Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

P.Walnuts · 26-10-2019 4:58pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Plenty of players playing in Ireland and gasp, they aren't on central contracts.

I would imagine a central contract is a good incentive to keep playing in Ireland though.

Rebelbrowser · 26-10-2019 5:12pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would it lose them customer?

People really that sad they would change networks over an ad?

Well nor would you imagine Vodafone thought their ad would directly lead to people changing their supplier either. Its all about the brand and creating goodwill towards it which in turn, over a large sample size, should lead eventually to more customers. Suffice it to say I, for one, am not feeling a whole lot of goodwill toward their brand everytime I see that ad or hear their tagline (or taglines! - through great committee thinking they ended up with two).

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 5:16pm

SA have loosened their stance on the away player rule. Maybe in the future we should too. It's a moot point anyway, we currently don't really have a glut of international class players coming through to the point where only having 4 teams becomes a bottle-neck.

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 5:22pm

If you go off to play in France/England, you miss out of tax breaks, sponsorship deals (some serious top up right there) and your career is shortened because basically you will be flogged.

is_that_so · 26-10-2019 5:27pm

shootermacg wrote: »

SA have loosened their stance on the away player rule. Maybe in the future we should too. It's a moot point anyway, we currently don't really have a glut of international class players coming through to the point where only having 4 teams becomes a bottle-neck.

SA players are basically in the same timezone and what they are losing is top quality talent. In our case it's more likely to be players unhappy with their place in the pecking order, players heading for the twilight of their careers or just greedy bast***s!

Squidgy Black · 26-10-2019 5:46pm

shootermacg wrote: »

SA have loosened their stance on the away player rule. Maybe in the future we should too. It's a moot point anyway, we currently don't really have a glut of international class players coming through to the point where only having 4 teams becomes a bottle-neck.

We definitely shouldn't, and it's completely different circumstances that lead South African players to leaving the continent altogether, not just money but also economic/political reasons that they wanted to move away. If you look at the 23 named for tomorrow, only 6/16 of the white players are playing their club rugby in South Africa.

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 5:56pm

is_that_so wrote: »

SA players are basically in the same timezone and what they are losing is top quality talent. In our case it's more likely to be players unhappy with their place in the pecking order, players heading for the twilight of their careers or just greedy bast***s!

Squidgy Black wrote: »

We definitely shouldn't, and it's completely different circumstances that lead South African players to leaving the continent altogether, not just money but also economic/political reasons that they wanted to move away. If you look at the 23 named for tomorrow, only 6/16 of the white players are playing their club rugby in South Africa.

I'm not sure what your points are here. What we have seen is players hanging on to their central contracts into old age. There's probably a happy medium
somewhere.

Don't forget people love playing for their province and country and sure, if they decide to leave in their 30's, that isn't a bad thing.

Squidgy Black · 26-10-2019 6:08pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I'm not sure what your points are here. What we have seen is players hanging on to their central contracts into old age. There's probably a happy medium
somewhere.

Don't forget people love playing for their province and country and sure, if they decide to leave in their 30's, that isn't a bad thing.

You said we should look at loosening our players playing abroad restrictions like South Africa. South Africa were pretty much forced to due to all the top talent leaving the country because of socioeconomic reasons as well as the money. England have a similar ruling on not playing anyone who plays outside their own system, Wales are now dumping money into trying to regain their players with central contracts.

Central contracts are only 3 years in length. If a player is on a central contract in his 30s, that's completely the IRFU's decision (including the coach) considering they'd have signed it only a year or two before hand. If a coach says they want X player to be a part of their plans for the world cup cycle, why on earth would we just let them walk away from the Irish system and miss out on training camps?

is_that_so · 26-10-2019 6:11pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I'm not sure what your points are here. What we have seen is players hanging on to their central contracts into old age. There's probably a happy medium
somewhere.

Don't forget people love playing for their province and country and sure, if they decide to leave in their 30's, that isn't a bad thing.

