020 6:59pm

oriel36 wrote: »

That is an evening appearance of Venus where it is in direct motion as it emerges from behind the Sun until its swings back in and starts to move in retrograde motion as it moves between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth.

So you continue to maintain that an inferior planet is in retrograde motion once it "swings back in", i.e. toward and in front of the Sun from greatest eastern elongation.

Even though it is demonstrably still moving west against the stars in direct motion at that point and for some considerable time afterward, and I've given you multiple simulations as well as the wherewithal to prove it for yourself.

Ok. Your ignorance is truly invincible. I will quit flogging a dead horse.

oriel36 · 06-01-2020 10:14pm

ps200306 wrote: »

Ok. Your ignorance is truly invincible. I will quit flogging a dead horse.

Considering that Galileo used the phases of Venus to demonstrate the circuit of Venus in relation to the Sun and could distinguish between the beginning and end of morning appearances in terms of luminosity and size variations, his view of a central Sun and the actual loop of Venus remains a credit and he rightfully praised Copernicus for any objection as to why the luminosity of Venus remains roughly the same while size increases -

"But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances.

SAGR. Oh Nicholas Copernicus, what a pleasure it would have been for you to see this part of your system confirmed by so clear an experiment!

SALV. Yes, but how much less would his sublime intellect be celebrated among the learned! For as I said before, we may see that with reason as his guide he resolutely continued to affirm what sensible experience seemed to contradict. I cannot get over my amazement that he was constantly willing to persist in saying that Venus might go around the sun and be more than six times as far from us at one time than at other times as at another, and still look always equal, when it should have appeared forty times larger." Galileo

I don't have to fret,at least I have full appreciation of the perspective as contemporary imaging shows the size variations of Venus when it is behind the Sun and further from us as opposed when it turns in front of the Sun and overtakes us while maintaining more or less the same luminosity -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

As that is an evening appearance as Venus is to the right of the Sun, it is easy enough to identify which stage the phase is in accordance with its position and that of the Earth presently -

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

It is also wonderful as we see it out in the open as it is far enough away from the glare of the central Sun to be seen.

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

The grainy images as you call them present a mirror to observers as they tell you if you are an astronomer or not in the truest sense of the title.It is therefore a person thing that is put out there for those who enjoy what they are seeing.

People who try to make astronomy small only make themselves small whether in silence or unjust objections.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 2:10am

Mercury in retrograde around Ancha (θ-Aqr) from 17-Feb to 10-Mar-2020. Did you know the Chinese called Ancha "the second star of weeping"?

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 9:01am

What the telescope represented for Galileo and looking outward and away from the central Sun, the imaging from a satellite tracking with the Earth's orbital motion and looking inwards towards the central Sun should mean for observers today. Galileo's astronomy was from twilight to dawn whereas today, a total perspective between day and night is completed.

It means that just as Galileo could see Jupiter's satellites orbit their parent star, we can now see the faster moving planets with smaller circumferences than the slower moving Earth further out, run their back and forth motions behind and in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZEgoJasPQ&t=63s

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Galileo extended the original heliocentric astronomy in a new way just as the satellite imaging is the 21st century equivalent of extending astronomy in a new way.

The same objections exist today as back then which can be surprising given all the tools available on the internet to help observers create a complete picture where once half (between dawn and twilight) was missing. Galileo did appeal to academics whereas I rely solely on anyone with a genuine love of astronomy as a human cultural discipline I have come to understand it really is. Galileo was wasting his time for the same reasons some today avoid putting the satellite imaging in context -

"My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? Truly, just as the asp stops its ears, so do these philosophers shut their eyes to the light of truth " Galileo

The point here is for observers is don't wait for academics to change but join a project to explain what is obvious is a clear and considerate way for students. Once again, there is no way of knowing who can or cannot appreciate what is in front of them and in all likelihood those people have no idea they are good at astronomy as it was originally practiced.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 9:23am

oriel36 wrote: »

...join a project to explain what is obvious is a clear and considerate way for students.

If you tell students that Mercury is in retrograde whenever it is travelling left to right across the Sun, you are setting them up to fail -- hardly considerate.

