Proposal for sliding scale of speeding fines / points

koheim · 13-12-2018 10:28am

In Norway:
When the speed limit on the spot is 60 km/h or lower and the speed travelled is

up to 5 km/h 80 Euro
up to 10 km/h 200 Euro
up to 15 km/h 400 Euro
up to 20 km/h 550 Euro
up to 25 km/h 850 Euro
over 25 km/h 1000 Euro and loss of license for 2 years
= less road deaths

I do not see any issues with what Ross wants to bring in, it makes perfect sense to me. It is not right that you get 80 euro for driving 5 or 40 km/h over the speedlimit, it has to be staggered. It also have to hit the pocket hard because a change of behaviour is needed.

PanhardPL · 13-12-2018 4:02pm

Victor wrote: »

Approaching a junction could have a lower speed limit than going away from the junction.

Do you have the original source, so I can see what note 3 is?

http://www.speedingeurope.com/spain/

Irish Steve · 14-12-2018 1:30am

Victor wrote: »

Approaching a junction could have a lower speed limit than going away from the junction.

That's possible, but not the case on one of the local roads I am thinking of, and the issue for me is that if a driver comes into the road from the North, and is (as per the signs) subject to a 60 Kph limit, and then turns off that road onto a side road, of which there are several, and then later comes out of that side road and turns North again, that driver will not see the 50 Kph signs that are half a kilometer away, further down the road he turned off previously.

If there was to be a speed check on the road, which speed limit would then be enforced? Would it be the one that the driver saw when entering (60 Kph) or the 50 Kph limit that the driver never saw as he didn't pass the signs as part of the journey? I'd hate to be having to appear before a judge and make that case, someone who's not a local would not even realise that there are potentially 2 different speed limits in effect on the same section of road, if visibility of the sign is the requirement, and if it's not, what's the defence in that case, the only signs the driver will have seen will have been the 60 Kph signs.

Hopefully, the case would never get to court, and if it did, the judge would (rightly in my view) throw it out, as the driver never saw the lower limit signs, as he would not have passed them.

Not a good way to enforce things though.

It also raises the question of what speed limit applies on the side roads off that road, come from the North, and the estate roads are in theory 60 Kph, from the South, the limit would be 50 Kph, based on the signs that would be passed. That's clearly not viable.

Victor · 14-12-2018 7:24am

Do you want to name the road?

SC024 · 14-12-2018 9:17pm

Its a load of nonsense by a lazy attention seeking politician trying desperately to be seen to be doing something. Equivalent of a bad labourer spending the whole day sweeping room A whilst room B next door is halfway to the ceiling with rubbish is left for someone willing to sort it.

taking the easy option same as his doing away with the 3 points for 1st offence between 50 / 80 mg limits. If anyone seriously speaks out about it you will have the "somebody please think of the children" brigade out in force.

Irish Steve · 17-12-2018 2:52pm

Victor wrote: »

Do you want to name the road?

Ballybin Road, Ashbourne. Speed limit changes while on R135 (old N2) to 60 Kph. There are 50 Kph signs coming in from the 80 limit close to Height For Hire ( near the overpass on the M2). There is also a speed limit sign on one side (east) of the Ballybin road when coming on to it from the Northern end, also 60 Kph, but which way it's supposed to be facing is not clear at present.

There are 3 side roads leading into industrial estate areas, and a number of (probably private) access roads into industrial units, as well as the retail park area, and none of them have 50 Kph limit signs, so as I understand it, they inherit the limit of the road that feeds them.

Lumen · 19-12-2018 8:24am

Given that you can kill someone and still not meet the criteria for dangerous driving (instead be convicted for careless driving), getting a dangerous driving conviction for breaking a statutory limit without regard for conditions or circumstances seems ridiculously disproportionate.

Corben Dallas · 19-12-2018 7:08pm

Overly harsh and downright stupid graduated limits....