I think you're conflating different points. Mine is in relation to quality and by extension motivation for their moves. Sure let them go but there's a consequence to that.

Faugheen · 26-10-2019 6:43pm

shootermacg wrote: »

SA have loosened their stance on the away player rule. Maybe in the future we should too. It's a moot point anyway, we currently don't really have a glut of international class players coming through to the point where only having 4 teams becomes a bottle-neck.

If you ‘loosen’ the rule then more players leave the provinces.

People really have a hard time grasping that. I’m a Leinster fan before I’m an Ireland fan, like many others on here I’m sure with their respective province, and I want to see the best players playing for my province and against the best players on other provinces.

You want to play for Ireland you play in Ireland. The rule has worked and there’s nobody outside of the country it’s worth bending it for.

Sanjuro · 26-10-2019 7:21pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If you ‘loosen’ the rule then more players leave the provinces.

People really have a hard time grasping that. I’m a Leinster fan before I’m an Ireland fan, like many others on here I’m sure with their respective province, and I want to see the best players playing for my province and against the best players on other provinces.

You want to play for Ireland you play in Ireland. The rule has worked and there’s nobody outside of the country it’s worth bending it for.

Exactly this. I can't understand how this is still an argument. The IRFU aren't going to change the rule and they're correct in staying firm. Move on.

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 7:21pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If you ‘loosen’ the rule then more players leave the provinces.

People really have a hard time grasping that. I’m a Leinster fan before I’m an Ireland fan, like many others on here I’m sure with their respective province, and I want to see the best players playing for my province and against the best players on other provinces.

You want to play for Ireland you play in Ireland. The rule has worked and there’s nobody outside of the country it’s worth bending it for.

Should the means of production out strip the usage, then you sell the surplus. Anyway as I said it's a moot point, until we actually produce more players.

You'd have to think though, that the relative success of rugby in Ireland will see more youngsters taking it up.

irishbucsfan · 26-10-2019 7:24pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Should the means of production out strip the usage, then you sell the surplus.

That would only make sense if you get to choose which players stay and which players go. Its not a "surplus" if you can't afford to compete on wages. That's literally the entire reason the policy was brought in and nothing has changed.

The policy is fantastic. Its a huge part of why we punch above our weight.

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 7:35pm

From an Irish perspective, having a bigger pool of players should never been seen as a bad thing. Also, we have plenty of players who play for their provinces with no central contract, so maybe these players aren't quite the capitalists you make them out to be.

irishbucsfan · 26-10-2019 7:56pm

shootermacg wrote: »

From an Irish perspective, having a bigger pool of players should never been seen as a bad thing. Also, we have plenty of players who play for their provinces with no central contract, so maybe these players aren't quite the capitalists you make them out to be.

Why on earth would playing without a central contract mean that, totally irrelevant. It's not like the only people getting paid are those with central contracts

Having a bigger pool of players would be brilliant. But if the trade-off for that is our best players getting their heads turned then its really not worth it.

blinding · 26-10-2019 7:58pm

At least Owen Farrell can tell us ( Andy Farrell ) how England have become so good .

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 8:02pm

blinding wrote: »

At least Owen Farrell can tell us ( Andy Farrell ) how England have become so good .

It's simple really, they have a big pool of players and they all beat the crap out of each other until the cream rises to the top.

shootermacg · 26-10-2019 8:08pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why on earth would playing without a central contract mean that, totally irrelevant.

Mean what Ireland having a bigger pool of players? It should be obvious, if you have 4 provinces and another 15 players playing outside Ireland, then you have more to pick from.

Isn't it the Irish team that generates the income anyway. The whole province thing became a bit of a farce when they stopped playing their first teams in the inter provincials.

connachta · 26-10-2019 8:09pm

The only Farrell deseving a talk tonight is Tom Farrell
Will be precisely 30 y.o and should be in RWC in 2023
TBF the rest of Connacht team looks light tonight, but Tom has a good chance to impress! Dillane may too.

irishbucsfan · 26-10-2019 8:30pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Mean what Ireland having a bigger pool of players? It should be obvious, if you have 4 provinces and another 15 players playing outside Ireland, then you have more to pick from.