Mercury in retrograde around Ancha (θ-Aqr) from 17-Feb to 10-Mar-2020, but not throughout 10-Feb to 27-Mar between greatest elongations:

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 9:38am

It is much easier to leave the perspectives for a while as a forum that can't affirm the older perspective of Galileo where phases dictate the circuits of the faster moving Venus and Mercury in their actual loops of the Sun shown by an astrophotographer from July 2010 to January 2012 -

https://www.popastro.com/images/planetary/observations/Venus-July%202010-January%202012.jpg

Until Venus enters the C3 camera moving in retrograde motion between the stationary and central Sun and the slower moving Earth, observers here can ask themselves if they are astronomers or just magnification and identification hobbyists but in truth, all this is for people who can appreciate how satellite imaging completes a perspective where half has been missing.

What Galileo saw as the motions of Jupiter's satellites around their parent planet can now be applied to the motions of the faster planets around our parent star as seen from a slower moving Earth further out (using a tracking satellite -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZEgoJasPQ&t=63s

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

It is not only a matter of personal achievement and talent, it is also personal pride in our race.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 10:07am

oriel36 wrote: »

Until Venus enters the C3 camera moving in retrograde motion between the stationary and central Sun and the slower moving Earth, observers here can ask themselves if they are astronomers or just magnification and identification hobbyists but in truth, all this is for people who can appreciate how satellite imaging completes a perspective where half has been missing.

You may want to play magnification hobbyist yourself for a moment. Compared to your favourite image of Venus's orbit, here is the field of view of the SOHO/LASCO C3 coronagraph. Do you really think this arrow slit provides the most complete perspective on planetary motion?

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 10:30am

ps200306 wrote: »

You may want to play magnification hobbyist yourself for a moment. Compared to your favourite image of Venus's orbit, here is the field of view of the SOHO/LASCO C3 coronagraph. Do you really think this arrow slit provides the most complete perspective on planetary motion?

You should be proud of your very Ulster Unionist like stance when it comes to protecting English RA/Dec modeling traditions but it comes at a price of all the other astronomical traditions that preceded the celestial sphere modeling and today where a satellite completes an astronomical picture from dawn to twilight in creating permanent solar eclipse conditions -

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Your view this time around is interesting at least but when shown the actual speeds of planets within that observational corridor, observers can make sense of the motions of Mercury presently in respect to it motion to the central Sun, the slower moving Earth and the even slower moving Jupiter and Saturn.

I do know if you speak for the rest in this forum and I don't much care, the idea is that I can do these things because I simply can and students will love it. So, you have Venus go into direct/retrograde motion around a distant star and now you retreat to Venus in direct/retrograde motion around our central Sun over and extended period and that is just chasing an undisciplined person.

I suggest you keep that image when Venus comes into view within a number of months or I can borrow it for explaining how Venus moves between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth but also quicker than the change in position of the stars from left to right of the Sun.

brav · 07-01-2020 10:50am

oriel36 / gkell11 / GeraldKelleher

When you used to confine yourself to ramblings in one thread it was easier to ignore you but you are posting all over place lately in the same style of copying and pasting snippets that read more like snippets from a religious text rather than anything based on modern science and learning.
There is nothing wrong with this in itself, we can all believe in what we would like, but calling someone an Ulster Unionist for believing in science is a bit of a stretch.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 10:55am

oriel36 wrote: »

I suggest you keep that image when Venus comes into view within a number of months or I can borrow it for explaining how Venus moves between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth but also quicker than the change in position of the stars from left to right of the Sun.

Unfortunately for your students, Venus will not be moving quicker than the stars from left to right of the Sun. Oh, it will while you are staring through your arrow slit, but you and your students will be completely ignorant of the change that occurs from direct to retrograde outside those bounds. Unfortunately for your students, you don't even believe in it let alone have the knowledge to explain it. And judging by your rejection of multiple promptings here, you're determined to remain ignorant of it.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 11:04am

brav wrote: »

oriel36 / gkell11 / GeraldKelleher

When you used to confine yourself to ramblings in one thread it was easier to ignore you but you are posting all over place lately in the same style of copying and pasting snippets that read more like snippets from a religious text rather than anything based on modern science and learning.
There is nothing wrong with this in itself, we can all believe in what we would like, but calling someone an Ulster Unionist for believing in science is a bit of a stretch.

