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Woman who strangled her newborn daughter to death... spared jail.

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    #122
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    infogiver wrote: »
    It's so frustrating to find so many people still obviously completely dismissing the effect and even the existence of depression in all its horrible forms.
    I feel particularly sorry for any close family members of these troglodytes who are suffering from PND and have to put up with the sneering and the snide comments.
    Awful stuff

    To be honest I think people are very aware of the sad reality of post natal depression, I have scoured the internet about this article though and PND hasn't been mentioned anywhere that I have found, but again we are only seeing snippets of the court proceedings etc. Are there articles in which a diagnosis of PND is mentioned?

    Strictly speaking post natal depression doesn't result in incidents as occurred with this woman (it occasionally does very rarely) statistics indicate that approx. 10% + of woman experience PND whilst postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression with psychotic features are much rarer. I haven't seen any reference to antenatal or post natal depression anywhere in relation to this case, which is why I think it's so important to be careful when assuming this was the causation... unless I have missed these articles?

    I am VERY sympathetic towards this woman's actions, I definitely do not believe they were committed in a stable state of mind.


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    #123
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Jesus Christ. Some people will use anything to score internet points.


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    #124
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    mdwexford wrote: »
    From what I read in the limited information in the article was she had a quite a plan. Get the baby out and kill it as soon as possible. How do we know this wasn't her plan all along if the baby was born and not miscarried.

    That isn't a plan, it's an idea.
    mdwexford wrote: »
    I believe having a new baby is a hell of a lot of work and people can certainly get down on themselves when things get tough.

    It seems you don't understand the medical nature of depression, particularly post natal depression. it's not a matter of too much work getting you down, it's chemical and hormonal affects on the body and mind.


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    #125
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    volchitsa wrote: »
    JuliusCaesar wrote: »
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that's fair enough.

    You can all rush to judgement in the absence of the complete facts, backed up by tabloid hysteria that exists for one reason only: to sell more copies of the paper (I won't call them NEWSpapers), or to draw you to their website so they can sell more advertising. "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" as they say.)

    But that doesn't stop me being absolutely aghast at the opinions I find voiced in this thread.


    I am a mental health professional. I have come across similar stories, and heaven knows they used be common enough.

    In the late 1800s and early 1900s, courts were extremely understanding of women who found themselves 'unexpectedly' pregnant - maybe by consensual sex, maybe forced sex by an employer (now regarded as rape). Have a look here.

    From the scant details available, it seems that she was in complete denial about being pregnant. Being in denial is NOT an active reaction, it's an unconscious defence mechanism against an event or truth that is unbearable to the person. It's a kind of forlorn hope that if the event is ignored, it'll go away. Maybe she was sort-of hoping to miscarry, who knows. Add that in with the hormones, and it's no wonder that she thought that killing the child would be the best solution - it would make the whole problem go away.

    For those of you who think a man wouldn't get away with it, do have a look at those murders committed in Ireland every few years where a man will kill his parents or somebody, usually in the grip of delusions. Most of them are committed to the Central Mental Hospital for psychiatric treatment.
    Thanks for that JC (umm... Just a bit worried about your choice of username though, :D )

    Since you've outed yourself a professional, I wanted to ask something that's been the cause of a lot of conflict on here : there's a certain PoV from a few posters that considers all murders of fame members as so horrible that the killer must necessarily have been out of his/her mind. So, the man who killed his wife and children in Cavan for example, or the one who drowned his daughter in Co Cork would be considered as being as much to be pitied as this woman.

    What do you think?

    (Just for full disclosure, I don't think they're the same at all, not because those were men, but because they seemed to have planned the killings and to have a motivation for them that is entirely different from someone who is delusional. But not being a health professional, I'd be interested in hearing from someone e who is.)
    The man who killed his family in cavan and the man who killed his little girl in Cork and this "mother" who killed her new born baby are all exactly the same. They are ..........MURDERERS.


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    #126
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What she did was no different to abortion, according to ethicists at Oxford.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html
    They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

    Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

    They authors concluded :
    that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.

    Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote.

    “To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”


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    #127
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »

    It seems you don't understand the medical nature of depression, particularly post natal depression. it's not a matter of too much work getting you down, it's chemical and hormonal affects on the body and mind.

    Where is everyone getting the Post natal depression diagnosis from? Can someone link me?


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    #128
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The man who killed his family in cavan and the man who killed his little girl in Cork and this "mother" who killed her new born baby are all exactly the same. They are ..........MURDERERS.

