Mars by 2020?

Fathom · 21-08-2017 3:05am

Interesting Zimmerman study. Advocates more privatization of NASA. I'm for free market, but... Capitalization may not be the silver bullet to eliminate waste in NASA or Mars exploration. There have been numerous and historic cost overruns in private sector US Military Industrial Complex. Not sure of a solution.

Black Swan · 21-08-2017 4:54pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Save time and money by using new machining methods and 3D printing and things like friction welding instead of rivets.

3D printing applications have been expanding rapidly in the States, which in turn could be used to reduce costs and expedite parts for Mars exploration equipment.

Rubecula · 22-08-2017 5:35pm

Black Swan wrote: »

3D printing applications have been expanding rapidly in the States, which in turn could be used to reduce costs and expedite parts for Mars exploration equipment.

3D printing sounds ok on paper (sic) but it has a few problems. small size of pieces produced, materials used etc.

Fathom · 22-08-2017 5:36pm

NASA 2018 proposed budget includes InSight Mars lander and next Mars rover for a 2020 launch.

Rubecula · 22-08-2017 5:42pm

don't wish to put a dampener on it, but it has been said before in othe fields of endeavour, only believe this when it happens xx

Fathom · 22-08-2017 5:50pm

Rubecula wrote: »

don't wish to put a dampener on it, but it has been said before in othe fields of endeavour, only believe this when it happens xx

It's a proposed 2018 budget. Congress is yet to haggle. Or pass appropriations.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-08-2017 11:28pm

An earlier Mars plan - from the early 1950's when they thought the atmosphere was thick enough to land a glider

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5sULaqBIp0QNHl0R0xzX0xxdUE/view

Black Swan · 23-08-2017 6:13pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

An earlier Mars plan - from the early 1950's when they thought the atmosphere was thick enough to land a glider

Wernher von Braun (1952), The Mars Project, Esslingen, Germany. Published 1st in German, perhaps before von Braun came to lead the US space programme?

I have a cousin that works for JPL. Reminds me of the old joke he told me between the USA and the USSR after WWII: "My German aerospace engineer is better than your German aerospace engineer."

Rubecula · 23-08-2017 6:38pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

An earlier Mars plan - from the early 1950's when they thought the atmosphere was thick enough to land a glider

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5sULaqBIp0QNHl0R0xzX0xxdUE/view

Brilliant find Cap.

Black Swan wrote: »

Wernher von Braun (1952), The Mars Project, Esslingen, Germany. Published 1st in German, perhaps before von Braun came to lead the US space programme?

I have a cousin that works for JPL. Reminds me of the old joke he told me between the USA and the USSR after WWII: "My German aerospace engineer is better than your German aerospace engineer."

That rings a bell. I am sure I have heard that before somewhere or other, if I could only remember where and when.

*Runs to Swanny and wraps his arms around one ankle as she walks away*

Don't go boss, I have missed you.

Fathom · 23-08-2017 7:51pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

An earlier Mars plan - from the early 1950's when they thought the atmosphere was thick enough to land a glider

Mars glider.

Rubecula · 23-08-2017 9:31pm

Fathom wrote: »

Mars glider.

I see the design incorporates a blended wing and a lifting body, looks heavy but it is probably very efficient.

Fathom · 24-08-2017 6:23pm

Alternative hang glider design for Mars entry. aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA0Ny82ODYvb3JpZ2luYWwvbWFycy1kcm9wLWZsaWdodC10cmFqZWN0b3J5LmpwZw==

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA0Ny82ODYvb3JpZ2luYWwvbWFycy1kcm9wLWZsaWdodC10cmFqZWN0b3J5LmpwZw==

Capt'n Midnight · 24-08-2017 9:43pm

Fathom wrote: »

Alternative hang glider design for Mars entry.

65 g's :eek:

Aero brake to one of the moons and build a space elevator :P

Fathom · 25-08-2017 4:06pm

McGill Robotics Mars Rover 2017 Critical Design Review.

flaneur · 25-08-2017 4:12pm

Unfortunately, without the US and NASA on board this is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

The American political system is now so unhinged I think we are looking at the end of the golden age of US space exploration. They either don't want to spend the money or are anti-science.

The European Space Agency Is also limited by a lack of funds, as member states won't cough up the significant monies needed so it's always on a shoestring..

Russia doesn't have anything like that drive to show off and explore like it did in the Soviet days.

China might as a vanity project but not unless there's something to have a space race with.

The others are probably all too small.

Commercial operators would need a commercial inventive to go. The risks are enormous and the investment even more so.

Rubecula · 25-08-2017 10:25pm

flaneur wrote: »

Unfortunately, without the US and NASA on board this is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

The American political system is now so unhinged I think we are looking at the end of the golden age of US space exploration. They either don't want to spend the money or are anti-science.