It wasn't an insult, Ulster Unionist are insular to English traditions and RA/Dec modeling emerged from the equatorial coordinate system of Flamsteed where Newton took hold of it and sent its usefulness for astronomical predictions and sent it in the direction of experimental predictions.

It worked for centuries until presently when RA/Dec software emerged and practitioners start to model Earth sciences like the seasons using a wandering RA/Dec Sun and a truly awful Earth with a zero degree axial inclination , hideous beyond words -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE&t=15s

It was always for those who can make sense of events as a satellite looks towards the central solar system where the faster moving planets move in smaller circuits so whether you think them ramblings, it is only that you lack the perceptive qualities all astronomers have -

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Galileo complained that academics refused to look through the telescope so no big surprise that the same people today try their best to diminish what a satellite can do.

It is an unpleasant experience encountering the new RA/Dec software modeling bunch for the same reason people are exasperated with Ulster Unionist positions as their views are blinkered, narrow, unproductive and unchanging but people can judge for themselves by how they feel and react.

" I know; such men do not deduce their conclusion from its premises or
establish it by reason, but they accommodate (I should have said
discommode and distort) the premises and reasons to a conclusion which
for them is already established and nailed down. No good can come of
dealing with such people, especially to the extent that their company
may be not only unpleasant but dangerous." Galileo

The imaging speaks for itself so the project is to make it more accessible to a wider audience. The celestial sphere enthusiasts can attack and complain all they like but nothing can stop the emergence of the other half of astronomy hidden by the light of the Sun.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 11:16am

ps200306 wrote: »

Unfortunately for your students, Venus will not be moving quicker than the stars from left to right of the Sun. Oh, it will while you are staring through your arrow slit, but you and your students will be completely ignorant of the change that occurs from direct to retrograde outside those bounds. Unfortunately for your students, you don't even believe in it let alone have the knowledge to explain it. And judging by your rejection of multiple promptings here, you're determined to remain ignorant of it.

Look, the thread is not meant to create such venom and if you decide to really put me to task then find out what you think are the weak points. It is not a battle to the end but a new way to appreciate the solar system neighbourhood and appeals to space age people with space age ideas.

Towards the end of October and the beginning of November 2002 Venus passes between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth where Venus moves faster than the change in the position of stars for reasons repeated here often (retrograde motion) while Mercury is simultaneously travelling in the opposite direction behind the Sun and in direct motion against the background stars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Done0Udbxbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV4Hj3PsBnI

If people can't enjoy the spectacle for what it is with all the moving components then there is nothing I could or would do about that and further objections are unhelpful as all that matters is enjoyment made possible by an orbiting satellite. If you don't think the visual presentation is not beautiful or wonderful then you are entitled to that.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 11:24am

brav wrote: »

... calling someone an Ulster Unionist for believing in science is a bit of a stretch.

Have to admit I rolled around laughing at that one.

oriel36 wrote: »

You should be proud of your very Ulster Unionist like stance when it comes to protecting English RA/Dec modeling traditions but it comes at a price of all the other astronomical traditions that preceded the celestial sphere modeling ...

LOL. I admit to having difficulty going back before 8th century BC Babylon. That's where we had the beginnings of equatorial coordinates, although it didn't come to proper expression until classical Greek antiquity.

The Historical Development of Celestial Coordinate Systems by Edgar W. Woolard

Few technical terms of astronomy are as familiar and as commonly used as "Right Ascension" and "Declination". These quantities are now the fundamental co-ordinates by means of which the positions of the heavenly bodies are usually specified, and in terms of which exact descriptions of celestial phenomena are expressed.

It is not immediately obvious, however, why these particular technical terms should have been adopted as the names of the quantities which they denote, nor is an adequate explanation readily found in modern textbooks or dictionaries; and it should therefore be of interest to trace their origin and derivation. It happens that the history of these terms is of special interest, because they embody the evolution of some of the most fundamental astronomical concepts, an in them survives the impress of some of the earliest ancient viewpoints and modes of thought.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 11:35am

oriel36 wrote: »

Look, the thread is not meant to create such venom and if you decide to really put me to task then find out what you think are the weak points. It is not a battle to the end but a new way to appreciate the solar system neighbourhood and appeals to space age people with space age ideas.

