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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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Comments

  • #362
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    lxflyer wrote: »
    That set of routings was caused by the merger of the 19 and 83 into the new 83, and the 19a was renumbered the 9.

    The removal of the 19, and therefore any bus from Ballygall Road East caused uproar in the area, and the deviation in the 9 along Beneavin Road was kept to maintain the link from the Ballygall Road East area to Phibsboro. Extending the 11 would do nothing to deliver that.

    Similar significant local opposition resulted in the 83 being split into the 83 and 83a so that a service could be restored to Tolka Estate.

    Cutting direct long established transport links is something that is very difficult to sell to people as they will see that as cuts, and that's going to be a major challenge for this exercise, as will delivering similar overall journey times in the event of people having to change buses en route where they used to have a direct connection.

    But that's what the consultants are hired to design and deliver!

    I know how it came about but it's still ridiculous.

    It's difficult to sell, yes, and there will be uproar but there comes a point where they have to realise that the uproar is completely ridiculous and get on with it. The 11 would serve them with a bus to the city centre from outside their doorstep. If they want the high frequency route or to go to Phibsborough, they can walk 5 minutes onto the main road. Uproar against a decision to make people in low density housing areas walk a duration of 5 minutes to catch a bus just has to be ignored and politicians shouldn't be allowed to meddle.

    I know why it's there and I know some people won't want it changed but it's still ridiculous and should be changed.


  • #363
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Peregrine wrote: »
    The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

    Least we forget the magical mystery tour that is the 83a.


  • #364
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    You can knock out a few stops for sure, but what difference will it really make? Most of the time, the stops don't have anybody getting on or off. The bus doesn't even slow down.

    The much bigger issue at the moment is the 'dwell time' at the stops.
    In my experience most of the stops have people getting on and off during peak hours


  • #365
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    What used to annoy me is many stops very close together and one person waiting at each one of them, the bus never got up to speed even off-peak on some routes because of this, and some of the stops were 200m apart.


  • #366
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    As long as they get on the bus quick-time it isn't that big a deal. Not to say it doesn't matter at all, but it really isn't the biggest issue.


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  • #367
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    As long as they get on the bus quick-time it isn't that big a deal. Not to say it doesn't matter at all, but it really isn't the biggest issue.

    Dwell time is the biggest issue, it can easily account for a third of journey time on the cross city routes.


  • #368
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,532 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Peregrine wrote: »
    I know how it came about but it's still ridiculous.

    It's difficult to sell, yes, and there will be uproar but there comes a point where they have to realise that the uproar is completely ridiculous and get on with it. The 11 would serve them with a bus to the city centre from outside their doorstep. If they want the high frequency route or to go to Phibsborough, they can walk 5 minutes onto the main road. Uproar against a decision to make people in low density housing areas walk a duration of 5 minutes to catch a bus just has to be ignored and politicians shouldn't be allowed to meddle.

    I know why it's there and I know some people won't want it changed but it's still ridiculous and should be changed.

    You have to remember that (in general) everyone views public transport from their own personal perspective, rather than standing back and trying to be dispassionate.

    That area would, in terms of age profile, be older to be fair and that creates issues in itself, particularly in terms of suggesting to people that they walk further.

    And I'm not saying you don't have a point, I think you do, but removing public transport links is very difficult to push through politically. Even more so in council estates as we saw in Sallynoggin.

    And like it or not there are political implications, and expecting there to be none is utopian.

    In that case the 19 was cancelled altogether, and I think removing the 9 from Beneavin Road would have caused far more trouble than it was worth.

    That's exactly what happened in Tolka Estate when the 19 was removed. Eventually a service had to be restored in the form of the 83a.

    As I say this is not going to be easy but let's wait and see.


  • #369
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Just thinking out loud here, but maybe have minimal stops during rush hour, and all stops outside that time.

    I await the brickbats. Sorry, just a thought.


