Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Property Being Sold with a Life Tenancy in place

«134

Comments

  • #2
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    The current occupier can remain until they're taken out feet-first.


  • #3
    Taylor365
    Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭Taylor365


    Graham wrote: »
    The current occupier can remain until they're taken out feet-first.
    Dropkick the estate agent?


  • #4
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Taylor365 wrote: »
    Dropkick the estate agent?

    So if you by the house, you have to rent it out until the current tenant dies???


  • #5
    TheSheriff
    Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭TheSheriff


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    So if you by the house, you have to rent it out until the current tenant dies???

    Its an interesting one, also says "rent free" in the add, so not sure if that's part of the legal agreement.

    Good location tough.


  • #6
    retalivity
    Registered Users Posts: 13,994 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    TheSheriff wrote: »
    Its an interesting one, also says "rent free" in the add, so not sure if that's part of the legal agreement.

    Good location tough.

    It reads like you can buy it now, collect no rent or evict the tenant until they die. So youre investing 200k into a 2bed house in drumcondra you may not use for 2-20 years...


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    retalivity wrote: »
    It reads like you can buy it now, collect no rent or evict the tenant until they die. So youre investing 200k into a 2bed house in drumcondra you may not use for 2-20 years...

    Man there is something very morbid about that.

    I guess it is nice that the Tennant's home is protected. You'd be doing a decent thing....


  • #8
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,155 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    the legal documents are not online for that property yet. By definition, if there is a tenancy there should be rent payable. There could be a righr of residence for life with no rent payable which would be a different thing. No bank will give a mortgage on it either way so a cash purchaser will have to buy it and resolve the tenancy.


  • #9
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,155 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The legal documents are not online for that property yet. By definition, if there is a tenancy there should be rent payable. There could be a right of residence for life with no rent payable which would be a different thing. No bank will give a mortgage on it either way so a cash purchaser will have to buy it and resolve the tenancy.


  • #10
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,345 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    the legal documents are not online for that property yet. By definition, if there is a tenancy there should be rent payable. There could be a righr of residence for life with no rent payable which would be a different thing. No bank will give a mortgage on it either way so a cash purchaser will have to buy it and resolve the tenancy.
    "The vendor has advised no rent is being received and the property is sold subject to a life tenancy"



    This does not mean, necessarily, that no rent is due. Just that it's not being paid.
    It's a heads up to a legal battle to evict. Or a warning that a "for life right to remain" exists. Do your legal background checks before purchasing. Could be a good one for a cash buyer if you have a further 20-40k for a legal battle inbuilt into the price of TCO.


  • #11
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    You're assuming the current occupier has no legal basis for their life tenancy.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Thread split


  • #13
    Gaillimh1976
    Registered Users Posts: 738 ✭✭✭Gaillimh1976


    Used to be common in inheritance cases

    My Dad inherited his parents house, but his sister has a life tenancy

    She gets to live in the house rent free but he owns it


  • #14
    JohnnyChimpo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo


    retalivity wrote: »
    It reads like you can buy it now, collect no rent or evict the tenant until they die. So youre investing 200k into a 2bed house in drumcondra you may not use for 2-20 years...

    Reminds me of the lawyer in Paris who bought an apartment from a 90yo woman through the viager system - where they have to wait until tenant dies to assume ownership.

    Unfortunately for him that woman was Jeanne Calment - the so-called "world's oldest woman" who died at a purported age of 122 - she lived for another 32 years and ended up outliving the lawyer by 2 years :pac: . As the kids would say: owned.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33326787


  • #15
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Thanks JC, I've been trying to remember the name of the French system all morning.


  • #16
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Gaillimh1976 wrote: »
    Used to be common in inheritance cases

    My Dad inherited his parents house, but his sister has a life tenancy

    She gets to live in the house rent free but he owns it
    Without wanting to derail, who pays for upkeep, repairs, insurance, property tax etc. if it’s your dad, jeez, who’d want a house like that. He may never get any benefit from it.


  • #17
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    emeldc wrote: »
    Without wanting to derail, who pays for upkeep, repairs, insurance, property tax etc. if it’s your dad, jeez, who’d want a house like that. He may never get any benefit from it.

    Was the sister the favourite child by any chance?


  • #18
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Was the sister the favourite child by any chance?

    Surely shed have been given the house it that was the case?


  • #19
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Surely shed have been given the house it that was the case?

    Unless it was a punishment for her brother :pac:


  • #20
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,918 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    A life tenancy doesn't mean a tenancy in the usual sense. It's an equitable interest the life tenant has in the property that ends when they die. You would have to review the legal documents to see the terms of the agreement and to see if there was any payment agreed. Usually there isnt.

    They cannot assign the life interest to anyone else and they cannot gift it to anyone in a will. When they die the life interest terminates.


  • #21
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Gaillimh1976 wrote: »
    Used to be common in inheritance cases

    My Dad inherited his parents house, but his sister has a life tenancy

    She gets to live in the house rent free but he owns it
    This.

    A "life tenancy" has nothing to do with any landlord and tenant relationship, lease, rental agreement or anything like that. The life tenant of a property has the right to occupy it (or to let out out, or leave it vacant, or . . .) for as long as they live. On their death the property will pass to the "reversioner" or "remainderman" - these terms mean the same thing.

