Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
16-12-2010, 19:33   #1
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,769
Sub 2.50 - and beyond!



All hail our hero Buzz

Looking at the 2011 targets thread there are a fair number of runners who have cracked 3 and are looking to move onto the next level - or are already performing in the 2:30 - 2:45 bracket. I'm not sure that the training is *that* different for a 2:45 / 2:50 than it is for a 2:59 but there is only one way to find out...

Speaking personally I ran 2:58:02 in Oct, was running at sub 2:55 pace up to half way but was feeling it so eased off and ran "easy" in the second half to bag a pretty comfortable sub 3 with a big cheesy grin. Things that went wrong were the now traditional fade in the latter stages of the race and my nutrition (idiotic mistake of using non-isotonic gels and not matching gels to water stations).

So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?

- More commitment. I was inconsistent in my training last year, no Spring race and entire missed weeks in preping for autumn. At least 5 days running every week, no matter what gets in the way this time round with a target of 7 days per week is the plan this time

- More mileage. And more commitment will = more mileage. And that has to help

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.

Last edited by --amadeus--; 16-12-2010 at 19:36. Reason: spelling, etc
--amadeus-- is offline  
(2) thanks from:
Advertisement
16-12-2010, 23:14   #2
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,847
Hey Amadeus,
I'm in a similar situation. I like to keep things simple so here is my rough plan for the year:

*From now to the middle of Feb (if I'm good) each week like this:
1 x Shorter speed session like 400's and 800's. I want to improve leg speed and all that LT level business
1 x longish run ~12/13m easy
1 x 6-8m tempo maybe.
The rest easy (add in some strides along the way).

Then getting hitched in March , 3 week holiday work on the belly.

Early March - July same as above but increase the LSR slowly but surely.

July - Oct back to the usual:
1 x big session with long intervals (4x2m @ HMP)
1 x medium effort
1 x Long run (gonna get loads of 20's and lots with PMP.)
The rest easy. I would like to get up to the 70m pw range.

My efforts (tempo/HMP interval etc) will be determined by the time I get in a shorter race around June/July (macmillan) plus a bit faster to allow for an improvement in fitness over the 18 weeks of marathon training.

Something like that anyway. Works for me. Best of luck with it all....I'll race ya.

*subject to change.
misty floyd is offline  
Thanks from:
17-12-2010, 00:13   #3
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,717
Great idea for a thread

Wont be stepping up the marathon just yet but i think when you get to this level its the right training principles that need to be applied across the board regardless of the 5k - marathon training

4 Aspects to a successful training plan i believe which will bring a runner on are as follows.

Consistency, Capacity, Frequency, Mixture

In order to make the most gains and realize your full potential as a runner you have to maximize each area in unison with the others.

That means get in the right mixture of work: speed work, threshold work, long runs, races, and don't let any area fall behind. You have to work on all aspects year round.

Do this consistently, week after week, month after month and year after year. There is no short cuts in running, it takes time to realize your full potential.

You need to improve your frequency, slowly over time until you are running anything between 6-13 times a week (or cross train depending on injury history again this is ability to listen to ones body)

You need to slowly build your capacity/mileage over time, but only in conjuction with the proper mixture. This means that the usual 18 week plan coming up to a marathon should only tell 1/2 the story of the work put in through cumulative miles throughout the last three to four years

Big jumps in either mileage or quality don't work 9 out of 10 times because they aren't sustainable be it injury risk or sickness.

No short-cuts, just look at these 4 tenets and slowly and methodically over time improve on them. Maintain good mixture while increasing your capacity and frequency.

Too many people just pick out 1 of the 4 areas and then go overboard on it and that just doesn't work in the end.

Runners are like chains, we are only as good as our leakest links.

Improve your consistency until you are training solidly year round except for occassional planned short regeneration breaks.

Improve your capacity until you have reached your own personal maximum amount that you can do while keeping up the other areas.

Keep you mixture in balance with regular work on all areas.