Ok, fair point which I will treat seriously. The SOHO views are indeed very amazing, beautiful, and educational.

The entire dispute here boils down to a very simple point. You insist on referring to retrograde motion of an inferior planet as the entire period during which it passes left-to-right in front of the Sun. You imply that the planet "moves faster than the change in position of the stars" and that this is the case between greatest eastern and western elongation, e.g. for the "front half" of that orbit of Venus you are fond of posting.

That's wrong. When Venus (or Mercury) swings back in toward the Sun, it is still moving in direct motion with respect to the stars. In the Sun-centred view it is moving slower than the stars. The period of retrograde is a subset of the period between greatest elongations. The reason why can be easily seen in an animation I provided and various other simulations also mentioned.

This could all be treated as an innocent mistake if you weren't so dogmatic in just posting the same stuff over and over again in response to corrections. That makes it hard not to treat as a joke, though no (serious :pac:) disrespect is intended.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 11:51am

ps200306 wrote: »

LOL. I admit to having difficulty going back before 8th century BC Babylon. That's where we had the beginnings of equatorial coordinates, although it didn't come to proper expression until classical Greek antiquity.

RA/Dec modeling began when John Flamsteed decided to bypass the central Sun for rotation along with its cause of the day/night cycle and appeal to stellar circumpolar motion and a celestial sphere instead -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

"... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
isochronical[constant] ... " Flamsteed to Moore

That is the foundations of the clockwork solar system and RA/Dec modeling where even the links between one complete rotation and the Earth science of the day/night cycle was lost -

" It is a fact not generally known that,owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time,the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are 24 hour days in the year" NASA /Harvard

The hideous pivoting circle of illumination and an Earth with a zero degree inclination is just another extension the early 20th century version applied by Ra/Dec modelers to astronomy, Earth sciences and the Earth itself.

Clocks and RA/Dec where the Sun wanders against the background stars has only existed since the late 17th century English hijacked astronomy and planetary motions to suit their mechanical solar system -

http://community.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/users/solar_year.gif

The people objecting lack gentlemen behavior so even requesting to leave things be for a while goes unheeded. There is a large volume of new and old information in this thread for a new project and not to waste time on attacking or defending the isolated bunch of Royal Society academics. I will repost my previous message as the last as I began this thread with the intention for those who can find magnificence in satellite imaging .

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 11:53am

Towards the end of October and the beginning of November 2002 Venus passes between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth where Venus moves faster than the change in the position of stars for reasons repeated here often (retrograde motion) while Mercury is simultaneously travelling in the opposite direction behind the Sun and in direct motion against the background stars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Done0Udbxbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV4Hj3PsBnI

If people can't enjoy the spectacle for what it is with all the moving components then there is nothing I could or would do about that and further objections are unhelpful as all that matters is enjoyment made possible by an orbiting satellite. If you don't think the visual presentation is not beautiful or wonderful then you are entitled to that view but it is a visual symphony that requires no further additional comment other than what was presented previously.

Of course the spectacle will suffer from grotesque graffiti as is the nature of some.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 12:21pm

ps200306 wrote: »

Ok, fair point which I will treat seriously. The SOHO views are indeed very amazing, beautiful, and educational.

This is for observers who are perhaps coming to see how the C3 camera completes the full perspective combining views as we look away from the central Sun between twilight and dawn with the new perspective where we can witness events close to the Sun normally hidden between dawn and twilight.

The person screaming about direct/retrogrades of Venus around a distant star early this morning has changed his view so perhaps he isn't like a die hard Unionist but more like a brexiteer politician.

If people have patience for that kind of 'brexiteer' behaviour then be my guest as it is particularly English in origin, at least from a certain section of that society and has a fervent following among the English electorate.

For everyone else they just get on filling in the narrow corridor where observations were once out of bounds while letting the astronomical equivalent of brexiteers spin their wheels. Exasperation is not a nice experience but that happens when a group fails to look at the larger perspectives offered by new approaches in a different world.

