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rsa supporting e-scooters

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    unhappyBB wrote: »
    The indo also says:


    Yes helmets are in your own interest. I just don't like the idea of being forced to wear one under penalty of a fine when someone on a bike, capable of going must faster, has a choice whether to wear one or not.

    Would be worried that a mandatory helmet law for e-scooters would feed into a mandatory helmet law for cyclists eventually as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭oLoonatic


    My only issue with them is grown adults using them on narrow footpaths. I think its a fantastic idea. I wont go back to commuting by car after cycling for over a year now. The less cars on the road the better as far as im concernced. Anything less than 10k is doable on a bike, but you have people driving to work less than 1km in some cases (mainly my sister in law as an example) We need to break that mould that everyone needs a car.

    Yes i am aware that there is a severe lack of infrastructure but we have to start somewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Thus far despite the rise in popularity of cycling and it being an ideal solution for transport for a lot of people. With proven experience in other countries.

    There seems a lot of hostility against cycling from some quarters and lots of projects seem to be held up and derailed by vested interests who want to keep the status quo and keep us rooted in a car centric culture which no longer works for a lot of people.

    The helmet argument is another one of those. Dublin bikes would not be the success it is if a helmet law had been imposed on it.

    However scooters are not the same as bicycles. So we should look to other countries experience with scooters rather than copying cycling laws. But be aware that some will use any changes for scooters as a means to attack and discourage cycling.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Whilst I've only ever ridden push-scooters, I can't help but think that the risk of injury from falling is less than it is on a bike.

    One of the biggest complicating factors if you fall from a bike, is that the frame is stuck between your legs making it significantly harder to "catch" yourself as you come off.
    On a scooter, the rider is going to have a lot more ability to get their feet out and under them which should mitigate the "fall and hit your head" risk that helmets are targeted towards

    Its the risk rating, the damage might be less but the probability is probably a fair bit higher. On the same note, my memory tells me that those who present with injuries from scooter accidents are typically half head injuries. Now that discounts alot of falls and injuries were nothing happens but the data is there to say that head injuries do occur and are numerous enough to be noted.

    Long story short, Severity is possibly alot lower but the probability is alot higher. So it maybe more or less risky than cycling,depending on how you weight such things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Its the risk rating, the damage might be less but the probability is probably a fair bit higher. On the same note, my memory tells me that those who present with injuries from scooter accidents are typically half head injuries. Now that discounts alot of falls and injuries were nothing happens but the data is there to say that head injuries do occur and are numerous enough to be noted.

    Long story short, Severity is possibly alot lower but the probability is alot higher. So it maybe more or less risky than cycling,depending on how you weight such things.
    No offence meant but that's totally meaningless without absolute numbers and something to compare it to. Saying half of all injuries are head injuries sounds huge but if there are feck all injuries happening overall it's not something to worry about. Half a tiny number is still a tiny number.

    Of course it might be a massive number, I don't know.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    I was in a part of Miami last month where they have 3 shared E-Scooter schemes running (companies running them are Uber, Lyft and Spin) where, basically, you scan a QR code on the stem, via their app, and off you go. The scooters are just left randomly on the path, in parks, outside shops, cafes, etc.

    While that's a bit ahead of where the discussion here is at, what I found most interesting was to observe an environment where they were ubiquitous and legal, and let me tell you, it was an unmitigated disaster. People were flying up and down paths, going up the wrong side of the road, I saw one guy lose control and swing the scooter into the door of a parked car. The locals there absolutely hate it (apart from the kids, who love it). But it was a good insight into how Dublin might be, were these to become more prominent on the streets here.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    TheChizler wrote: »
    No offence meant but that's totally meaningless without absolute numbers and something to compare it to. Saying half of all injuries are head injuries sounds huge but if there are feck all injuries happening overall it's not something to worry about. Half a tiny number is still a tiny number.

    Of course it might be a massive number, I don't know.

    Numbers are available for the states, looks higher than cycling, stick scooter and head injury into google,the per 100.000 km metric ws in the first few hits for me


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    1bryan wrote: »
    I was in a part of Miami last month where they have 3 shared E-Scooter schemes running (companies running them are Uber, Lyft and Spin) where, basically, you scan a QR code on the stem, via their app, and off you go. The scooters are just left randomly on the path, in parks, outside shops, cafes, etc. While that's a bit ahead of where the discussion here is at, what I found most interesting was to observe an environment where they were ubiquitous and legal, and let me tell you, it was an unmitigated disaster. People were flying up and down paths, going up the wrong side of the road, I saw one guy lose control and swing the scooter into the door of a parked car. The locals there absolutely hate it (apart from the kids, who love it). But it was a good insight into how Dublin might be, were these to become more prominent on the streets here.