The European Space Agency Is also limited by a lack of funds, as member states won't cough up the significant monies needed so it's always on a shoestring..

Russia doesn't have anything like that drive to show off and explore like it did in the Soviet days.

China might as a vanity project but not unless there's something to have a space race with.

The others are probably all too small.

Commercial operators would need a commercial inventive to go. The risks are enormous and the investment even more so.

one reason I think Mars could/should be bypassed for now and go straight to the asteroids for mining possibilities

Roger_007 · 25-08-2017 10:53pm

One thing that puzzles me about sending human beings to Mars is how is it proposed to get them back again.
It would be so much more difficult to launch a vehicle from the surface of Mars than it was from the Moon. Unlike the Moon, Mars has an atmosphere and it also has a much greater greater gravitational pull.
Unless an unmanned test mission is undertaken to send a spacecraft to Mars, land a module on the surface and launch a module back to, (and dock with), the mother ship, and return to Earth, I cannot see any manned mission taking place.
Another factor is that the political climate is becoming increasingly risk-averse and it difficult to see any political leaders in any country approving such a risky venture.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-08-2017 12:20am

One advantage Mars has is the possibility to make fuel on site.
The only drawback is that you need lots of energy and the surface of Mars is a low energy environment. Being further from the Sun solar panels aren't as good as here. Compared to panels in orbit you also loose power at night and during sandstorms.

Nuclear has been proposed for power. But it's heavy and there would be lots of objectors.

flaneur · 26-08-2017 11:22am

Rubecula wrote: »

one reason I think Mars could/should be bypassed for now and go straight to the asteroids for mining possibilities

Only if it made economic sense relative to mining on Earth.

You'd kinda wonder what the consequences of bringing seriously large amounts of minerals from asteroids to Earth might be too.

I know we are bombarded with space rocks but if you had someone brining down very large amounts of material you could easily imagine some unexpected consequence that we didn't think of.

There are a lot of systems in pretty fine balance.

flaneur · 26-08-2017 11:25am

Mars seems very definitely dead too, with a thin and slowly evaporating atmosphere and no significant magnetic field.

I wonder should we be putting more effort into looking at the Jupiter moons?

Europa and Ganymede seem to be very interesting places and could even have some kind of ecosystems.

Rubecula · 26-08-2017 5:56pm

flaneur wrote: »

Mars seems very definitely dead too, with a thin and slowly evaporating atmosphere and no significant magnetic field.

I wonder should we be putting more effort into looking at the Jupiter moons?

Europa and Ganymede seem to be very interesting places and could even have some kind of ecosystems.

mining Ganymede may make financial sense too if they drop the raw stuff on Mars

(by the way the Earth has a mass of aprox 5.9 sextillion tonnes. I seriously doubt we can affect it by any noticable degree)

flaneur · 26-08-2017 6:27pm

(that's what we always say....)

Fathom · 26-08-2017 11:26pm

Snowy dunes. Spring in the Northern Mars hemisphere. Snow and ice are composed of carbon dioxide; i.e., dry ice. Taken by High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.

Fathom · 28-08-2017 4:27pm

Minerals found on Mars suggest crater once contained right elements for habitability.

Rubecula · 28-08-2017 4:54pm

good post Fathom

Fathom · 28-08-2017 8:46pm

Rubecula wrote: »

good post Fathom

Setting foot on Mars? Seems impractical. Costly. Low ROI, if not losses. Develop & send more sophisticated robots. But... Star Trekkie exploration feelings exist. In may of us. "These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its 5-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

Rubecula · 28-08-2017 9:39pm

Fathom wrote: »

Setting foot on Mars? Seems impractical. Costly. Low ROI, if not losses. Develop & send more sophisticated robots. But... Star Trekkie exploration feelings exist. In may of us. "These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its 5-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

I agree but also logic dictates tat humans should not be more than a light hour or two away, what would be the point? if the bot got itself in a jam it would need a human command to sort it out, ans this will be the same for a long time to come.

Fathom · 29-08-2017 4:17pm

Rubecula wrote: »

I agree but also logic dictates tat humans should not be more than a light hour or two away, what would be the point? if the bot got itself in a jam it would need a human command to sort it out, ans this will be the same for a long time to come.

AI and robotics has been progressing rapidly. Several universities and nations competing to build and program a robot with human capabilities. It's only a matter of time before a highly sophisticated robot could replace humans in Mars exploration.

Fathom · 29-08-2017 10:57pm

Mars software AI highly accurate in mineral selection and analysis. Autonomous Exploration for Gathering Increased Science (AEGIS) with Curiosity continues to do science while out of contact with human controllers.

Rubecula · 30-08-2017 12:02am

why would we send artificial intelligence to distant places though? sorry but I can not see the point.

Mars by 2020?

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