You won't be able to make big changes to any area very quickly but will have to work on all areas (starting with whatever your weakest is) slowly over time

There are no magic formulas or sessions just keep it Simple and constant and you will see the results

Last edited by ecoli; 17-12-2010 at 00:22.
ecoli is offline  
17-12-2010, 11:10   #4
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by --amadeus-- View Post


All hail our hero Buzz

Looking at the 2011 targets thread there are a fair number of runners who have cracked 3 and are looking to move onto the next level - or are already performing in the 2:30 - 2:45 bracket. I'm not sure that the training is *that* different for a 2:45 / 2:50 than it is for a 2:59 but there is only one way to find out...

Speaking personally I ran 2:58:02 in Oct, was running at sub 2:55 pace up to half way but was feeling it so eased off and ran "easy" in the second half to bag a pretty comfortable sub 3 with a big cheesy grin. Things that went wrong were the now traditional fade in the latter stages of the race and my nutrition (idiotic mistake of using non-isotonic gels and not matching gels to water stations).

So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?

- More commitment. I was inconsistent in my training last year, no Spring race and entire missed weeks in preping for autumn. At least 5 days running every week, no matter what gets in the way this time round with a target of 7 days per week is the plan this time

- More mileage. And more commitment will = more mileage. And that has to help

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.
Hi Amadeus,

I was averaging 70-80 miles a week for the 1000 mile challenge last year and that got me just under 2.45. I did some longer fast runs and some cross country races for strenght. The high mileage was key.

I failed in my training pre-Berlin becuase my body wasnt ready for the workload i was asking it for. Mileage wasnt as high.

Foe myself I am going to get up to teh high mileage (easy runs), do a few shoerter faster races and cross country and then transfer to marathon type training.
T runner is offline  
Thanks from:
17-12-2010, 11:31   #5
tunguska
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by --amadeus-- View Post

- Tougher long runs. I get where Tungska comes from with his long, long PMP runs but I couldn't do 18 @ PMP. I will do more PMP runs this year but I will also mix in PMP and LT miles into the weekly LSR (working to a Daniels plan) and I hope that will benefit both my overall endurance and my ability to maintain speed when fatigued. It should also help sort out my chronic HTFU problem...

So that's how I'm planning on bridging the gap. Personally I'm pretty confident I can get to 2:55; I ran pretty easy in the latter stages of Amsterdam. Much beyond that I'm not so sure about but I'd be interested in hearing how others plan on moving from sub 3 to faster times (or what the really quick guys do that sub 3 aspirants might not). In particular things like cross training, weight training, diet & nutrition and massage, none of which I do or pay much attention to.

The Long marathon paced runs have been traded in for Daniels' sessions whereby I'll do 2 x 22mile runs per week, which each one of these been broken down into Threshold and marathon pace intervals. I mean once you get to Phase IV you'll be doing purely marathon paced runs aswell but the most you'll cover will be 15miles at Marathon pace. All other runs are done at easy pace. So you're basically just talking about 2 hard sessons/week. But at 22 miles, theyre monster sessions.
If I were you Amadeus I'd follow Daniels's elite plan. Its a very straight forward, no nonsense schedule. Although with the 2 x 22miler T-pace and M-pace sessions, plus the 22 mile long run, you'd be looking at 100miles/week all in all with the easy runs added in aswell.

Although having said that, I think 2:55 is a soft target for you. You should be looking at having a good crack at sub 2:50, to make it really worth your while. I think 70miles a week is the minmum requirement if you wanna go 2:45 and beyond.
tunguska is offline  
(2) thanks from:
Advertisement
17-12-2010, 11:37   #6
heffsarmy
Registered User
 