  • #370
    boobycharlton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭boobycharlton


    Biggest delays are down to little to no bus priority and insufficient space for busses, taxis and private cars. This is the biggest and hardest problem to solve, major surgery required that I just don't believe NTA/Dublin Bus/City Council/whoever have the competency or stomach to undertake. Dwell times and stop spacing is cosmetic surgery in comparison.


  • #371
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,532 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Just thinking out loud here, but maybe have minimal stops during rush hour, and all stops outside that time.

    I await the brickbats. Sorry, just a thought.

    How many times have I said this in this thread - the issue of stops on longer routes can be dealt with by developing more limited stop Xpresso routes.

    You still need stopping routes as well.

    It's about developing the right mix of services.


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  • #372
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    At the end of the day we have run out of road space. That is the fundamental problem. Even if you got rid of a lot of the cars, the whole thing is very constrained by the Luas. the biggest problem I see is operating at sufficient frequency, all week, to make interchange fast and convenient.


  • #373
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    boobycharlton wrote: »
    . Dwell times and stop spacing is cosmetic surgery in comparison.

    Not really. When it's next a rainy day sit downstairs and see how much time is added by the irregular users interacting with the driver


  • #374
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    At the end of the day we have run out of road space. That is the fundamental problem. Even if you got rid of a lot of the cars, the whole thing is very constrained by the Luas. the biggest problem I see is operating at sufficient frequency, all week, to make interchange fast and convenient.
    We could and now this might just be crazy talk not send every bus down O'Connell St and thus negate the issue completely


  • #375
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    lxflyer wrote: »
    How many times have I said this in this thread - the issue of stops on longer routes can be dealt with by developing more limited stop Xpresso routes.

    You still need stopping routes as well.

    It's about developing the right mix of services.

    Relax, don't take any posts personally. I agree that X routes should be just that, Express, minimal stops, but they are not that model by any stretch of the imagination at present. Something to work on maybe.


  • #376
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    We could and now this might just be crazy talk not send every bus down O'Connell St and thus negate the issue completely

    Don't know why Gardiner Street is not used more as an artery through the city. Even the Luas is going down Marlborough Street.

    But I am sure someone will point out my folly.


  • #377
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    At the end of the day we have run out of road space. That is the fundamental problem. Even if you got rid of a lot of the cars, the whole thing is very constrained by the Luas. the biggest problem I see is operating at sufficient frequency, all week, to make interchange fast and convenient.
    We could and now this might just be crazy talk not send every bus down O'Connell St and thus negate the issue completely

    There is just no way to cross the city without crossing a Luas line at least once. It will take a toll.


  • #378
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    boobycharlton wrote: »
    Dwell times and stop spacing is cosmetic surgery in comparison.

    Dwell times are a massive problem. They can add up to 15 minutes onto a journey that would otherwise take 30 minutes, especially on cross city routes


  • #379
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,532 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Relax, don't take any posts personally. I agree that X routes should be just that, Express, minimal stops, but they are not that model by any stretch of the imagination at present. Something to work on maybe.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to be short, but it does get a bit annoying when something you've said several times gets suddenly produced as a brand new idea.

    As for by the design of the limited stop routes, that would be part of what this whole project is all about.

    Start with a clean slate!


  • #380
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,532 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    At the end of the day we have run out of road space. That is the fundamental problem. Even if you got rid of a lot of the cars, the whole thing is very constrained by the Luas. the biggest problem I see is operating at sufficient frequency, all week, to make interchange fast and convenient.
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    There is just no way to cross the city without crossing a Luas line at least once. It will take a toll.

    I think that we are going to find that is going to a much bigger toll than many people think.


  • #381
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Good to see the orbital routes.

    Mad I know, but wouldn't a bus lane alongside the M50 with stops/connections near all the exits be great.

    Sorry, I know I am entering a fantasy world here. OK back in my box.