Has anyone from the RSA given any thought to the fact that if irish Motorists are constantly watching the dial for fear of going over by 10kph ( less than 6mph in old money) that they wont be keeping proper attention to the road and conditions..... ie this this might actually cause more accidents!!!!?????

....or is it a revenue generating exercise for both the Government AND the Insurance Industry.

Less flag waving crusades Ross...u wont be a Minister for much longer.

Things for Ross to do:

1 Get the darts to run every 10 mins
2 Set up a Transport Police with powers of arrest
3 ACTUALLY OPEN promised Garda Station(s).
4 Clean up the disgraceful and HUGE Anti-Social behavior problem on Luas, Dart, Commuter Rail and even Dublin Bus.
5 Offer a proper secure late night public transport service (After 12pm) which includes OUTSIDE Dublin
6 Ensure affordable Tourist Accommodation is available to Tourists (not Hostels)

... start on those, you seem to have far too much time on your hands.

magicbastarder · 19-12-2018 10:26pm

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Has anyone from the RSA given any thought to the fact that if irish Motorists are constantly watching the dial for fear of going over by 10kph ( less than 6mph in old money) that they wont be keeping proper attention to the road and conditions..... ie this this might actually cause more accidents!!!!?????

if keeping within the speed limit is that difficult for a driver that it'll tax their poor wickle brain to the point that they crash, maybe they should stay off the ****ing road.
keeping an eye on the speed does not take that much brain power. unless you've a tiny brain.

AndrewJRenko · 19-12-2018 11:01pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if keeping within the speed limit is that difficult for a driver that it'll tax their poor wickle brain to the point that they crash, maybe they should stay off the ****ing road.
keeping an eye on the speed does not take that much brain power. unless you've a tiny brain.

Many newer cars have a speed limiter built in, but I guess this would require knowing how to use the controls fully, so it's probably not a practical option.

alan partridge aha · 19-12-2018 11:24pm

When heading to Blanche today, the limit is 30kph when you come off M50 and going around to join N3. Fooking nobody does that.

Stephen15 · 19-12-2018 11:39pm

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Overly harsh and downright stupid graduated limits....

Has anyone from the RSA given any thought to the fact that if irish Motorists are constantly watching the dial for fear of going over by 10kph ( less than 6mph in old money) that they wont be keeping proper attention to the road and conditions..... ie this this might actually cause more accidents!!!!?????

....or is it a revenue generating exercise for both the Government AND the Insurance Industry.

Less flag waving crusades Ross...u wont be a Minister for much longer.

Things for Ross to do:

1 Get the darts to run every 10 mins
2 Set up a Transport Police with powers of arrest
3 ACTUALLY OPEN promised Garda Station(s).
4 Clean up the disgraceful and HUGE Anti-Social behavior problem on Luas, Dart, Commuter Rail and even Dublin Bus.
5 Offer a proper secure late night public transport service (After 12pm) which includes OUTSIDE Dublin
6 Ensure affordable Tourist Accommodation is available to Tourists (not Hostels)

... start on those, you seem to have far too much time on your hands.

And don't forget build the metro and get bus connects done.

[Deleted User] · 28-12-2018 2:50am

Over 400 people caught speeding on Stephens Day 2018

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1227/1019263-speeding/

More than 400 drivers were caught speeding on Irish roads on St Stephen's Day.

An Garda Síochána said that 42,388 vehicles were monitored yesterday as part of the Christmas and New Year road safety campaign.

Of those, 414 vehicles were found to be in excess of the speed limit.

Examples of the speeds detected include:

124km/h in a 60km/h zone N7 Palmerstown Demesne, Naas, Kildare (roadworks)

142km/h in a 100km/h zone N25, Ballinaboola, Wexford.

112km/h in an 80km/h zone R339, Oranmore, Galway

81km/h in a 50km/h zone, R245, Carrigart, Donegal

Zebra3 · 28-12-2018 8:19pm

SC024 wrote: »

Its a load of nonsense by a lazy attention seeking politician trying desperately to be seen to be doing something. Equivalent of a bad labourer spending the whole day sweeping room A whilst room B next door is halfway to the ceiling with rubbish is left for someone willing to sort it.

taking the easy option same as his doing away with the 3 points for 1st offence between 50 / 80 mg limits. If anyone seriously speaks out about it you will have the "somebody please think of the children" brigade out in force.

