The V&V Feedback Thread part II

Silly Gilly · 27-01-2021 12:13am

<Snip> Not feedback

eviltwin · 27-01-2021 12:15am

Bigbooty wrote: »

Sorry. I won't say no more about that then as I don't want that sort of friction. I don't want to post in a vegan forum where I can't talk freely about ethics since that is what veganism essentially is. You may as well call the forum vegetarians and plant based if that's the case.

It’s not a vegan forum though and it would be a shame if that’s the perception. All people should be welcome here. I feel the reoccurring animal rights debates are very off putting. This place should be a vegan minority but it seems to be made up of vegans and meat producers. Where are all the vegetarians? Why aren’t they posting? Let’s face it, it’s a very acrimonious forum at times. Why would anyone visit?

Thelonious Monk · 27-01-2021 12:21am

<Snip> Not feedback

Bigbooty · 27-01-2021 12:35am

eviltwin wrote: »

It’s not a vegan forum though and it would be a shame if that’s the perception. All people should be welcome here. I feel the reoccurring animal rights debates are very off putting. This place should be a vegan minority but it seems to be made up of vegans and meat producers. Where are all the vegetarians? Why aren’t they posting? Let’s face it, it’s a very acrimonious forum at times. Why would anyone visit?

Indeed, why would anyone nevermind a vegetarian want to post here? It is awful. I do agree and understand where you're coming from. The threads quickly declined into clear baiting and point scoring mixed with real vitriol. I don't really know what the solution is. I suggested splitting the forums but its probably not worth the hassle.

Ten of Swords · 27-01-2021 12:41am

OK there have been clear instructions in post #1, there has been a mod nudge to get back on track by me, a category moderator has also tried to steer the thread back on track and I have now snipped posts that were not providing feedback but were instead having a go at other posters

At this stage all passive approaches to keep the thread on track have been used. From this point on it will be cards and bans

Provide constructive feedback about the forum

Bigbooty · 27-01-2021 12:53am

Perhaps we should collect opinions on what our expectations of the forum should be going forward. If there's a general theme as to what people would like to see more or less of..if that means less ethics and animal rights moving to more light hearted stuff then so be it. It would be a shame to not be able to talk about these things but there's plenty of other platforms that can be used to explore those issues.

Silly Gilly · 27-01-2021 12:57am

Bigbooty wrote: »

Indeed, why would anyone nevermind a vegetarian want to post here? It is awful. I do agree and understand where you're coming from. The threads quickly declined into clear baiting and point scoring mixed with real vitriol. I don't really know what the solution is. I suggested splitting the forums but its probably not worth the hassle.

The solution is really quite simple. You have two sides that literally will never see eye to eye. The forum is ostensibly meant to give a voice to one of those sides so you eject the other side. I suspect this is being done over time by gradually increasing mod sanctions for the worst offenders. If it were me I'd have shown all of them the door in one fell swoop but that is the moderators prerogative.

A more peaceful forum might be more conducive to getting more sympathetic posters participating.

27-01-2021 1:00am

Bigbooty wrote: »

Indeed, why would anyone nevermind a vegetarian want to post here? It is awful. I do agree and understand where you're coming from. The threads quickly declined into clear baiting and point scoring mixed with real vitriol. I don't really know what the solution is. I suggested splitting the forums but its probably not worth the hassle.

I do wish more vegetarians would post. Maybe they don’t feel the need.

It’s been harder to find food, recipes, restaurants and so on as a vegan so I’ve gone looking for info and found this forum. Maybe vegetarians don’t have the inconvenience vegans do.

I was vegetarian for about 20 years and in no way would make them feel unwelcome. It’s insane to think otherwise.

I do feel there was a move to divide and conquer, by some posters, and they suggested that vegans were not accepting vegetarians on this forum. That’s an absolute nonsense.

I’ve much more in common with a vegetarian than a carnist.

27-01-2021 1:19am

Bigbooty wrote: »

Perhaps we should collect opinions on what our expectations of the forum should be going forward. If there's a general theme as to what people would like to see more or less of..if that means less ethics and animal rights moving to more light hearted stuff then so be it. It would be a shame to not be able to talk about these things but there's plenty of other platforms that can be used to explore those issues.

I’m not someone that uses Facebook, Instagram or Twitter and I’ve no other avenue to interact with like minded people.

I want to be able to quote someone or put up a video that reflects my views or just makes sense to me. I think the majority of V&V’s have made their choices because of the lack of animal rights so it would be crazy not to be able to discuss how we feel about the actions of others.

It’s a forum that I never thought, in a million years, farmers would frequent.