    The life tenant is said to have a "life interest" in the property. The reversioner's interest in the property is called the "reversion".
    emeldc wrote: »
    Without wanting to derail, who pays for upkeep, repairs, insurance, property tax etc. if it’s your dad, jeez, who’d want a house like that. He may never get any benefit from it.
    The life tenant is supposed to maintain the property in the condition it was in when he acquired his life interest, and to insure it, and pay the usual outgoings, so that it handed on in the same condition and with no liablities to the reversioner when the time comes.

    In practice, though, the life tenant has a limited interest in maintaining the property - he doesn't suffer if it declines in value, so his interest lies in doing as little as possible to it to keep it habitable for himself. He certainly doesn't want to invest in any kind of upgrade like a new roof or windows, rewiring, moderning kitchen or bathroom, etc. Plus, life tenancies are very often created by Will for a dependent who doesn't have great earning capacity and couldn't house themselves, so they may not have a lot of money to spend on maintenance, etc. So houses held on a life tenancy tend to get tattier and tattier.

    In this case, it's the reversion in the house that's for sale. That has a a very uncertain value, because you don't know how long the life tenant might live, or what kind of deterioriation in the property might occur over that time.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    If you look at the company that is advertising it, they are for property investors not people looking for a family home. They've a bunch of properties on their website with tenants in place and a estimates on how much you can max the rent out to.

    the legal docs are on their website but you have to register for an account to view them:

    https://bidx1.com/en/en-ie/auction/property/42657


  • #23
    Thud
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭Thud


    bbc story on viager

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33326787


  • #24
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    This.

    A "life tenancy" has nothing to do with any landlord and tenant relationship, lease, rental agreement or anything like that. The life tenant of a property has the right to occupy it (or to let out out, or leave it vacant, or . . .) for as long as they live. On their death the property will pass to the "reversioner" or "remainderman" - these terms mean the same thing.

    The life tenant is said to have a "life interest" in the property. The reversioner's interest in the property is called the "reversion".
    It sounds like the seller is giving up on the property, and just wants some cash for their investment?


  • #25
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Or the vendor would like to see the proceeds of an inheritance.

    At least you don't have to pay the occupant to stay like the Viager system.


  • #26
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,918 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    the_syco wrote: »
    It sounds like the seller is giving up on the property, and just wants some cash for their investment?

    Bid x 1 are usually used by a vendor selling in bulk, so a bank selling repossessed properties that they couldn't shift any other way. In this case they couldn't shift it because of the life estate. That's my experience with them anyhow.

    It could be there's a mortgage created by the owner and the bank consented to the life estate, either being created simultaneously or remaining on the title if it already existed. Things took a turn and the bank ended up taking it in and are now trying to sell it on.


  • #27
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,666 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    emeldc wrote: »
    Without wanting to derail, who pays for upkeep, repairs, insurance, property tax etc. if it’s your dad, jeez, who’d want a house like that. He may never get any benefit from it.


    There was a situation in my extended family where one sibling inherited the house and the other one the entire contents. I don't know how the distinction between house / contents is made fully eg is the hot water tank and piping one or the other.

    It worked out because the were both unmarried and still living there. But I believe it had some messy legal consequences further down the track.


  • #28
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Life tenancy means the person who benefits from the tenancy can stay in the property rent free until they die. Usually you see this with family homes where for example the house may be left to one child but may be subject to a life tenancy of the surviving spouse or sibling. Usually the person who has the life tenancy can agree to it being removed from title. But if it’s subject to this, I doubt they are agreeing to it or the bank are not inclined to offer money to that person for the value of the life tenancy.


    A person would be mad to buy a house subject to a life tenancy. You can’t do anything with the house until they die and you don’t receive any rent from the property. And equally no bank would lend you the funds to buy it if there was a life tenancy.


  • #29
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Best viewed as a long-term investment of unknown duration to be funded by cash.

    Not in itself a daft proposition if it's priced accordingly and you're certain you won't need to cash-out any time soon.


  • #30
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's a very speculative investment.

    While the life tenant lives you get nothing - nothing like rent, or dividends on shares, or interest on bonds; nothing at all. And you're at risk that, while the tenant lives, he may fail e.g. to keep up the house insurance, exposing you to the chance of futher loss.

    When the tenant dies you get the property with vacant possession, but (a) you have no idea when the tenant dies; (b) you have no idea what condition the property will be in when the tenant dies; and (c) you have no idea how the market may have moved by the time the tenant dies.

    So, basically, this would have to be priced very, very competitively before any rational investor would be interested. Plus, it has to be an investor with ready cash or other assets to mortgage; no bank will advance very much at all on the security of a mortgage of the reversion in this property.

    My guess would be that the seller is selling because he has a pressing need for cash, and this is his only way to realise his interest in the property.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,433 ✭✭✭touts


    Sounds like you are buying someone else's problems. If you have 195k to spare then it may be a long term investment. But be prepared to not see a cent of return for 20+ years. Even if they go into a nursing home for years their right to live there may not be extinguished. Plus you would have to foot the bill for any property taxes, repairs, maintenance etc.

    Wouldn't touch it myself.


Advertisement