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25-10-2017, 15:24   #1
Fox_In_Socks
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Jordan Peterson

I've looked at a few of his lectures on youtube and what got me into watching him, were the "sort yourself out and clean your room!" snippets of self-help, that had been isolated from some of his lectures where he's diverted on a tangent and tells his audience how to deal with someone who needs structure in their lives to get them going again.

I like him and how articulate he is, how many of the ideas he has talked about, I would have found stupid in the past but compelling now. Like, the idea of the archetypes (which I dismissed as fanciful when I tried to read Jung), his rants about where nihilism and lack of meaning comes from (which I can relate to) and how intolerance of free speech could give rise to totalitarianism.

I'm not a philosophy student and I know little enough in any depth about it, but can anyone point out some of the bad points and shortcomings his ideas have?

Last edited by Black Swan; 25-03-2019 at 15:51.
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26-10-2017, 07:21   #2
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I'm not a philosophy student and I know little enough in any depth about it, but can anyone point out some of the bad points and shortcomings his ideas have?
Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with the clinical psychology and philosophy of Jordan Peterson. Towards becoming a bit more familiar I recently watched the "Peterson Debate on Bill C-16 19th Nov 2016." I am assuming that this is the Peterson you wish to discuss in the video? If I am in error, please clarify.

Rather than discuss the contents of Bill C-16, let's focus on the content of Peterson's statements about gender. Peterson opened the debate claiming that there were deep, pronounced differences between genders in terms of intellect and creativity. Men were higher in intellect, and women were higher in esthetics, consequently men read more nonfiction and women read more fiction. He claimed that this gender divide was "natural," not as a social construction, but rather biological.

The profound intellectual gender difference claims made by Peterson appeared as givens, and not debatable. His claims were not stated consistent with the scientific method, where empirical results from the analysis of data "suggest," and are not "givens" or immutable truths. So long as data continues to support these suggestions, and not be refuted by contrary evidence, they continue to be held, but with caution.

I will have to read the recent scholarly literature and what empirical studies "suggest" about intellectual differences by gender. When time permits I will. Certainly those reading these posts may conduct their review and post their findings.
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19-11-2017, 21:34   #3
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People are quick to knock him at the moment because it's fashionable, also, for some weird reason he's been referred to as Alt right when he's clearly an old school liberal. On that matter, I'd advise you to watch some more of his stuff and make up your own mind. His bitchy resting face is a running joke too. But none of these are answering your question.

Look, I think he's very copped on, and brave and I'm no genius so knocking him would be a futile exercise in intellectual vanity on my part, but one of his weaknesses is also one of his strengths. He's very honest about when he is still figuring out where he stands on matters but isn't quiet sure. I like that, it has both an intellectual honesty, but also it's the attitude of a confident person who thinks it's okay to not have everything figured out just yet.
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20-11-2017, 20:17   #4
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Well, from the lectures I’ve seen, he states that in terms of IQ, the genders are equal but the standard deviations of each is different. They average out in each case but there is a greater stretching of male intelligence. So a greater amount of below average intelligence/learning difficulties and then at the other end, more genius level types.

Deary, Ian J.; Irwing, Paul; Der, Geoff; Bates, Timothy C. (2007). "Brother–sister differences in the g factor in intelligence: Analysis of full, opposite-sex siblings from the NLSY1979". Intelligence. 35 (5): 451–6.

I think he has a point with the recent trend of trying to make everything into a social construct. For instance, if a woman is breastfeeding her child and she lactates spontaneously when her child cries in a different room (which I’ve been told about by a friend of mine), is the description of her as a mother a social construction? What term should I use if she self identifies as a father? Is father or mother appropriate?
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20-11-2017, 23:00   #5
 
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Originally Posted by Black Swan View Post
Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with the clinical psychology and philosophy of Jordan Peterson. Towards becoming a bit more familiar I recently watched the "Peterson Debate on Bill C-16 19th Nov 2016." I am assuming that this is the Peterson you wish to discuss in the video? If I am in error, please clarify.