Isn't it the Irish team that generates the income anyway. The whole province thing became a bit of a farce when they stopped playing their first teams in the inter provincials.

No, mean “they aren’t the capitalists” that I supposedly said they are

Clegg · 26-10-2019 8:37pm

connachta wrote: »

The only Farrell deseving a talk tonight is Tom Farrell
Will be precisely 30 y.o and should be in RWC in 2023
TBF the rest of Connacht team looks light tonight, but Tom has a good chance to impress! Dillane may too.

If Farrell could actually start for Connacht we might see him making extended Ireland squads. As it stands we're praying that Ringrose doesn't get injured. He's the only quality 13 in Ireland right now

Shefwedfan · 26-10-2019 8:41pm

I think Connacht players have a great chance this sesaon if they perform in the HC....

No matter how they play in the Pro 14, it is still the Pro 14

Neil3030 · 26-10-2019 8:45pm

It'll be interesting to see how England perform in the final, and whether they emptied the tank against NZ.

It's possibly hindsight biasing things, but Ireland just seem to be a level below NZ and Eng in terms of skill and athleticism. We're wiley grafters, and will always have it in our locker to beat these teams on our day when a few things go our way. But we simply don't have the speed, power and ball handling across the team that seems to now be the standard at the very top. And I don't think you can compensate; if you're not winning the collisions and moving the ball quickly into the very short-lived space that ensues, I don't think there's any way to consistently make up for that.

And sadly it just doesn't seem to be in our DNA. We have been a fairly homogenous gene pool until quite recently, not exactly tuned to produce power and size. Our tiny population also puts us at a distinct disadvantage.

It really doesn't look good going forward. The game is moving increasingly toward NFL levels of athleticism and attrition, and I fear we'll be left behind.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-10-2019 9:25pm

Just because the wc squad didn't do better in Japan doesn't mean they weren't nevertheless the best available. Disappointment is no grounds to just chop and change the squad or go picking Connacht players just because they are playing well for Connacht. Not picking on Connacht particularly, but in truth there isn't a single player there within range of displacing one of the 1st choice Japan 23. Debatably justified when Connacht the team was winning the P14, but very few of them stuck despite being given chances. In hindsight, were Balham, Dillane etc just a misguided 'reward' chance, and the likes of persistently not picking TOH, and the speedy wingers, entirely justified despite the clamour for them at the time?

Shefwedfan · 26-10-2019 10:00pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how England perform in the final, and whether they emptied the tank against NZ.

It's possibly hindsight biasing things, but Ireland just seem to be a level below NZ and Eng in terms of skill and athleticism. We're wiley grafters, and will always have it in our locker to beat these teams on our day when a few things go our way. But we simply don't have the speed, power and ball handling across the team that seems to now be the standard at the very top. And I don't think you can compensate; if you're not winning the collisions and moving the ball quickly into the very short-lived space that ensues, I don't think there's any way to consistently make up for that.

And sadly it just doesn't seem to be in our DNA. We have been a fairly homogenous gene pool until quite recently, not exactly tuned to produce power and size. Our tiny population also puts us at a distinct disadvantage.

It really doesn't look good going forward. The game is moving increasingly toward NFL levels of athleticism and attrition, and I fear we'll be left behind.

The game is going to change.....everyone seems certain that the 50:22 rule will come in next season, below from rte news

Already mooted was a 50:22 kick proposal, which would reward a team with the throw-in from a lineout should they kick the ball from inside their own half and get it to bounce before going out in the opposition 22 or if kicked from their own 22 into touch indirectly in the opposition half.

This will make a difference and could help Ireland....our style was going to have to change so if this rule is going to come in we might as well start planning now....