I’m an atheist and I think one of the worse things to ever happen to society is religious education. It’s held humankind back immeasurably and it’s impact on humans is heartbreaking but you won’t find any of my posts in any of the religious forums because I don’t post there. Why would I ? I accept their right to believe what they want to believe. I accept my post would only antagonise. I accept I can’t change their minds.

People that are coming in to this forum to debate what we believe are wasting everyone’s time.

I believe from artificial insemination to plate is one of the cruelest existences imaginable. Others actually do it for a living. How can those people ever discuss it without offence being caused ?

I don’t want to be part of a forum where you have to defend your choices. I want to be part of a forum where I can share my experiences, ideas and, mostly importantly, good recipes.

People that deny my feelings are telling me they can measure pain. Imaging punching someone and saying ‘ah that didn’t hurt’. Literally people in here telling me my feelings are wrong. That’s not a nice thing to be told often.

Tom Mann Centuria · 27-01-2021 1:30am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I do wish more vegetarians would post. Maybe they don’t feel the need.

I was vegetarian for about 20 years and in no way would make them feel unwelcome. It’s insane to think otherwise.

Rarely post, often lurk. Vegetarian (for 30 years man and boy :pac:) and genuinely never been made to feel unwelcome by what I've read. My 12 year old son is heading towards veganism I think (unprompted), so I appreciate all the info regarding good plant based substitutes for things.

I do think the forum is much easier to read now a more partisan approach has been taken and credit to the mods.

27-01-2021 1:56am

Another point that’s never been made.

There’s been an explosion of people choosing a V or V diet. Both in Ireland and internationally.

Those numbers have not been reflected on this forum.

I think mods need to ask themselves the question - why is that ?

If, let’s say, fishing or cycling had a big uptake in numbers of new people partaking in that hobby then what would happen in the those forums ?

My guess would be that they would be welcomed aboard. Given basic advice. Shown how to do things the right way. Advice and tips on where and when to go. And so on.

They wouldn’t be challenged constantly on the semantics of their new choice to start fishing or cycling. If they were then the forum would die off pretty quickly.

Just like this one has. I wonder how many people came here and thought ‘**** show’ and left.

Annoyingly that’s exactly what the detractors want. They don’t want people expressing their choices.

V and V’s aren’t going away. The numbers will continue to increase because there are at least 3 very good reasons to make the change. People are motivated by animal cruelty, the environment and their health. This isn’t a fad. The new generation want a planet and understand that changes are necessary.

It’s a shame that this forum doesn’t reflect that. If other platforms have increased numbers, on this subject, then why not Boards ?

NcdJd · 27-01-2021 9:09am

I would create a sub forum in food for posters interested in vegetarian recipes etc. That way it's solely related to diet and not mixed up with veganism.

Have a general vegan forum discussing all things vegan with moderating the same as any other forums.

For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private. That way they can dump videos etc and discuss things without the risk of pissing off posters who are involved in the care and welfare of farm animals.

eviltwin · 27-01-2021 9:12am

NcdJd wrote: »

I would create a sub forum in food for interested in vegetarian recipes etc. That way it's solely related to diet and not mixed up with veganism.

Have a general vegan forum discussing all things vegan with moderating the same as any other forums.

For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private. That way they can dump videos etc and discuss things without the risk of pissing off posters who are involved in the care and welfare of farm animals.

Are you that precious that you need a discussion on animal welfare to be hidden? Can you not just ignore it?

27-01-2021 9:19am

NcdJd wrote: »

I would create a sub forum in food for posters interested in vegetarian recipes etc. That way it's solely related to diet and not mixed up with veganism.

Have a general vegan forum discussing all things vegan with moderating the same as any other forums.

For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private. That way they can dump videos etc and discuss things without the risk of pissing off posters who are involved in the care and welfare of farm animals.

Another dig - ‘for the couple of posters’

It’s borderline funny.

There’s no need to try and hide away the truth at all.

The more people that can see the industry at work the better. Surprised you want to hide it away.

The idea that ‘care and welfare’ ends in slaughter is a pretty disgusting thing to post in this forum. But I’m guessing you know that anyway.

NcdJd · 27-01-2021 9:21am

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you that precious that you need a discussion on animal welfare to be hidden? Can you not just ignore it?

No on both counts. But some of it is very insulting and there has been occasions where farmers have been called rapists and murderers and I don't think anyone should accept commentary like that. The videos especially. Farmers are people too and negative and derogatory comments have an effect on people no matter how well you try to ignore them.

NcdJd · 27-01-2021 9:26am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Another dig - ‘for the couple of posters’

It’s borderline funny.