heffsarmy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 894
For me personally, I have noticed with increase in mileage and marathon specific training my times have come down. The mileage increase was'nt huge about 15 - 20%, but the more I trained the more my body was about to cope with the increase. The Dublin marathon 2010, I averaged around 60miles approx a week (not alot by some standards), but some weeks peaked just under 90miles. I used a simple plan by Brendan O'Shea, which was 1 1/2 fartlek tuesday, 2 hour fartlek thurs and a long run 2 1/2 sunday, the rest of the week was easy running with fri as a rest day. I like to keep things simple, so I will be using this plan for the next marathon, but will increase the avergae mileage to mid 70s and hopefully will bring me home in under 2.30 Dublin 2011 . My advice would be increase your mileage with marathon specific runs and you will improve.
heffsarmy is offline  
Thanks from:
17-12-2010, 12:11   #7
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by --amadeus-- View Post
So how am I going to move from 2:58 now to sub 2:50 by this time next year?
For you Amadeus, a few more races are required over 5k to 10m before heading into another marathon program. Start hitting McMillan equivalent times for 2:45 and then pick a marathon to train for.

One reason I believe a lot of people don't progress on from sub 3 to sub 2:45 is the 6min/ml barrier. When you're aiming for sub 3 marathon, PMP is 6:50. Lots of people aiming for 6:50 PMP will have race experience of a couple of miles at <6:00 pace i.e 30min 5 mile, 18min 5k, maybe sub 38 10km. So they can and have run 3-6 miles at a pace 50sec/ml faster than PMP.

Now take 2:45 - PMP is 6:15. So you need to get experience running at 5:25/5:30 pace - 17min 5k, 28min 5mile, maybe 36min 10k. So when you can string a few miles together at 5:30, then, 6:15 will start to feel like PMP, then you can build up the endurance and go for it in a marathon.

Kilnaboy 10 miler on 10th April is not too far from you and you could start a nice 12 week program after new year to build into that and hit a nice 2:50 McMillan equivalent Sub 60 there.
Gringo78 is offline  
17-12-2010, 14:48   #8
BeepBeep67
Registered User
 
BeepBeep67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,707
I'm not a marathon runner but that sounds like solid advice Gringo.
I know when I'm targetting a 5k race you can beat a couple of mile and 3k races in advance and I'm sure that translates for the longer distances also.
BeepBeep67 is offline  
17-12-2010, 22:12   #9
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,769
Whoa, whoa, hold on! This is a generic thread on 2:45 not on me getting to 2:45! I'm a long, long way short of that kind of form or fitness - sub 2:54 is the immediate goal and maybe sub 2:50 in the autumn is as far as I'll stretch for now, thank you very much...

Bundles of really, really good advice above. T. I am using a hybrid P&D and Daniels elite plan for this race actually, possibly as a way of bridging to a full Daniels elite next year maybe. I just don't know if I can commit the time though.

Interesting idea on targeting faster times on shorter races first, that's the KC approach I think, makes a lot of sense.
--amadeus-- is offline  
Thanks from:
Advertisement
18-12-2010, 11:46   #10
Sosa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,202
Like yourself Amadeus and Gringo....i eased to a sub 3 in Cork last year and on the day if i didnt have the 2 toilet breaks i could have gone sub 2:55...if i had went for it.
I will not be doing another Marathon until i have the time...if i was to do Cork or Dublin next year,i would be looking at sub 2:50...if i have to wait until next year...i may go for sub 2:45.
At the minute i am getting around 25/30m a week in,but its all fast tempos and intervals,so as Gringo said to run a 6:15p marathon,you need to get used to running at 5:25/30p in races and training.

I plan to use the very same program of specific marathon training that i used for Cork,just adjust the paces and maybe throw in a few extra miles.
My plan was 55-60m a week up to the last 2 weeks...i think that if i averaged 60-65 i could break 2:50 in Cork next year.