Rather than discuss the contents of Bill C-16, let's focus on the content of Peterson's statements about gender. Peterson opened the debate claiming that there were deep, pronounced differences between genders in terms of intellect and creativity. Men were higher in intellect, and women were higher in esthetics, consequently men read more nonfiction and women read more fiction. He claimed that this gender divide was "natural," not as a social construction, but rather biological.

The profound intellectual gender difference claims made by Peterson appeared as givens, and not debatable. His claims were not stated consistent with the scientific method, where empirical results from the analysis of data "suggest," and are not "givens" or immutable truths. So long as data continues to support these suggestions, and not be refuted by contrary evidence, they continue to be held, but with caution.

I will have to read the recent scholarly literature and what empirical studies "suggest" about intellectual differences by gender. When time permits I will. Certainly those reading these posts may conduct their review and post their findings.
It depends on how you ultimately define intellect. Men and women have slightly different brains but over a material and significant sample size you will tend to find that those differences are negligible but generally you would also find that in IQ tests more men would feature at both the bottom and top than women. A lot of problem is the standard of social and humanities studies into this topic are generally biased.
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21-11-2017, 11:45   #6
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People are quick to knock him at the moment because it's fashionable
Never reviewed Peterson's work until Fox_In_Socks opened this OP in Philosophy, so what's "fashionable" was moot in regards to my reply. Furthermore, I addressed Peterson from a scientific method standpoint, and not philosophical, and found him to be lacking accordingly.

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Well, from the lectures I’ve seen, he states that in terms of IQ, the genders are equal but the standard deviations of each is different. They average out in each case but there is a greater stretching of male intelligence. So a greater amount of below average intelligence/learning difficulties and then at the other end, more genius level types.
What do the typical IQ tests measure (e.g., WAIS; WISC; WPPSI; WJ; DAS; SB5; Otis-Lennon). If we treat the IQ test as an independent variable, and performance outcomes as dependent, what hypothesis has been most often suggested in the scholarly empirical literature? HR: The higher the IQ, the higher the future academic performance.

If this HR was both valid and reliable, should the empirical evidence suggest that if males score higher IQs than females, they should exceed female higher education enrollments and degrees; i.e., evidence higher academic performance?

In the United States there were about 20.4 million students enrolled in colleges and universities fall 2017. Females accounted for the majority with about 11.5 million (56.4%) compared to 8.9 million males (43.6%) per the National Center for Education Statistics. What does this suggest regarding "academic performance" by gender?

Bachelor degrees awarded may suggest yet another question regarding academic performance by gender historically. During the 1949-50 academic year 76.1% of college and university enrolled males earned a 4-year degree compared with only 23.9% of females enrolled per Statista.com. There was a dramatic shift by gender when comparing the 2016-17 academic year with 1949-50 graduations. In 2016-17 there were 57.15% females graduating with 4-year degrees compared with 42.85% males. Makes me wonder if there may or may not be some evidence suggesting "behavioural styles" of different time periods by gender in US history as opposed to intelligence by gender?

Does more recent history suggest a small be significant shift by gender in academic achievement by the number of doctorate degrees awarded in the US? During the 2004-2005 academic year males received 50.1% of doctors degrees compared with females receiving 49.9%, suggesting a somewhat equal balance between genders for this highest degree (i.e., academic achievement), per the National Center for Education Statistics. Yet when compared with the 2014-15 academic year females were awarded 52.4% of doctorates while males received 47.6%.

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It depends on how you ultimately define intellect.
How concept intelligence has been measured has been a major debate over past decades. Variable IQ may represent one independent measure, among a host of measures for dependent variable measures such as intelligent performance outcomes. Philosophically and methodologically (i.e. Deconstruction), Jacques Derrida cautioned us about oversimplifying natural phenomena. Methinks that relying only on IQ as the one independent measure exemplifies such oversimplifications in research and subsequent suggestions regarding gender differences.