In this situation it makes more sense to have two excellent kickers on the pitch, Carbery and potential another....

Shefwedfan · 26-10-2019 10:04pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Just because the wc squad didn't do better in Japan doesn't mean they weren't nevertheless the best available. Disappointment is no grounds to just chop and change the squad or go picking Connacht players just because they are playing well for Connacht. Not picking on Connacht particularly, but in truth there isn't a single player there within range of displacing one of the 1st choice Japan 23. Debatably justified when Connacht the team was winning the P14, but very few of them stuck despite being given chances. In hindsight, were Balham, Dillane etc just a misguided 'reward' chance, and the likes of persistently not picking TOH, and the speedy wingers, entirely justified despite the clamour for them at the time?

Dillane is only 25, when Toner was 25 most people said he wouldn't make it.

I really like Dillane as a player and I hope he comes on now and really pushs for a starting spot in the Irish team. I always liked him as a player. He had a great start and then went out of form for a while which was understandable but I think this is his season to push on.....

Dillane, Ryan, Henderson, Kleyn would give some nice options

AbusesToilets · 26-10-2019 10:14pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Just because the wc squad didn't do better in Japan doesn't mean they weren't nevertheless the best available. Disappointment is no grounds to just chop and change the squad or go picking Connacht players just because they are playing well for Connacht. Not picking on Connacht particularly, but in truth there isn't a single player there within range of displacing one of the 1st choice Japan 23. Debatably justified when Connacht the team was winning the P14, but very few of them stuck despite being given chances. In hindsight, were Balham, Dillane etc just a misguided 'reward' chance, and the likes of persistently not picking TOH, and the speedy wingers, entirely justified despite the clamour for them at the time?

Disagree, I think there are a bunch of them who could still be worth investing in. How much of an opportunity did any of them really get? Bealham and Aki are probably the only ones who got significant chances. It was token cap and some camp time.

Wegians89 · 26-10-2019 11:33pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Dillane is only 25, when Toner was 25 most people said he wouldn't make it.

I really like Dillane as a player and I hope he comes on now and really pushs for a starting spot in the Irish team. I always liked him as a player. He had a great start and then went out of form for a while which was understandable but I think this is his season to push on.....

Dillane, Ryan, Henderson, Kleyn would give some nice options

If a second row from Connacht breaks into that Irish squad I’d back thornbury personally. Think he offers something similar to toner but with more physicality and mobility, not as smart a line out operator but he’s young yet.

Former Former · 26-10-2019 11:38pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Dillane is only 25, when Toner was 25 most people said he wouldn't make it.

I really like Dillane as a player and I hope he comes on now and really pushs for a starting spot in the Irish team. I always liked him as a player. He had a great start and then went out of form for a while which was understandable but I think this is his season to push on.....

Dillane, Ryan, Henderson, Kleyn would give some nice options

Dillane isn't starting for Connacht at the moment AFAIK, he's got some work to do.

VayNiice · 27-10-2019 6:21am

I'm very keen to see what way Farrell moves forward with our back row. Given how young and powerful the English back row is, we'll struggle to live with them for the foreseeable unless there are some big changes.
I think of everyone, Dan Leavy's value has risen the most, despite not playing. We missed his physicality and aggression massively. But who knows if he'll ever reach the same level again after his injury?

The only other Irish player who can come close to Leavy is Ruddock imo but he seems destined to live in POMs shadow.

I despair to think of ever having to see a back row of POM, VdF and Stander again. I'm a big VdF fan but between the three of them theres zero attacking threat. I'd really like to see Farrell move on to new options at 6 and 8. POM and Stander have had a full year to revive their form and have trotted out ****e over and over. Picking a player because he's delivered against an opposition before 11 months ago and played like a drain since is not good enough. Instead of ripping the lads a new arse hole in the post match reviews and picking them again regardless they need to be dropped. That will drive performances far more.

It'd be great to see Doris, Deegan or Rea get a chance this year.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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