    Scooter rental/apps seem to be quite popular in a couple of cities I visited recently, and particularly congested ones that make Dublin's traffic look like a Sunday morning.... Electric bikes with throttle assist were also extremely popular in one city which didn't have a light rail or a good train system...

    I believe a lot more people would switch to eScooters as you can move along without having to break a sweat and can fold up the scooter if it's your own or just leave outside your office for rentals.

    They are a great way to save your feet, and would be perfect for tourists who may come from cities which have these schemes already.

    If we want to break the dominance of Car traffic in our city centers then something more will need to be done to facilitate eBikes or Scooters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭JMcL


    1bryan wrote: »
    I was in a part of Miami last month where they have 3 shared E-Scooter schemes running (companies running them are Uber, Lyft and Spin) where, basically, you scan a QR code on the stem, via their app, and off you go. The scooters are just left randomly on the path, in parks, outside shops, cafes, etc.

    While that's a bit ahead of where the discussion here is at, what I found most interesting was to observe an environment where they were ubiquitous and legal, and let me tell you, it was an unmitigated disaster. People were flying up and down paths, going up the wrong side of the road, I saw one guy lose control and swing the scooter into the door of a parked car. The locals there absolutely hate it (apart from the kids, who love it). But it was a good insight into how Dublin might be, were these to become more prominent on the streets here.

    Pretty much mirrors my observations in Paris during the spring. Piles of the things just dumped whereever (I think Lime one one other - can't remember which - operate there). Speeding adults on the (crowded) footpath. Since they operate per minute pricing - unlike the Dublin Bike model where you get half an hour "free" - this can only encourage both speeding (get there quicker) and dumping (get rid of it ASAP)

    Not against them as a mode of transport per-se, but do have issues with that particular business model


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    JMcL wrote: »
    Pretty much mirrors my observations in Paris during the spring. Piles of the things just dumped whereever (I think Lime one one other - can't remember which - operate there). Speeding adults on the (crowded) footpath. Since they operate per minute pricing - unlike the Dublin Bike model where you get half an hour "free" - this can only encourage both speeding (get there quicker) and dumping (get rid of it ASAP)

    Not against them as a mode of transport per-se, but do have issues with that particular business model
    I think if the same model was used in Dublin the company that owns them would spend all their days fishing them out of the Liffey and canals.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Hence the issues with Bleeper.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I think if the same model was used in Dublin the company that owns them would spend all their days fishing them out of the Liffey and canals.

    That seems to be the culture in certain parts of the UK & Ireland, and the lack of Police numbers, and the high levels of repeat offenders roaming the streets freely. No consequences to anti-social behavior in Ireland as opposed to other countries where Scooter schemes work.

    I could imagine that any scooter rental companies would find their Scooters in a huge bonfire somewhere or in the canals as you say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Numbers are available for the states, looks higher than cycling, stick scooter and head injury into google,the per 100.000 km metric ws in the first few hits for me
    Had a quick look and can only see some rough stats per trip, you'll have to do your own research :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Utter Consternation


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    That seems to be the culture in certain parts of the UK & Ireland, and the lack of Police numbers, and the high levels of repeat offenders roaming the streets freely. No consequences to anti-social behavior in Ireland as opposed to other countries where Scooter schemes work.

    I could imagine that any scooter rental companies would find their Scooters in a huge bonfire somewhere or in the canals as you say.

    That's just it. I was Austria years ago, cannot remember the name of the village i was in, but there were plastic folders with newspapers in them nailed to telephone poles. The locals would put their money into the open folder and take a paper out. It was done on a trust basis.

    Can you imagine trying to do something like that here? :eek::eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Would never work here

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  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Rx713B


    i think there great


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Stark wrote: »
    Would never work here

    In fairness that water stand is at the Airport, full of CCTV cameras and security staff, try putting that around the city centre and see what happens...


  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭LeeroyJ.




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    LeeroyJ. wrote: »

    Even with a couple of Fianna Fail TDs voting for absentees, they could only muster 32 votes.




  • Under the Bill, the scooters would not require either a licence or insurance but helmets would be compulsory for users

    The helmets thing doesn't sit well with me. I'd worry about cycling getting lumped in with scooters in the future and helmets becoming mandatory. I do wear a helmet on the bike for what it's worth but thats my choice to make.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    I think if the same model was used in Dublin the company that owns them would spend all their days fishing them out of the Liffey and canals.
    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    I could imagine that any scooter rental companies would find their Scooters in a huge bonfire somewhere or in the canals as you say.
    Similar was said about dublin bikes, I think it is more likely with escooters as I guess they are more fragile and would become a test of strength for scumbags, and throwing contests. However rather than mindless vandalism I was wondering about theft. A dublin bike is not going to fetch much trying to sell it! but I wondered if part of the escooters get sold, like the battery must be worth a bit.

    https://www.quora.com/What-s-stopping-people-from-stealing-the-Bird-or-Lime-scooters
    There is a GPS device and an alarm in each escooter. Most people are too lazy to disable them.