There’s no need to try and hide away the truth at all.

The more people that can see the industry at work the better. Surprised you want to hide it away.

The idea that ‘care and welfare’ ends in slaughter is a pretty disgusting thing to post in this forum. But I’m guessing you know that anyway.

Was just an idea to calm things down a bit that's all. And it is only a couple of posters. Most of the posters in here are ok in my book.

27-01-2021 9:43am

NcdJd wrote: »

Was just an idea to calm things down a bit that's all. And it is only a couple of posters. Most of the posters in here are ok in my book.

I’ve read plenty of your comments on this and the farming forum.

I don’t think you genuinely want to ‘calm things down a bit’ at all.

Your disdain for all things V&V is pretty clear from your posting history.

So I don’t believe what you’re saying when you attempt to be reasonable. I take those attempts as you being facetious.

ganmo · 27-01-2021 10:48am

You need to learn to use the report button instead of the reply button

purplesnack · 27-01-2021 12:34pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Was just an idea to calm things down a bit that's all. And it is only a couple of posters. Most of the posters in here are ok in my book.

I think a lot more vegans and vegetarians would post here only that it descends into complete toxicity all the time and from what I can see, quite a few vegans/vegetarians no longer post in this forum because of the way the forum has gone. I admire the 'couple of posters' that continue to stand by their beliefs despite what's hurled at them. If the ethics around veganism cannot be openly discussed here, then there is no point in having this forum - it may as well be a plant-based forum in nutrition.

Unearthly · 27-01-2021 4:32pm

100% no to a private forum.

A suggestion wanted by people who do not have the best interests of the forum but not by the people who want to use the forum

ganmo · 27-01-2021 6:42pm

Unearthly wrote: »

100% no to a private forum.

A suggestion wanted by people who do not have the best interests of the forum but not by the people who want to use the forum

A sub forum is not a private forum

Tilikum17 · 27-01-2021 6:53pm

ganmo wrote: »

A sub forum is not a private forum

Your buddy above was asking for it to be made private.

“For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private”

Nekarsulm · 27-01-2021 7:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well this isn’t relevant at all.

It’s not ‘obvious’ how people are educating themselves at all. So that’s a nonsense comment.

Well, the habit of posting videos from poor countries with poor animal welfare conditions, and starring Irish farmers by association makes it 'obvious'.

I don’t care where it’s happening so you’re obsession with ‘foreign’ is also irrelevant. Animals don’t have nationalities. I first became a vegetarian while I was living in Ireland.

If you think animals don't have nationalities, you know very little about farming.

It’s nice you recognise that some countries are ‘countries with often deplorable or non-existent standards of animal cruelty regulations’ because Irish people are eating animals from those countries too. But in general borders or flags don’t come in to my consideration as to what is or isn’t animal cruelty. You need to understand that.

I deplore the practice of importing chicken from Vietnam, prawns and tiger prawns from Malaysia, beef from South America and the USA etc.
Often raised without the welfare standards Irish farmers adhere to, and almost always using chemicals banned in the EU since the late 1980's.

My beliefs aren’t fragile and to suggest that is insincere imo. I don’t like defending my choices, daily, to people who have ZERO interest in my choices other than to feel threatened by them. It’s a complete waste of my time and ruins the readability of the forum for those that want to use it for genuine interest reasons.

I believe the moderation has improved and hope it continues to tighten on those that only want to disagree with the choices made by V&V’s and their reasons for it.

I too believe moderation has improved, and it's nice to see some of the inflammatory generalisations about Irish farmers have been reigned in.

I have no problems with vegans choices, more than 3/4's of the food I, ( and probably 99% of all farmers) eat is vegan.

Thelonious Monk · 27-01-2021 7:24pm

You seem like a nice bloke and you listen to posters here and respect them, but I don't see how you can deplore meat being imported here if Irish farmers send their beef and dairy products worldwide. Live animal exports to countries with terrible animal welfare standards too. 13,000 cattle send to libya in 2019 ffs. You were even agreeing with the latest venture of flying cows from Ireland to other countries, it just sounds a bit contradictory.

Nekarsulm · 27-01-2021 7:42pm

TMy contention would be that there is a major difference in sending chilled or frozen beef and lamb to consumers in the EU, when their origin and the care and husbandry they received here during their life is to the highest of standards.
And traceable and provable.

Dairy products being exported?
How does than impact on the quality of life of the cow?
If the cheese is eaten in Bantry, Bruges or Beiruth makes no difference.
Our local milk Co OP sends Caesin ( by product extracted after butter is churned) to Mexico and world wide.
It's used in the Pharma industry.
The Panadol tablet you take for a headache is largely constituted from Caesin with a tiny amount of the active chemical that affects your system in the way the drug is designed to do.

