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16-02-2020, 15:14   #61
jm08
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Fair point but there is also the point that SF were not even there to have any practical say or influence.

If Sunningdale had succeeded, nationalists would not have had reason to support the armed struggle. The failure of Sunningdale was the proof that unionists wouldn't share power through peaceful means.

Edit: The 1916 Rising didn't have popular support. The actions of the British Government (execution of leaders) made sure that republicans then won popular support.

Last edited by jm08; 16-02-2020 at 15:18.
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16-02-2020, 15:16   #62
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If Sunningdale had succeeded, nationalists would not have had reason to support the armed struggle. The failure of Sunningdale was the proof that unionists wouldn't share power through peaceful means.
Or maybe they just needed a bit of time to mellow and think it over?
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16-02-2020, 15:40   #63
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The British Army killed 13 people on a civil rights march in Derry. They caused the 'disorder'. They tried to restore order by introducing Internment, then there were the hunger strikes, but every peaceful solution proposed was 'Out, Out, Out' from the British Government. Meanwhile, it was 'Never, Never, Never' from Paisley's lot.

Talk about rewriting history.

One thing the last couple of years has shown is that John Hume and Seamus Mallon would not have achieved peace by dialogue when you look at the intrangience of the DUP/loyalists over everything.
The British army moved in and stopped the attacks on Catholics in 1969. Bloody Sunday was 1972. If the IRA had not re-started their campaign of ambushing soldiers and police, John Hume could have achieved peace and human rights.
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16-02-2020, 15:58   #64
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The British army moved in and stopped the attacks on Catholics in 1969. Bloody Sunday was 1972. If the IRA had not re-started their campaign of ambushing soldiers and police, John Hume could have achieved peace and human rights.
Wasn't Hume a great admirer of Gandhi's passive resistance? That was the route he wanted to go down but it was shattered by the headbangers.
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16-02-2020, 16:37   #65
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The Plantation of Ulster solved two problems for the Crown. Both the people of Ulster and those of the Scotland lowland border area loved nothing better than a fight. It solved two problems for the Crown. Put them together and let them fight it out between them.


Here is a description from an old Irish poem about the Province of Ulster.


''Ulster in the north is the seat of battle valour, of haughtiness, strife, boasting; the men of Ulster are the fiercest warriors of all Ireland, and the queens and goddesses of Ulster are associated with battle and death''.


You can see the description of the rest of the provinces here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland
But Ireland was occupied before then. They didnt invade to place a few naughty scots out of the way to cause mayhem.

Prince Philip of Spain wanted to invade Britain a hundred years before then.

You are lucky he never invaded Ireland considering what he did elsewhere.
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16-02-2020, 16:46   #66
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The British army moved in and stopped the attacks on Catholics in 1969. Bloody Sunday was 1972. If the IRA had not re-started their campaign of ambushing soldiers and police, John Hume could have achieved peace and human rights.

This is correct the Catholics were helpless. Whole streets of families thrown out onto the streets if they were lucky and all of the streets of houses were set ablaze. If you they didnt move they were burnt out. There is lots of film footage of this.

The catholic people turned to the IRA so called commanders for help and they did nothing. They did not help anyone at all and they were given the name by their own people of IRA = I Ran Away. All this is well documented.

The police couldnt help they were over run.

So a Scotsman sent in the British Army not to control Ulster but solely to protect the Catholics from being burnt out and killed by the Protestant gangs.

No English were involved in this decision. The man in charge the Home secretary was a Scotsman called James Callaghan who later became a disastrous Prime Minister.

How it turned into a war by the IRA on the very people who were protecting them I have never understood unless it was a few IRA men who had to prove they hadnt ran away..I dont know.
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16-02-2020, 21:48   #67
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AH stuff. Why is this even in here - just asking?
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17-02-2020, 00:32   #68
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That's all pointless speculation which adds nothing to the discussion. Your comments on Co. Cork towns would be better posted in Tripadvisor. If, if if....Your aunt would be your uncle in certain circumstances,

P.S. Are you sure North Kerry wouldn't be Alabama? Think Danny Healy Rae.
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Danny Healy Rae lives in South Kerry - get your facts right
Here are some facts for you:

Kerry was established as a single constituency by the Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Act 2013.The new constituency replaces the constituencies of Kerry North–West Limerick and Kerry South. It comprises the whole of County Kerry with the Limerick part of the Kerry North–West Limerick transferred to Limerick County.

Now to get back to your original post and your snide reference to Bandon and Kinsale:

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if the 6 counties of Munster remained in British hands instead of the six counties in Ulster be interesting to see what way it would have turned out .
The people of Bandon and kinsale etc probably be happy even Michael Martin I’m sure !
I’d think north kerry though would be the south arnagh of those six counties !!
Ellis and Cullinane are not the only ones whose masks have slipped in recent days.
The only thing that distinguishes Bandon and Kinsale from other Munster towns is the fact that they are proportionately the most Protestant towns in Munster.
Next time you attend Wolfe Tone day in Bodenstown you can console yourself in the knowledge that there are other "republicans" besides yourself who confuse republicanism and sectarianism.

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17-02-2020, 10:35   #69
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Or maybe they just needed a bit of time to mellow and think it over?