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  • #382
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I also think the Luas is going to be massively successful because of the 'network effect'. People are going to migrate from bus to Luas in their droves. It will be packed within months.

    How the bus network changes in response to this is really critical.


  • #383
    VG31
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭VG31


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    One thing I can't understand is at school times at some schools there's students from the same school getting on at multiple different stops which are further from the school than the others why? Also many schoolchildren are still paying cash grrrrr.

    I've seen exactly what you described on my route. Sometimes the bus is full by the time it gets to the stop closest to the school, that might be one reason.

    I can't understand the cash part though. Presumably they use the bus regularly as well!


  • #384
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    VG31 wrote: »
    I've seen exactly what you described on my route. Sometimes the bus is full by the time it gets to the stop closest to the school, that might be one reason.

    Sometimes they go to the stop after the school on my route. The route is never full either.


  • #385
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I also think the Luas is going to be massively successful because of the 'network effect'. People are going to migrate from bus to Luas in their droves. It will be packed within months.

    How the bus network changes in response to this is really critical.

    I am betting that many will not mind walking a bit further to the Luas stop, but will whinge if their bus stop is moved further away from their door.

    See?


  • #386
    VG31
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭VG31


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I am betting that many will not mind walking a bit further to the Luas stop, but will whinge if their bus stop is moved further away from their door.

    See?

    It's much more of a problem with bus stops, but I have always thought that the Four Courts and Smithfield stops on the Luas Red Line are too close together.


  • #387
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I honestly think that buses are seen as the worst PT option, and if you have to use it you are a loser, or not living in a "good PT area".

    Luas and Dart are seen as great PT options, not only because they are, but they are cool and efficient. Buses are not seen in that way at all ever.

    But hopefully the network review and all this stuff announced today might help.


  • #388
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I honestly think that buses are seen as the worst PT option, and if you have to use it you are a loser, or not living in a "good PT area".

    Luas and Dart are seen as great PT options, not only because they are, but they are cool and efficient. Buses are not seen in that way at all ever.

    But hopefully the network review and all this stuff announced today might help.

    Buses work better to complement rail and trams rather than as a main method of pt. I live on the n11 corridor and I find that that the bus is just as good as any Dart or Luas frequency wise.

    I do think BRT is a good idea as it's cheap and if implemented properly quick and reliable. I however believe that they should install overhead catenary and run as a trolleybus operation. This would make sense as it would be greener and cheaper in the long run espeically with diesel emissions being a much debated topic as of late.


  • #389
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I am betting that many will not mind walking a bit further to the Luas stop, but will whinge if their bus stop is moved further away from their door.

    See?

    I think this and the other issues discussed above is why the NTA want to do BRT.

    If they can make it seem something special and different then just a "normal" bus, then people will accept it working in a different way to what they are use to from buses and accept change.

    - Routes that don't wind through estates, people need to walk to major roads to get to it.
    - Less bus stops, much more staggered out and planned.
    - Off bus ticketing, zero interaction with driver. Can't "chat" with him, literally closed off Luas style.
    - High quality bus stops.
    - 3 to 4 doors, enter/exit through all doors.
    - Single decker, no struggling upstairs, easier for elderly and disabled. Faster dwell times.
    - Much greater priority along the routes.

    It really looks like an effort to fix all that is wrong with DB services.

    I'd say they think that if they can prove these "new" concepts on BRT that there will be less public resistance to introducing at least some of these on DB. Perhaps the public will even start calling for these changes, like we saw with the Luas.


  • #390
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I honestly think that buses are seen as the worst PT option, and if you have to use it you are a loser, or not living in a "good PT area".

    Experience in Ireland has show that buses are the bad public transport option.


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  • #391
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Bambi wrote: »
    Experience in Ireland has show that buses are the bad public transport option.

    Because it is not given priority. With bus lanes, traffic lights nothing. And no consistency with timings either.

    No wonder it is the Cinderella of public transport.


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