    No they're not, and you know it

    Caps Lock on = looking for internet points


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    #129
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    222233 wrote: »
    Where is everyone getting the Post natal depression diagnosis from? Can someone link me?

    It wasn't a diagnosis, I asked him if he believed in it.


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    #130
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Depression is not, and never will be, a justification for murder. And I say that as somebody who has battled depression and suicidal thoughts myself, as well as knowing many others who have.

    Infanticide should be considered murder, pure and simple. If either the father or the partner had done it, they'd be behind bars no questions asked - as they damn well should be.


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    #131
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    It seems you don't understand the medical nature of depression, particularly post natal depression. it's not a matter of too much work getting you down, it's chemical and hormonal affects on the body and mind.

    I understand the chemical nature of depression far better than I'd like to, to be honest. One thing depression does not do is remove one's ability to tell right from wrong. Killing is wrong. Personally I have infinite sympathy with people who are depressed, and those who commit suicide. That sympathy is entirely conditional on them not taking anyone else down with them - it evaporates instantly if they cause the death of an innocent party through their actions.


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    #132
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Depression is not, and never will be, a justification for murder. And I say that as somebody who has battled depression and suicidal thoughts myself, as well as knowing many others who have.

    Infanticide should be considered murder, pure and simple. If either the father or the partner had done it, they'd be behind bars no questions asked - as they damn well should be.

    As mentioned, it's post-natal psychosis, not post natal depression.

    And even post-natal depression would be different from clinical depression. So your own experience of depression isn't relevant.

    And also as mentioned, there was a recent case in Donegal of a man being let off killing his parents because of diminished responsibility. Enough of the tiresome whataboutery, people.


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    #133
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Brendan O Donnell also killed a toddler and was found to be mentally unwell when he did it, I doubt the posters here who seem to have sympathy for this woman would feel the same about him though.


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    #134
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    It wasn't a diagnosis, I asked him if he believed in it.

    My apologies, I have just seen post natal depression mentioned many times in the thread.

    I personally think it is important not to assume this case is due to PND, unless that has been specifically stated somewhere.

    As with any Major depressive disorder Usually symptoms would be prevalent for 2 weeks or more prior to making a diagnosis and symptoms are recognised as being hard to assess in the postpartum period due to shifts in hormones, postpartum blues, the stress of child birth etc. That's the only reason I mentioned it. If anyone has a link though I'd be interested to read?


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    #135
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Brendan O Donnell also killed a toddler and was found to be mentally unwell when he did it, I doubt the posters here who seem to have sympathy for this woman would feel the same about him though.

    Well, you don't know that, do you? Supposition, nothing else.


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    #136
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Robineen wrote: »
    Well, you don't know that, do you? Supposition, nothing else.

    I don't so let's find out.

    Do you feel the same level of sympathy for him?


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    #137
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I don't so let's find out.

    Do you feel the same level of sympathy for him?

    Can you summarise his case? I don't know a huge amount about it.


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    #138
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    gctest50 wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The man who killed his family in cavan and the man who killed his little girl in Cork and this "mother" who killed her new born baby are all exactly the same. They are ..........MURDERERS.

    No they're not, and you know it

    Caps Lock on = looking for internet points
    Of course they are. What other word in the dictionary would you use to describe them. Someone who kills someone else is a murderer. ( note no capitals this time in case it offends you )


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    #139
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Robineen wrote: »
    Can you summarise his case? I don't know a huge amount about it.

    Kidnapped a mother and her so and killed them both, was found to be mentally unwell and sent to Dundrum Mental Hospital.

    My point is in both cases a person with mental health issues killed a baby.


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    #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Depression is not, and never will be, a justification for murder...

    You misunderstand the whole defence.

    No one has claimed that depression is a justification. However, obviously, the inability to form the necessary intent has existed as a defence for a very long time. The MNaghten Rules were introduced over 150 years ago. The extension to incorporate diminished responsibilty has been around for decades, and was raised in the case of R v Patrick Byrne where an Irishman decapitated a woman in a Birmingham hostel with a tin opener over 50 years ago. But it's not a justification, it's an absence of or inability to form intent.


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    #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Someone who kills someone else is a murderer. ( note no capitals this time in case it offends you )

    That's so simplistic as to be patent nonsense.

    Because someone who kills someone else but has a defence, provocation, self defence, inability to form intent, may be a killer but may obviously not be a murderer.