    However, some are not. You can buy $30 kits to disable the GPS and basically make a Bird scooter your own. In fact, you can easily find stolen escooters for sale on the web.

    Many people are stealing escooters and turning that into a steady source of income. I heard companies like Bird can afford to lose up to 10% of their escooters before it becomes unprofitable for them to do business, though.

    INSIDE THE LAWLESS NEW WORLD OF ELECTRIC-SCOOTER HACKING

    The helmet thing worries me, I would say 97%+ of the public are completely ignorant and the pros & cons -thinking there are absolutely no cons at all. It would be the end of dublin bikes if it came in for bicycles, those involved with dublin bikes would know this and fight it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    one difference between the schemes I saw for e-scooters in the US, and Dublin Bikes, is that there are no docking stations. The scooters are just left randomly on the pavement. If a Dublin bike goes missing while you have it checked out, you assume responsibility for it. While it's docked, it's secure.

    The E-scooter thing might work, were they to install docking stations. But it's definitely higher risk than the Dublin Bikes scheme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    1bryan wrote: »
    one difference between the schemes I saw for e-scooters in the US, and Dublin Bikes, is that there are no docking stations. The scooters are just left randomly on the pavement. If a Dublin bike goes missing while you have it checked out, you assume responsibility for it. While it's docked, it's secure.

    The E-scooter thing might work, were they to install docking stations. But it's definitely higher risk than the Dublin Bikes scheme.
    Yes, the elegance of the docking design is understimated, I think. But it does have a much larger up-front requirement for investment. Worth it though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭ExoPolitic



    Lets hope the barrister is good, if they set a precedence favouring the rider then there will be no need for the "law to change"... they will of been legal all along.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm not sure the law is that flexible enough for a hot shot barrister to find a glaring loophole in it. i wonder if the clarification the second chap's barrister is seeking, is in relation to electric mobility scooters, and it'd be tough to argue that his client was in medical need of such a mobility aid. and they may have a completely different and specific set of regs anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    Lets hope the barrister is good, if they set a precedence favouring the rider then there will be no need for the "law to change"... they will of been legal all along.
    Can't see that happening. Does any country allow the use of unicycles on the public roads?
    Sergei Maslov (45), of Glashaus apartments, Tallaght, Dublin 24, was charged with riding a “black electric unicycle” on March 27th of this year on Templeogue Road, Templeogue, Dublin 6W, without insurance, contrary to the Road Traffic Act 1961.

    Think I have only heard of scooters. Also does any country allow escooters and not had to make a change to the law? -i.e. they were legal all along? I guess they might fall under throttled electric bikes some place who might allow those.
    electric mobility scooters, and it'd be tough to argue that his client was in medical need of such a mobility aid. and they may have a completely different and specific set of regs anyway.
    Most countries have speed limits on electric wheelchairs, and from the ones I was reading up you did not need to prove you needed it -which makes sense as it would be another load of red tape. I saw one site saying we did have a speed limit here, but another seemed to say otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mobility vehicles have their own class.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    http://www.assistireland.ie/eng/Information/Information_Sheets/Mobility_scooters.html
    Mobility scooters come in two categories, Class 2 and Class 3. The differences in weight and power (and thereby speed) of the two enable them to be used in different environments.

    Class 2:
    are generally smaller, lighter and less powerful;
    can be designed for indoor and/or outdoor use. If for indoor use, they will have limited outdoor use and less distance range;
    some can be dismantled or folded for transporting;
    cannot be used on the road (except where there is no pavement or to cross the road);
    outdoor models have the ability to climb kerbs;
    have a top speed of 4miles/hour (6.44km/hour);


    Class 3:
    are generally bigger, heavier and more powerful;
    are not for indoor use;
    can be used on the road;
    have a longer distance range;
    cannot be dismantled;
    have a number of additional safety requirements to allow road use;
    have a top speed of 4 miles/hour (6.44 km/hour) off the road and 8 miles/hour (12.9 km/hour) on the road;


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭JMcL


    rubadub wrote: »
    Can't see that happening. Does any country allow the use of unicycles on the public roads?

    They were all the rage in Paris last year, though I saw fewer of them this year as e-scooters seemed to be all over the place. Now whether they're allowed is another matter!


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