Compare that to the typical South Americian beef animal which is either straight from a feed lot where it's been administered growth promotes, or rounded up from vast branches on the pampas where many notifiable ( by European standards) diseases are endemic.
Or of tiger prawns, grown in tanks in the far east and mutilated to cause them to grow larger than nature intended.

I disagree with live export of cattle to middle eastern countries, and vehemently disagree with their slaughter practices.

As to flying calves to European farms, the reason I think it is worth trying is that transport time is greatly reduced, and by effect, stress on the animal is minimised.

Thelonious Monk · 27-01-2021 7:45pm

Oh I know exports and imports aren't going anywhere soon, but one of the arguments we often face here is how we import our food from all over as if that's purely a v&v thing - sorry if you weren't one of them but it seems to be a standard argument on boards.

27-01-2021 9:36pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Oh I know exports and imports aren't going anywhere soon, but one of the arguments we often face here is how we import our food from all over as if that's purely a v&v thing - sorry if you weren't one of them but it seems to be a standard argument on boards.

Yeah.

A bizarre question often asked in this forum.

Another example of having to spend time defending our choices.

Not everyone has gone V or V because of the environment.

And yes a lot of foods are imported/exported so why the focus on where V or V food comes from ?

It’s simply an effort to wind-up or derail.

Unearthly · 27-01-2021 11:20pm

ganmo wrote: »

A sub forum is not a private forum

See above for the suggestion

A sub forum makes no sense either. There is no need for any sub forum. The activity is limited as it is

Ten of Swords · 27-01-2021 11:45pm

Thank you to everyone who has participated in the thread so far. From reading the last thread in detail it's clear that this one is running more smoothly and being used for it's intended purpose instead of just arguing It's also encouraging to read people's feedback and there is a genuine appetite for improving the forum. I want to collate some of the feedback so far and respond to a couple of points

Deleted User wrote: »

I have asked 3 direct questions to mods but never received any reply which was disappointing. Each question was to try and understand the moderating system better so I would not waste anyone’s time.

Fair point - communication from the mods could be better, me in particular!

ganmo wrote: »

stuck my nose in yesterday to find something contrary to the charter in the first line of the first post that had been there for a week.

I don't want to derail the thread dealing with specific incidents in other threads but since this was brought up as feedback - the item in question had been dealt with by way of a mod note later in the thread but once it had been reported the post was snipped within hours

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems to me the punishments that are handed out are worth accepting, by some, because they are so lenient.

Infractions, warnings and bans are handed out for breaches of the rules, this is done across the board by all moderators on the site in their various fora. Is there a perception that the moderation here is light touch or hands off? I'm keen to explore this further.

NcdJd wrote: »

The vegan and vegetarian forum should be no different to any other forum with regard to moderating and regulars in here should not be above the ban hammer

It isn't, and they're not.

eviltwin wrote: »

I think there could be a sub forum or mega thread for issues relating to farmers vs vegans. I don't have a problem with the debate but the main page isn't the appropriate place for it and is very off putting. However some people want to discuss that and they should be able - I don't think its fair that it be dumped in the farmers forum either, I'm sure some of the members there are equally fed up with it all.

No topic is off limits (within site rules) but a thread dedicated to farmers vs vegans will not end well. If posters wish to discuss aspects of veganism or aspects of farming that's fine but the problems begin when threads get adversarial and it will be moderated accordingly.

Bigbooty wrote: »

What is really stiffling discussion here is those that are offended because we talk about animal rights

Once the discussion is respectful and within the rules it's not a problem. Animal welfare is specifically mentioned in point 2 of the charter, including not shouting down people espousing their perspective

Bigbooty wrote: »

I wouldnt dare dream of policing their language like they want to do here.

Good point, but it's important to report all posts that you want mods to review. It takes just a moment and if the content is objectionable or trolling then it can be dealt with.

Mac Taylor wrote: »

What I take issue with is the incendiary language used as has been mentioned before to make a point. If similar language was used to describe vegans then I would fully expect them to stand up for their beliefs and respond regardless of what forum it was posted in.

A quick search of the word vegan on the site throws up some interesting results from various fora. How people react to such posts is up to them and if they wish to challenge such posts, or stand up for their beliefs as you say, then that is up to them but it's abundantly clear that incendiary terms for vegans and veganism are very prevalent in other fora. The V&V forum, at the very least, should not be another one of them.