The post of the ps200306 contributor was written during my previous replies so this, I feel , needs addressing for my future contributions.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 1:53pm

oriel36 wrote: »

RA/Dec modeling began when John Flamsteed decided to bypass the central Sun for rotation along with its cause of the day/night cycle and appeal to stellar circumpolar motion and a celestial sphere instead

The Greeks used both ecliptic and equatorial measurements. It's true that -- for what should be completely obvious reasons -- RA and Dec took on much increased significance after the invention of the telescope, the equatorial mount, and accurate clocks. The terms themselves and their broad meanings go back to Ptolemy, and further back to Hipparchus and beyond -- probably at least to Eudoxus in the 4th c. BC.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1942PASP...54...77W

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 2:15pm

ps200306 wrote: »

The Greeks used both ecliptic and equatorial measurements. It's true that -- for what should be completely obvious reasons -- RA and Dec took on much increased significance after the invention of the telescope, the equatorial mount, and accurate clocks. The terms themselves and their broad meanings go back to Ptolemy, and further back to Hipparchus and beyond -- probably at least to Eudoxus in the 4th c. BC.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1942PASP...54...77W

You behaved less than a gentleman, after all, you had Venus in direct/retrograde motion around a distant star within the last 24 hours but probably saw the C3 time lapse in late October and early November 2002 where Venus moves faster than the change in position of the stars from left to right of the Sun while Mercury moves behind the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Done0Udbxbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV4Hj3PsBnI

Instead of being careful and taking your time, you should have recognised the useful contribution using the corridor where Venus is out of range of observers but not out of range for a satellite looking towards the central Sun.

This also means presently -

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

I know you won't stop as an astronomical version of a brexiteer but then again people move on to take more creative and productive perspectives regardless.

Thanks for showing the small corridor where viewing is out of bounds during the dawn to twilight observing when using orbital comparisons so at least one contribution did not go to waste -

https://www.popastro.com/images/planetary/observations/Venus-July%202010-January%202012.jpg

Considering direct/retrogrades haven't been touched in 500 years, have some dignity despite your engagements.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 2:30pm

I have literally no idea what you are rambling about. You seem to think I have made some concession. I have not. Your basic misconception about what retrograde motion means has not changed. As I said:

The entire dispute here boils down to a very simple point. You insist on referring to retrograde motion of an inferior planet as the entire period during which it passes left-to-right in front of the Sun. You imply that the planet "moves faster than the change in position of the stars" and that this is the case between greatest eastern and western elongation, e.g. for the "front half" of that orbit of Venus you are fond of posting.

That's wrong. When Venus (or Mercury) swings back in toward the Sun, it is still moving in direct motion with respect to the stars. In the Sun-centred view it is moving slower than the stars. The period of retrograde is a subset of the period between greatest elongations. The reason why can be easily seen in an animation I provided and various other simulations also mentioned.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 2:45pm

ps200306 wrote: »

I have literally no idea what you are rambling about. You seem to think I have made some concession. I have not. Your basic misconception about what retrograde motion means has not changed.

You have to be a gentleman first before you are an astronomer hence I wasn't looking for concessions and not even looking for the illusory direct/retrograde loops of Venus and Mercury where you have the faster Venus orbit a distant star.

I am looking for people of style who can insert the imaging of the C3 camera within the gap where observing is normally out of human observations -

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

https://www.popastro.com/images/planetary/observations/Venus-July%202010-January%202012.jpg

Always lovely, always wonderful and educational yet waiting for people of dignity and integrity to make the complete picture known to students. People who could easily put the entire visual narrative together don't come to this forum obviously so what does exist is really a waste of time.

Astronomy is in the hands of theorists and RA/Dec modelers which amounts to a high end academic welfare scam at the expense of astronomy and even genuine modeling. It may even work for a few decades to come and good luck to them, however, genuine people can still come to appreciate the split perspectives which distinguish the slower and faster moving planets from a moving Earth and a central Sun where one loop is illusory (slower moving ) planets and the other is actual with phases in attendance

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap160915.html

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploads/gallery/album_7/med_gallery_40_7_128459.jpg

It hardly feel like an Irish astronomical forum but then again there is an unhealthy allegiance to 17th century English celestial sphere modeling. If people can live like that then seriously - good luck to them but it sure ain't astronomy.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 3:53pm