I will be following this log with interest.
Sosa is offline  
(2) thanks from:
18-12-2010, 20:36   #11
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 71
anyone know where you can get daniels marathon plan! or does he have a book etc!!! does ti give different program's for different pace/targets etc!!!

cheers!!!
sherdo2010 is offline  
18-12-2010, 20:49   #12
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 71
also. keep postin up these training plans etc!! a mate of mine did a 2.55 marathon last year and this was his first time to get under 3 hours. he does one marathon a year if even and F**k all other races. mabye 2 a year!! he wants to go sub 2.50!! runs about 60mile a week on his own all the time. has no knowledge,well little about plans etc!! he doesnt do gels etc!! he only took on water on mile 15 when he did the marathon at 2.55 and at that mabye a few mouthfulls etc!! he lives off rice krispicies and coke. his diet is shocking!!!! he also goes to the gym 3/4 times a week and tones upper body alot (he's 32 and wants to look good)!! i think he wanna forget about the gym to get to under sub 2.50 etc!! he has a 35min 10k and 1.18 half!!! where should he start!!!

Experts lets hear it please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sherdo2010 is offline  
18-12-2010, 21:29   #13
Krusty_Clown
Registered User
 
Krusty_Clown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 19,028
Send a message via AIM to Krusty_Clown
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherdo2010 View Post
also. keep postin up these training plans etc!! a mate of mine did a 2.55 marathon last year and this was his first time to get under 3 hours. he does one marathon a year if even and F**k all other races. mabye 2 a year!! he wants to go sub 2.50!! runs about 60mile a week on his own all the time. has no knowledge,well little about plans etc!! he doesnt do gels etc!! he only took on water on mile 15 when he did the marathon at 2.55 and at that mabye a few mouthfulls etc!! he lives off rice krispicies and coke. his diet is shocking!!!! he also goes to the gym 3/4 times a week and tones upper body alot (he's 32 and wants to look good)!! i think he wanna forget about the gym to get to under sub 2.50 etc!! he has a 35min 10k and 1.18 half!!! where should he start!!!

Experts lets hear it please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm!!!! What kind of advice are you looking for!!!!!! Sounds like you have it all sussed!!!!!

He should fix his diet, follow a structure plan, take on more water (if he needs it), but by the sounds of things, he's doing pretty good all on his own. When I ran 2:48, I peaked at 63 miles, so you don't necessarily need to run very high mileage to break 2:50, but you probably do need to run proportionately more mileage than you did for previous marathons. You can't really follow an identical plan and hope for a different result, so you've got to change a variable, and usually the winning strategy is higher mileage. If he's not currently doing 10-15 miles at marathon pace every other week, then he might get some benefit from that too.

Look at the really fast guys up above (heffsarmy, tunguska, etc.). They're running significantly more miles than those of us who are just around the sub 2:50 mark. Coincidence that they're running much faster times? Don't think so!!!!
Krusty_Clown is offline  
18-12-2010, 21:53   #14
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusty_Clown View Post
Hmm!!!! What kind of advice are you looking for!!!!!! Sounds like you have it all sussed!!!!!

He should fix his diet, follow a structure plan, take on more water (if he needs it), but by the sounds of things, he's doing pretty good all on his own. When I ran 2:48, I peaked at 63 miles, so you don't necessarily need to run very high mileage to break 2:50, but you probably do need to run proportionately more mileage than you did for previous marathons. You can't really follow an identical plan and hope for a different result, so you've got to change a variable, and usually the winning strategy is higher mileage. If he's not currently doing 10-15 miles at marathon pace every other week, then he might get some benefit from that too.

Look at the really fast guys up above (heffsarmy, tunguska, etc.). They're running significantly more miles than those of us who are just around the sub 2:50 mark. Coincidence that they're running much faster times? Don't think so!!!!

he does no rep work. just 6,10,12 miles run's all year round!! he also did the 2.55 just with a normal watch and he now got his garmin 405cx and will this really help make a difference to traning if he's running to pace all the time!!
sherdo2010 is offline  
18-12-2010, 23:07   #15
Krusty_Clown
Registered User
 
Krusty_Clown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 19,028
Send a message via AIM to Krusty_Clown
Well, yes. If he runs to pace all of the time, he will probably find that he starts going backwards. You can't run at marathon pace all of the time. It sounds like he has a lot of potential.

Don't mean to be rude, but you really have to get your exclamation marks under control. It's hard to tell where you're asking a question or making a statement. Sorry.
Krusty_Clown is offline  
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet