Deposit being held by "Landlord"

Lachako · 11-02-2020 11:30pm #1

Hi

So I've come across an unusual situation that a colleague is encountering and am looking for any constructive advice.

A friend moved into a house (we'll call him Tom), rented a room, paid a deposit by bank transfer, no lease was signed. The person who let Tom the room (we'll call him Dick) said initially that a relative of his was the landlord but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case due to property ownership records I've seen. After a period of time and some unusual behaviour and intimidation from Dick towards Tom, Tom decides to move out. Tom leaves the place spotless and moves out, returning the key to Dick. Dick says that Tom's deposit will be returned in due course.

For the next several weeks Tom tries to contact Dick by text and phone to chase up the deposit but there is no sign of it forthcoming. And that is the situation my work colleague is in and I'm wondering if anyone has encountered this situation (or similar) and does anyone have any helpful advice?

What is definitely known:
1. The property is a registered let with the PRTB. Unfortunately the PRTB won't divulge who the registered landlord is due to GDPR I guess, so I can't cross check this against the names I have as the current registered owners of the property.

2. A complaint can be raised with the PRTB but I'm unsure if they have jurisdiction over someone not returning a deposit when they may either be illegally or possibly legally subletting (without giving leases). Also I've heard that the PRTB take a long time to investigate complaints so they don't fill me with confidence?

3. This isn't the first person that Dick has done this to with at least four and possibly as many as ten (or even more) people having been caught out by his antics.

4. Rooms to let in the property are routinely advertised on Daft but the address is deliberately inaccurate (using a nearby street address instead) and Dick does not use his name on the advert but instead a pseudonym.

5. The Gardai won't get involved as it's a Civil matter. If this is a recurring scam when does it beccome fraud and a criminal matter?

6. The account that the deposit was paid into is in Dick's name as far as I know so I think his identity is legitimate as this name is also on an ID document he left lying around

I'm thinking of contacting Threshold for advice but am unsure if they are relevant in these instances? Also, there's the possibility of going the Solicitor or small claims route but I'm not 100% certain of Dick's identity so that might be a waste of time, especially if he was just to up sticks and disappear at the threat of legal action.

I realise this is a stupid situation to have got into and perhaps even a little far fetched but are there any (legal) ideas on how to help Tom get his deposit back?

Thanks

Assetbacked · 11-02-2020 11:38pm

Lachako wrote: »

Hi

So I've come across an unusual situation that a colleague is encountering and am looking for any constructive advice.

A friend moved into a house (we'll call him Tom), rented a room, paid a deposit by bank transfer, no lease was signed. The person who let Tom the room (we'll call him Dick) said initially that a relative of his was the landlord but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case due to property ownership records I've seen. After a period of time and some unusual behaviour and intimidation from Dick towards Tom, Tom decides to move out. Tom leaves the place spotless and moves out, returning the key to Dick. Dick says that Tom's deposit will be returned in due course.

For the next several weeks Tom tries to contact Dick by text and phone to chase up the deposit but there is no sign of it forthcoming. And that is the situation my work colleague is in and I'm wondering if anyone has encountered this situation (or similar) and does anyone have any helpful advice?

What is definitely known:
1. The property is a registered let with the PRTB. Unfortunately the PRTB won't divulge who the registered landlord is due to GDPR I guess, so I can't cross check this against the names I have as the current registered owners of the property.

2. A complaint can be raised with the PRTB but I'm unsure if they have jurisdiction over someone not returning a deposit when they may either be illegally or possibly legally subletting (without giving leases). Also I've heard that the PRTB take a long time to investigate complaints so they don't fill me with confidence?

3. This isn't the first person that Dick has done this to with at least four and possibly as many as ten (or even more) people having been caught out by his antics.

4. Rooms to let in the property are routinely advertised on Daft but the address is deliberately inaccurate (using a nearby street address instead) and Dick does not use his name on the advert but instead a pseudonym.

5. The Gardai won't get involved as it's a Civil matter. If this is a recurring scam when does it beccome fraud and a criminal matter?

6. The account that the deposit was paid into is in Dick's name as far as I know so I think his identity is legitimate as this name is also on an ID document he left lying around

I'm thinking of contacting Threshold for advice but am unsure if they are relevant in these instances? Also, there's the possibility of going the Solicitor or small claims route but I'm not 100% certain of Dick's identity so that might be a waste of time, especially if he was just to up sticks and disappear at the threat of legal action.

I realise this is a stupid situation to have got into and perhaps even a little far fetched but are there any (legal) ideas on how to help Tom get his deposit back?

Thanks

Well, it's a civil matter so off to the courts Tom can go. Documenting all attempts to engage with Dick and showing evidence of exhausting efforts to contact Dick are a prerequisite to successfully pursuing the legal route.

Without doing anything illegal, if I had an address and contact details, including details of the identity for Dick, I would use this information to my advantage in attempting to seek a resolution to the situation. Without the identity, maybe try http://www.cityinvestigations.ie/our-services/legal-investigations

Lachako · 12-02-2020 12:10am

Assetbacked wrote: »

Without doing anything illegal, if I had an address and contact details, including details of the identity for Dick, I would use this information to my advantage in attempting to seek a resolution to the situation. Without the identity, maybe try http://www.cityinvestigations.ie/our-services/legal-investigations

Can you expand on ideas to help seek a resolution? Even by PM would be great, thanks.

Assetbacked · 12-02-2020 12:23am

Lachako wrote: »

Can you expand on ideas to help seek a resolution? Even by PM would be great, thanks.

Ideas? Well, I would strongly advise against harassment, intimidation whether online or in person, especially if co-ordinated between a number of people (real or imaginary) against Dick. I suppose being more creative within the confines of the law is something Tom should have a think about, remembering that the more legitimacy which can be associated with Dick's life and business interests, the more he has to lose by his illegitimate behaviour becoming known to those with whom he does legitimate business.

Gumbo · 12-02-2020 12:49am

RTB will release the name of the owner of you fill in the required form and have a genuine reason to get it.

I got it for a few properties over the years.
The form is on their website.

Lachako · 12-02-2020 12:58am

kceire wrote: »

RTB will release the name of the owner of you fill in the required form and have a genuine reason to get it.

I got it for a few properties over the years.
The form is on their website.

How long did it take to get this info in your exerience? Thanks

the_syco · 12-02-2020 1:35am

If the deposit is less than €2,000 and you find out that Dick subletted the room to Tom, Tom can go after Dick via the Small Claims Court to get his deposit back.

Lachako · 12-02-2020 5:30pm

Do you know if the small claims court is a valid option even if Tom was effectively a licensee of Dick (no lease signed between them) as opposed to a tenant? Thanks to all who have shared their knowledge so far!

Claw Hammer · 12-02-2020 6:01pm

Start a case in the RTB against the registered owner. you will soon find out who the landlord is.

12-02-2020 11:49pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Start a case in the RTB against the registered owner. you will soon find out who the landlord is.

You think so? by which I mean you would think so,

Del2005 · 13-02-2020 4:43am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Start a case in the RTB against the registered owner. you will soon find out who the landlord is.

Tom was a licencee of the tenant so it's nothing to do with the RTB. Small claims is Tom's only option, but getting a judgement is the easy part whem someone doesn't want to pay.

Lachako · 13-02-2020 8:55am

Del2005 wrote: »

Tom was a licencee of the tenant so it's nothing to do with the RTB. Small claims is Tom's only option, but getting a judgement is the easy part whem someone doesn't want to pay.

Thanks! I was unsure of the PRTB's powers when it came to protecting licensees versus tenants. I was also acutely aware that going the legal route might be fine on paper (to secure a judgement) but even if this was successful, actually getting the money back from Dick might be a bit harder if he still doesn't want to pay! Then there's also the possibility that Dick's real identity may not actually be what he has let on that it is, which might scupper any attempt to nail him via the small claims court (like chasing a shadow).

The more I look at this the more I realise that Dick has concocted a well devised plan to screw people out of money! Definitely not his first rodeo but there has to be a way to nail him (without breaking any laws)...

Dial Hard · 13-02-2020 9:02am

Why doesn't Tom just call around to the house and ask for his deposit back in person? Much harder to fob off someone who's standing right in front of you.

FishOnABike · 13-02-2020 11:49am

Has Dick replied to any of Tom's texts and acknowledged that he has Tom's deposit and/or intends to return it at some stage? Is there any proof that Dick ever took a deposit?

Cuddlesworth · 13-02-2020 1:28pm

Lachako wrote: »

3. This isn't the first person that Dick has done this to with at least four and possibly as many as ten (or even more) people having been caught out by his antics.

4. Rooms to let in the property are routinely advertised on Daft but the address is deliberately inaccurate (using a nearby street address instead) and Dick does not use his name on the advert but instead a pseudonym.

5. The Gardai won't get involved as it's a Civil matter. If this is a recurring scam when does it beccome fraud and a criminal matter?

6. The account that the deposit was paid into is in Dick's name as far as I know so I think his identity is legitimate as this name is also on an ID document he left lying around

He was a licensee, RTB holds no power.

If he can, getting the details of the other people(names, numbers, addresses) and going back to the gardai looking for a possible fraud case would be best case scenario.

If he is repeatedly renting rooms, driving tenants out and keeping the money, with multiple cases then they might just do their jobs. Saying he has taken 500 quid might be a bit different to saying he has taking 10k from x number of people.

13-02-2020 1:52pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Start a case in the RTB against the registered owner. you will soon find out who the landlord is.