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Men and women have slightly different brains but over a material and significant sample size you will tend to find that those differences are negligible
Hutt, C (1978) years ago in Biological bases of psychological sex differences, Am J Dis Child. 1978 Feb;132(2):170-7, suggested that sexual differentiation represented significant physiological and sensory-perceptual differences between males and females (i.e., nature; heredity), and these differences evolved over millions of years. She also suggested that these natural preexisting differences affected the salience of environmental factors for the two sexes (i.e., nurture), and that the observed "behavioral styles" were thus consequences of the transaction between environment and natural predispositions.

One additional question that emerges from this mention of behavioural styles was the exhibition of concept intelligence between sexes, and if style affected both the IQ definition and measurement, and may in turn confound both the validity and reliability of measurement?

Approaching 4AM Pacific I am uncertain what all this may mean, or if problematic intelligence definitions, or questionable IQ measurements, or changing gender enrollment and graduation statistics suggest anything, but I am a bit doubtful of Peterson's claim that "Men were higher in intellect" than women. Odds are I may have made a few logical errors when posting, but such errors failed to keep me from yawning (from over work and lack of sleep).

Last edited by Black Swan; 21-11-2017 at 11:59.
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21-11-2017, 16:55   #7
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Hello Black Swan, just read your reply there, wasn't commenting on you at all, it was with regard to feedback I've seen on other forums, I was answering the OP in case they were reading loads of derogatory remarks which I've noticed on youtube especially in the last couple of months.
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09-12-2017, 22:42   #8
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TO Reply: I take on board what you say about him not referencing where he’s getting what he says are facts.

And I totally agree with regard to the evidence of women outperforming men in every stage of education.

Maybe it’s my tendency towards getting enthusiastic about someone who I find articulate and an authority figure who seems to be able to make sense of things or intérprete things in a way that I can’t. Maybe if I watch these videos, then it means that I think I am smart or informed. I haven’t done the required reading of Piaget, Nietzsche, Solzhenitsyn, Kirkigaard etc because a lot of the time, I’m bored or unable to take it in. Or lazy.

And I can’t make sense of statistics so if someone references a study, then I don’t know whether it’s valid or not cause I can’t get my head around them. So I rely on experts to do this for me and tell me the outcome. So I get caught up on someone like Peterson who is compelling to listen to, and then others like Black swan point out his shortcomings
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13-12-2017, 16:24   #9
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One additional question that emerges from this mention of behavioural styles was the exhibition of concept intelligence between sexes, and if style affected both the IQ definition and measurement, and may in turn confound both the validity and reliability of measurement?
Does Peterson control for different male and female behavioral styles when assessing gender intelligence?
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14-12-2017, 18:46   #10
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So I get caught up on someone like Peterson who is compelling to listen to, and then others like Black swan point out his shortcomings
I would be cautious about accepting someone's point of view based upon their video presentation of self, including eloquent speaking skills. Just because they look the look, talk the talk, and walk the walk may or may not suggest that they are selling snake oil (i.e., a cleverly fashioned and popular view of human behavior, which may be misleading, and in some cases spurious).

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Does Peterson control for different male and female behavioral styles when assessing gender intelligence?
Peterson appears to be caught up in 1950's Ozzie & Harriet gender stereotyping (i.e., Men were higher in intellect, and women were higher in esthetics). He then attempts to find support for his outdated views by cherry picking from recent empirical studies those suggestions that support his views, and ignoring contrary evidence, thereby exhibiting confirmation bias.
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17-12-2017, 15:35   #11
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Peterson's apparent gender bias. Overshadowed his message.
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20-12-2017, 22:05   #12
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Peterson often fails to define a concept that he talks about, often assuming that everyone knows what he means, as a given. For example, the Peterson video "The Curse of Creativity" assumes such, without a specific definition of what he is talking about. Does everyone know and share the identical definition of what "creativity" is, and do they nod their heads as if there is universal understanding of this concept?
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17-01-2018, 09:43   #13
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Peterson's videos may be popular, but popularity does not ensure validity and reliability.
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19-01-2018, 23:05   #14
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Peterson's videos may be popular, but popularity does not ensure validity and reliability.
The philosophy of "common sense?"
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23-01-2018, 04:05   #15
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The philosophy of "common sense?"
Is "common sense" an oxymoron?
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