Won't someone think of the poor speeding motorists.

magicbastarder · 28-12-2018 11:04pm

DaCor wrote: »

Over 400 people caught speeding on Stephens Day 2018

Motorcyclist speeding at 198km/h among 476 caught yesterday

Less than one per cent of the 101,900 vehicles monitored by safety cameras detected by gardaí on Thursday as part of its Christmas and New Year road safety campaign were speeding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorcyclist-speeding-at-198km-h-among-476-caught-yesterday-1.3742975

my bull**** detector is tingling. less than one per cent were stopped, maybe.

Eric Cartman · 28-12-2018 11:32pm

whatever about the opinions on whether graduated limits should be there etc... being <10km over the limit should just be a token 50 quid fine or something, points for that is complete madness.

AndrewJRenko · 28-12-2018 11:40pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Motorcyclist speeding at 198km/h among 476 caught yesterday

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorcyclist-speeding-at-198km-h-among-476-caught-yesterday-1.3742975

my bull**** detector is tingling. less than one per cent were stopped, maybe.

The figures generally quoted by AGS are so far away from those measured by the RSA that your tingling detector is proving accurate.

On the broader issue, it looks like the wagons are circling for Ross.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/attorney-general-raises-serious-concerns-about-shane-ross-s-anti-speeding-measures-1.3741818

Infini · 29-12-2018 8:07am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

whatever about the opinions on whether graduated limits should be there etc... being <10km over the limit should just be a token 50 quid fine or something, points for that is complete madness.

We should be saving points for more serious stuff like drink driving and that. 3 points for only being a few K/M over the speed limit has always been seen as punitive and OTT. It also fails to take into consideration overtaking where you may have to go above the limit to safely overtake someone.

[Deleted User] · 29-12-2018 8:44am

Honestly, having read the last load of posts, I still don't see a single logical reason not to get more strict with those who break the speed limits. All I see are a lot of people looking for leniency for this reason or that.

Simply put, the existing measures have not been effective in curbing the tendency to break the limit for a dangerously high number of drivers.

Therefore its come time to deal with the issue in such a way as to force the most dangerous and least considerate offenders, off the road.

Lastly, Ross, for all his failings, is no fool. Propose the current method, get everyone to say "wtf r u doing, percentages r smrtr!" then simply implement the percentages version and everyone thinks "yeah we told him!!". He walks off into the sunset having over hauled the penalties for all future generations

kippy · 29-12-2018 10:15am

DaCor wrote: »

Honestly, having read the last load of posts, I still don't see a single logical reason not to get more strict with those who break the speed limits. All I see are a lot of people looking for leniency for this reason or that.

Simply put, the existing measures have not been effective in curbing the tendency to break the limit for a dangerously high number of drivers.

Therefore its come time to deal with the issue in such a way as to force the most dangerous and least considerate offenders, off the road.

Lastly, Ross, for all his failings, is no fool. Propose the current method, get everyone to say "wtf r u doing, percentages r smrtr!" then simply implement the percentages version and everyone thinks "yeah we told him!!". He walks off into the sunset having over hauled the penalties for all future generations

Implement the existing laws without over complicating for everyone. Job done.

OldMrBrennan83 · 29-12-2018 10:19am

kippy wrote: »

Implement the existing laws without over complicating for everyone. Job done.

There's nothing complicated about not speeding.

monument · 29-12-2018 10:19am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

whatever about the opinions on whether graduated limits should be there etc... being <10km over the limit should just be a token 50 quid fine or something, points for that is complete madness.

It depends the context of the road. 10km/h over 80km/h or 100km/h or 120km/h it’s really much... but...