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    #142
    Commotion Ocean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Commotion Ocean


    Victor wrote: »
    Actually, post-natal depression is extremely common, and infanticide is well enough known to be recognised as such, with a much reduced sentence compared to murder.

    If you think it's a messed up situation, imagine how messed up a mother has to be to do it.

    Grand so. Can I go out and murder, rape and pillage and just say sorry, I was depressed. Women are literally getting away with murder.

    Would a clinically depressed man get away with it? We all know he wouldn't.


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    #143
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    JuliusCaesar wrote: »
    Anyway, I know there's little point in explaining all this to most of you - your minds are made up, and you see no reason why you should listen, because I'm just a liberal do-gooder bleeding-heart who is naive and regularly has the wool pulled over my eyes. Absolutely no reason that I should have studied to PhD level, because the dogs in the street could tell me better.

    Not sure why you felt the need to put this in. Really took away from an interesting post.


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    #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dfeo wrote: »
    Grand so. Can I go out and murder, rape and pillage and just say sorry, I was depressed.

    No, but if you say "I did not intend to do it" and demonstrate how or why, then obviously you may have a defence. Of course, it may not be accepted. But intent is a necessary element of the crime.


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    #145
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    infogiver wrote: »
    It's so frustrating to find so many people still obviously completely dismissing the effect and even the existence of depression in all its horrible forms.
    I feel particularly sorry for any close family members of these troglodytes who are suffering from PND and have to put up with the sneering and the snide comments.
    Awful stuff

    I find it embarrassing you have to contantly try and put down others with different views to yours.


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    #146
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Kidnapped a mother and her so and killed them both, was found to be mentally unwell and sent to Dundrum Mental Hospital.

    My point is in both cases a person with mental health issues killed a baby.

    Did he "choose" to go through hours of severe physical pain, nearly bleeding to death and even then still have to be forced to seek medical help?

    Maybe that makes a difference in how people estimate the state of someone's mental health?


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    #147
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Everything?

    We may invent names or appellations but that doesn't change the fact that phenomena exist independent of how we choose to name them.

    Also, to be clear, you're stacking up your opinion that punishment was inadequate against the trial judge? I'm guessing a trial judge in the Old Bailey sees the worst humanity has to offer and as such is probably a bit more clued in than most?

    You're entitled to your opinion about her sentence and not spending time around her.

    In the U.K., according to the ONS, about 3% (16) homicides involve a victim under the age of 1. Not all those would be classed as infanticide and not all would be successfully defended as such.

    I'd imagine they do. If there is as much precedence for lenient sentencing for this kind of thing as I am lend to believe in this thread then it would be hard for her to be found guilty of murder.

    Yes I'm be interested to read cases of people who tried to got off the hook with infanticide and instead got found guilty of murder. Proving murder must be difficult.


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    #148
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    I normally avoid these stories. I must be bored. I'm not reading the whole thread as it's too depressing. I just wondered about her other child. Does the child still live with her mother?


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    #149
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Kidnapped a mother and her so and killed them both, was found to be mentally unwell and sent to Dundrum Mental Hospital.

    My point is in both cases a person with mental health issues killed a baby.

    Right so, diminished responsibility for him also. That seems like a fair verdict.


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    #150
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If that was her plan "all along" why on earth would she not just have had an abortion? She had 24 weeks to do this, it's free on the NHS.

    Instead she went through the pain of unaccompanied labour, actually risking her life so that even though she was haemorrhaging badly afterwards, she still didn't want to seek medical help.

    You call that a plan? I call it madness. Literally.

    Maybe she was worried her partner would get wind of the abortion but it's a fair point.
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    That isn't a plan, it's an idea.


    It seems you don't understand the medical nature of depression, particularly post natal depression. it's not a matter of too much work getting you down, it's chemical and hormonal affects on the body and mind.

    I've never looked into PND in any great detail.

    As far as I know it can happen when feeling overwhelmed with the new baby or if things are becoming hard to cope worth.


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    #151
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    dfeo wrote: »
    Grand so. Can I go out and murder, rape and pillage and just say sorry, I was depressed. Women are literally getting away with murder.

    Would a clinically depressed man get away with it? We all know he wouldn't.

    Post-natal psychosis!

    And, once again, there was recent case in Ireland of a man killing his parents and it was deemed to be diminished responsibility.

    Are people wilfully not reading the thread? :confused:


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