Bigbooty wrote: »

You're free to post here but we shouldn't have to explain ourselves or have someone try and initiate a heated discussion about deforestation in the Amazon over a vegan burger or eating tofu just because they said "cruelty free".

This is a major problem in the forum. Vegetarians and Vegans constantly having to defend ethos and beliefs in the V&V forum. There's healthy debate and there is brigading, and observing the threads in the forum has shown that one becomes the other very quickly - and that is stopping.

Bigbooty wrote: »

we should still be allowed to discuss it without having to be held to a tribunal.

Same point as above, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum

White Clover wrote: »

there is quite a dossier of evidence, of this blatant and corrupt one sided moderation.

It is telling, to note that every Vegan contributor to this thread has praised the moderating over the last number of weeks. That in itself tells quite alot.

OK - what exactly does this tell you?

eviltwin wrote: »

Where are all the vegetarians? Why aren’t they posting? Let’s face it, it’s a very acrimonious forum at times. Why would anyone visit?

Agreed, and I hope some of the outcomes of this feedback thread can start to address this

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t want to be part of a forum where you have to defend your choices. I want to be part of a forum where I can share my experiences, ideas and, mostly importantly, good recipes.

Same point again, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum

NcdJd wrote: »

For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private.

I'm not in favor of this to be honest, but if there is enough interest it can be brought to the site admins for consideration

NcdJd wrote: »

But some of it is very insulting and there has been occasions where farmers have been called rapists and murderers and I don't think anyone should accept commentary like that.

This has not happened in the forum in recent times, if it has please report such post(s). We are trying to improve moderation and such terms are not acceptable.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I too believe moderation has improved, and it's nice to see some of the inflammatory generalisations about Irish farmers have been reigned in.

Inflammatory generalisations are not permitted, this applies equally to everyone

Deleted User wrote: »

And yes a lot of foods are imported/exported so why the focus on where V or V food comes from ?

It's a valid topic for discussion, if someone wishes to talk about it they can as long as they are mindful of the charter

Keep the feedback coming

White Clover · 28-01-2021 12:42am

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Thank you to everyone who has participated in the thread so far. From reading the last thread in detail it's clear that this one is running more smoothly and being used for it's intended purpose instead of just arguing It's also encouraging to read people's feedback and there is a genuine appetite for improving the forum. I want to collate some of the feedback so far and respond to a couple of points

Fair point - communication from the mods could be better, me in particular!

I don't want to derail the thread dealing with specific incidents in other threads but since this was brought up as feedback - the item in question had been dealt with by way of a mod note later in the thread but once it had been reported the post was snipped within hours

Infractions, warnings and bans are handed out for breaches of the rules, this is done across the board by all moderators on the site in their various fora. Is there a perception that the moderation here is light touch or hands off? I'm keen to explore this further.

It isn't, and they're not.

No topic is off limits (within site rules) but a thread dedicated to farmers vs vegans will not end well. If posters wish to discuss aspects of veganism or aspects of farming that's fine but the problems begin when threads get adversarial and it will be moderated accordingly.

Once the discussion is respectful and within the rules it's not a problem. Animal welfare is specifically mentioned in point 2 of the charter, including not shouting down people espousing their perspective

Good point, but it's important to report all posts that you want mods to review. It takes just a moment and if the content is objectionable or trolling then it can be dealt with.

A quick search of the word vegan on the site throws up some interesting results from various fora. How people react to such posts is up to them and if they wish to challenge such posts, or stand up for their beliefs as you say, then that is up to them but it's abundantly clear that incendiary terms for vegans and veganism are very prevalent in other fora. The V&V forum, at the very least, should not be another one of them.

This is a major problem in the forum. Vegetarians and Vegans constantly having to defend ethos and beliefs in the V&V forum. There's healthy debate and there is brigading, and observing the threads in the forum has shown that one becomes the other very quickly - and that is stopping.

Same point as above, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum

OK - what exactly does this tell you?

Agreed, and I hope some of the outcomes of this feedback thread can start to address this

Same point again, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum

I'm not in favor of this to be honest, but if there is enough interest it can be brought to the site admins for consideration

This has not happened in the forum in recent times, if it has please report such post(s). We are trying to improve moderation and such terms are not acceptable.

Inflammatory generalisations are not permitted, this applies equally to everyone

It's a valid topic for discussion, if someone wishes to talk about it they can as long as they are mindful of the charter

Keep the feedback coming

You have deliberately not quoted my full post so that it will be taken out of context.
Will you put up a list from the last 2 months of reported posts and actions taken on the forum, so that we can see if there is light touch moderation prevalent on one side and heavy handed ignorant Moderation on the other side?

The V&V Feedback Thread part II

Comments