10km/h over the 30km/h or 50km/h speed limits are proven to notability change the outcomes of reaction time and breaking distance and the outcome for pedestrians and cyclists

See attached images.

kippy · 29-12-2018 10:20am

Patww79 wrote: »

There's nothing complicated about not speeding.

Exactly. The existing laws do this perfectly..... Christ.
A few groups have already come out advising there may be issues with graduated scales. I can see why.
Keep it simple as it is now and ensure proper enforcement.

I've driven around 1000k in the past few days. No checkpoints for speed or alcohol anywhere I've been. I've been breath tested once in over 20 years of driving. Granted I've seen on average a speed trap of some sort once every month I would think. However noe of that I'd adequate enforcement of current laws.

mvl · 29-12-2018 10:28am

when driving long distance, my GPS speed and the car speedometer are not showing same value.

... so please excuse my ignorance - but which is closer to what they measure for speeding points ?

[Deleted User] · 29-12-2018 10:40am

kippy wrote: »

Exactly. The existing laws do this perfectly..... Christ.
A few groups have already come out advising there may be issues with graduated scales. I can see why.
Keep it simple as it is now and ensure proper enforcement.

I've driven around 1000k in the past few days. No checkpoints for speed or alcohol anywhere I've been. I've been breath tested once in over 20 years of driving. Granted I've seen on average a speed trap of some sort once every month I would think. However noe of that I'd adequate enforcement of current laws.

This is a bogus argument and here's why....

Let's take Galway as an example. Including motorway, national primary, secondary, regional and local roads, it contains over 6,000km of roads.

Please explain how the kind of enforcement you expect is to be done while considering

1. All other policing requirements
2. Staffing levels
3. Funding everything

magicbastarder · 29-12-2018 10:42am

Your speedo will overstate your speed. It's to allow for variances in tyre size, pressure, etc.; so I think the regs are that it cannot understate your speed but can overstate by up to 10%.

kippy · 29-12-2018 10:56am

DaCor wrote: »

This is a bogus argument and here's why....

Let's take Galway as an example. Including motorway, national primary, secondary, regional and local roads, it contains over 6,000km of roads.

Please explain how the kind of enforcement you expect is to be done while considering

1. All other policing requirements
2. Staffing levels
3. Funding everything

If it's a bogus argument I don't see why you are calling for these new laws to come into effect as they won't be enforced fully either, changing absolutely nothing just introducing further complications for the legal profession to charge more for.

How to increase enforcement? Surely that's blatently obvious? I'll point it out, more automated/private Gatso vans (also checking for tax/nct, less paperwork for Gardai to have to process I know this is slowly happening with more civis being hired.
A bit of investment in technology.

I am not looking for enforcement on every corner, just a better hit rate of what my experience has been in twenty years.

The last two responses to my post perfectly sum up why introducing these laws to replace the existing ones is absolutely pointless and if anything overcomplicates to the point of introducing further opportunities for errors in paperwork.

Homer · 29-12-2018 11:00am

mvl wrote: »

when driving long distance, my GPS speed and the car speedometer are not showing same value.

... so please excuse my ignorance - but which is closer to what they measure for speeding points ?

Your gps will always be more accurate. So many variables can affect the speedo in the car. Nearly always reads over what you are actually doing.

Lumen · 29-12-2018 1:15pm

Interesting and obvious how closely correlated roads policing numbers are to careless/dangerous driving citations in the UK.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/103851/how-have-traffic-police-cuts-hit-uk-roads-we-talk-to-the-experts

Meanwhile traffic gardai numbers in Ireland going up strongly, from 700 to over 1000 in the next few years.

Anyone got stats for Irish careless/ dangerous driving cases?

AndrewJRenko · 29-12-2018 2:11pm

Infini wrote: »

We should be saving points for more serious stuff like drink driving and that. 3 points for only being a few K/M over the speed limit has always been seen as punitive and OTT. It also fails to take into consideration overtaking where you may have to go above the limit to safely overtake someone.

Of you could just stay within the limit and not overtake, maybe?

Proposal for sliding scale of speeding fines / points

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