I think this is wrong, even in my experience, the RTB who are reluctant to even tell you they will supply landlord details if you apply for it correctly, may still not take a case against a LANLDORD. I cannot see how a case can be taken against a tenant, by what is essentially a 3rd party through the RTB, I dont think they will do it.
You cannot take a case against the registered owner? only the landlord, they may be the same in most cases, but in some, not. You can only take a case against the landlord through the RTB if the landlord is registered.

It seems a bit mad, but there are many holes in the RTB and you can come up against them in the less usual cases, but which are often the worst offenders.

kceire wrote: »

RTB will release the name of the owner of you fill in the required form and have a genuine reason to get it.

I got it for a few properties over the years.
The form is on their website.

Again, maybe a typo, RTB will release the name of the landlord, maybe, its at their discretion, they wont release the name of an owner, as most likely they wont have it unless the landlord is the same person, usually the case, but not always.
The thing is, this person has no case against the owner or landlord whether they are the same person or not.

Small claims seems to be the route, assuming there are details or the person complies and responds,

What Im curious about is the initial comment that the landlord and tenant are related, how would ownership documents that are available to the OP likely to confirm or refute this?? there really is only one ownership document that could be available.

smeraduibhe · 16-02-2020 2:50pm

Lachako wrote: »

Thanks! I was unsure of the PRTB's powers when it came to protecting licensees versus tenants. I was also acutely aware that going the legal route might be fine on paper (to secure a judgement) but even if this was successful, actually getting the money back from Dick might be a bit harder if he still doesn't want to pay! Then there's also the possibility that Dick's real identity may not actually be what he has let on that it is, which might scupper any attempt to nail him via the small claims court (like chasing a shadow).

The more I look at this the more I realise that Dick has concocted a well devised plan to screw people out of money! Definitely not his first rodeo but there has to be a way to nail him (without breaking any laws)...

Even with the shortage of rental units, someone looking to part with money for a place to live in might want to seriously consider having something in writing before moving in. This may not help Tom now but might prevent Dick from "allegeldly" trying to rip off or scam Tom out of his few bob.

17-02-2020 11:40am

to be plain, while I have seen problems with licencees that could have cost money which would have been legitimate to deduct from a deposit,usually its either not the case or any problems are noticeable instantly, its reasonable for a licencee to receive their deposit upon handing over keys. It would be reasonable to hold a deposit for a set time in the case of a tenant who has more access to a larger portion of a dwelling than a licencee and it has to be checked for faults or damage plus tenants have a very supportive voice in the form of the rtb. Id be walking away with keys until I was refunded or in fact I would decline to leave but demand a refund from that date.

JustAThought · 17-02-2020 11:47am

seems like ‘ ‘your friend’ tom’ was involved in the rent a room scheme & sounds like ‘tim’ didnt get on with the ‘housemate’ I wonder did he give notice in writing of his intention to leaave and give a months notice? Perhaps this is why his deposit is being withheld. As for the alleged ten other people you know intimately about who this has also happened to.. it all sounds a bit implausible. If a contract was signed with the RTB then both sides would have copies of it containing each others details. A lot in this story of 11 ‘friends’ wronged dosn’t ring true.

Kangaroolala · 17-02-2020 3:40pm

Tom can definitely get back his deposit if he has a solid lease signed or any other proof which can proved the transaction of the amount.

JustAThought · 17-02-2020 11:49pm

Kangaroolala wrote: »

Tom can definitely get back his deposit if he has a solid lease signed or any other proof which can proved the transaction of the amount.

Not if ‘Tom’ did not give fair notice, has outstanding bills or service useage bills (wifi, netflix contracts etc) owes rent or money or did any damage to the property.

Rubberchikken · 21-02-2020 2:44am

Sorry for jumping into this post but something mentioned above made me want to ask -

what if the tenant signs contract, pays months rent plus deposit, moves in and in one night discovers that due to weed being smoked in the house, contrary to no illegal drugs clause in contract, and having raised it with landlord, he is unwilling to return deposit and/or even a portion of rent.

Does the tenant have any recourse? They are not willing to go back to room/house as unwilling to inhale something that even exposed to for one night affected their chest, plus very unwilling to appear at work with the stink if weed on their clothes.

Del2005 · 22-02-2020 3:44pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Sorry for jumping into this post but something mentioned above made me want to ask -

what if the tenant signs contract, pays months rent plus deposit, moves in and in one night discovers that due to weed being smoked in the house, contrary to no illegal drugs clause in contract, and having raised it with landlord, he is unwilling to return deposit and/or even a portion of rent.

Does the tenant have any recourse? They are not willing to go back to room/house as unwilling to inhale something that even exposed to for one night affected their chest, plus very unwilling to appear at work with the stink if weed on their clothes.

They are licencees and have no rights in the residential tenancies acts but they still have access to our legal system using civil processes, getting a judgement is easy in our legal system getting satisfaction isn't.

Deposit being held by "Landlord"

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