Who needed time to think it over? Unionism rejected it by voting for anti-Sunningdale candidates (anti-Sunningdale candidates won all of the seats with the exception of one - Paddy Devlin's seat in Belfast). Then there was the general strike which closed down Northern Ireland's electricity supply. The reason Sunningdale collapsed is solely down to unionism.
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17-02-2020, 10:39   #70
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Who needed time to think it over? Unionism rejected it by voting for anti-Sunningdale candidates (anti-Sunningdale candidates won all of the seats with the exception of one - Paddy Devlin's seat in Belfast). Then there was the general strike which closed down Northern Ireland's electricity supply. The reason Sunningdale collapsed is solely down to unionism.
What I meant was the transition from the reaction to Sunningdale to accepting the GFA. Plus you can't forget that at least the SDLP were trying back in the 70's, the bullet was the only thing SF knew then. SF needed time to cop themselves on gradually as well.

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17-02-2020, 10:44   #71
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The British army moved in and stopped the attacks on Catholics in 1969. Bloody Sunday was 1972. If the IRA had not re-started their campaign of ambushing soldiers and police, John Hume could have achieved peace and human rights.

According to wiki:

''Catholics welcomed the soldiers when they first arrived in August 1969,[13] but Catholic hostility to the British military's deployment increased after incidents such as the Falls Curfew (1970), Operation Demetrius (1971), the Ballymurphy Massacre (1971) and Bloody Sunday (1972)''
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17-02-2020, 10:53   #72
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According to wiki:

''Catholics welcomed the soldiers when they first arrived in August 1969,[13] but Catholic hostility to the British military's deployment increased after incidents such as the Falls Curfew (1970), Operation Demetrius (1971), the Ballymurphy Massacre (1971) and Bloody Sunday (1972)''
Its very easy to form opinions of events 50 years on. Especially from history clips.

The point is the British soldiers were sent there to protect the Catholics and they did and it was welcomed.

But 'IF' the reason for the searches and arrests of Catholics was to stop the IRA from reforming and arming themselves. Then it must have been to prevent further violence and reprisals which was part of their job.

They were never sent their to suppress the Irish people or victimise Catholics or occupy another country.

I suppose you had to be their there and then and see what the reactions were to whatever was going on.
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17-02-2020, 10:59   #73
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This is correct the Catholics were helpless. Whole streets of families thrown out onto the streets if they were lucky and all of the streets of houses were set ablaze. If you they didnt move they were burnt out. There is lots of film footage of this.

And?


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The catholic people turned to the IRA so called commanders for help and they did nothing. They did not help anyone at all and they were given the name by their own people of IRA = I Ran Away. All this is well documented.

Ever hear of the Battle of the Bogside and who fought in that? No one ran away in that fight. Belfast was different in that the catholic population was split (just look at where the Peace Walls are) and where catholics criticised the IRA for running away.


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The police couldn't help they were over run.
The RUC were attacking the catholics!



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So a Scotsman sent in the British Army not to control Ulster but solely to protect the Catholics from being burnt out and killed by the Protestant gangs.

No, the Stormont Goverment requested the British Army to come to Northern Ireland.


Quote:
No English were involved in this decision. The man in charge the Home secretary was a Scotsman called James Callaghan who later became a disastrous Prime Minister.

I'm sure the British Prime Minister and Westminister Parliament would have had something to say about sending troops into Northern Ireland to restore law and order.


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How it turned into a war by the IRA on the very people who were protecting them I have never understood unless it was a few IRA men who had to prove they hadnt ran away..I dont know.

The use of CS gas on catholics by the British Army and Internment was a major factor in the Provos winning general support. Look up 'Operation Demetrius'.
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17-02-2020, 11:07   #74
jm08
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Its very easy to form opinions of events 50 years on. Especially from history clips.

The point is the British soldiers were sent there to protect the Catholics and they did and it was welcomed.

But 'IF' the reason for the searches and arrests of Catholics was to stop the IRA from reforming and arming themselves. Then it must have been to prevent further violence and reprisals which was part of their job.

They were never sent their to suppress the Irish people or victimise Catholics or occupy another country.

I suppose you had to be their there and then and see what the reactions were to whatever was going on.

I have lived through the Troubles, so I'm not learning from history clips. I saw it on tv screens every night of the week.


The IRA were a fairly harmless outfit up to 1970. The Battle of the Bogside changed all that.
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17-02-2020, 11:26   #75
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I have lived through the Troubles, so I'm not learning from history clips. I saw it on tv screens every night of the week.


The IRA were a fairly harmless outfit up to 1970. The Battle of the Bogside changed all that.
Then you are the same as me. The I Ran Away is quite documented even with interviews of alleged IRA men at the time.

As you know the troubles started before 1969 and it was 1969 when it got so bad that the troops were sent there for Catholics protection. You mention 1970 that was almost one year later.

Also as you will know. 'Terrorism' was the new thing then that no governments had any knowledge of and little ways of dealing with. The PLO and all the others were hijacking planes etc.

Together with that you had nut cases like Idi Amin and Colonel Gadaffi who hated Britain and the west and were only too pleased to supply anyone who said they were against them with anything they wanted. Then the PLO trained them in the desert.

It was a situation which was going to explode and the rest is history.

Over 3500 deaths and more maimed and whole families and communities destroyed.

None of it was an 'Invading' army. It was down to a whole lot of circumstances all coming together at that time.

You can try and blame who you want. All parties on all sides were just reacting to what was going on around them and 'others' were only too pleased to stoke the fires.
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