Ok, it's been fun, but you are starting to sound more than a tad unstable and I don't want to be accused of pushing anyone off the deep end. Anyway, I have to attend an Orange Order march where we will hoist the RA/Dec flag, toast John Flamsteed, dance in retrograde around a bonfire while burning an effigy of Copernicus, and sing "The Star-Spangled Sash my Father Wore". :pac:

ThunderCat · 07-01-2020 4:11pm

ps200306 wrote: »

Ok, it's been fun, but you are starting to sound more than a tad unstable and I don't want to be accused of pushing anyone off the deep end. Anyway, I have to attend an Orange Order march where we will hoist the RA/Dec flag, toast John Flamsteed, dance in retrograde around a bonfire while burning an effigy of Copernicus, and sing "The Star-Spangled Sash my Father Wore". :pac:

That's Blockbusters.

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 4:52pm

ps200306 wrote: »

I just showed you that Mercury is about to make one of those illusory loops against the stars, quite separate from its actual loop around the Sun. You can believe it or disbelieve it, but just ignoring it makes you look obsessed. How about a one sentence answer for once -- do you accept that Mercury is going to perform an illusory retrograde loop against the stars next month or do you not?

Wrong again. As you presumably know, not every inferior conjunction is a transit which means an inferior planet can remain partly illuminated throughout its retrograde. At it's next inferior conjunction Mercury will pass almost four degrees above the ecliptic, leaving it 1% illuminated and at magnitude 5.3. Of course it will be too close to the Sun to have any chance of seeing it from Earth, but it means it won't disappear from SOHO's view.

You mean like this loop:

Sorry to burst your bubble but you better get used to it -- it's happening next month at a planet near you.

Sorry I had to use medieval software to prove you wrong. :pac:

Considering that it is less than 24 hours since you swore Venus didn't move faster than the change in position of the stars, I would say you are more a brexiteer politician than a hapless unionist but they again the forum represents the equivalent of a brexiteer electorate in not being able to appreciate the deficiencies in the original heliocentric framework and how 21st century imaging from a satellite corrects them. In fact they haven't shown anything in terms of liking what satellite imaging can do or react with dismay at what the English modelers did to astronomy.

There are wonderful and decent British politicians who took a wider view as do most people in Ireland and Europe but if a group insists it must stick with British political and academic traditions, it is best to let them at it. The astronomical equivalent are the Royal Society clockwork solar system modelers and their new emanation as RA/Dec software enthusiasts who manipulate imaging into Frankenstein creations.

I can definitely say that apart from the missing component supplied by the orbiting satellite in showing what happens presently as observers look towards the inner solar system is the missing element of integrity, honesty and dignity, something that neither be bought or taught. The brexiteer politicians behave like snakes and likewise their academic equivalent.

Like all reasonable people the only thing is to walk away and leave them in their wretched condition until perhaps some come to their senses.

ps200306 · 07-01-2020 5:42pm

oriel36 wrote: »

Considering that it is less than 24 hours since you swore Venus didn't move faster than the change in position of the stars...

Again, I've no idea what you are on about. Venus goes faster when it is in retrograde, slower when it is in direct motion. The thing you're confused about is that it can be either fast or slower and still be moving left-to-right across the Sun (though it should be obvious when you think about it).

oriel36 · 07-01-2020 6:31pm

Towards the end of October and the beginning of November 2002 Venus passes between the stationary Sun and the slower moving Earth where Venus moves faster than the change in the position of stars for reasons repeated here often (retrograde motion) while Mercury is simultaneously travelling in the opposite direction behind the Sun and in direct motion against the background stars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Done0Udbxbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV4Hj3PsBnI

If people can't enjoy the spectacle for what it is with all the moving components then there is nothing I could or would do about that and further objections are unhelpful as all that matters is enjoyment made possible by an orbiting satellite. If you don't think the visual presentation is not beautiful or wonderful then you are entitled to that view but it is a visual symphony that requires no further additional comment other than what was presented previously.

Esel · 07-01-2020 8:09pm

I have switched from popcorn to chewing gum at this stage. Mad stuff in a serious scientific forum!

Mercury overtakes Jupiter

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