Railfreight

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 8:43pm

is there any word from IE on any possibilities or is it all sought from word of mouth

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 9:11pm

taken from irrs journal 2002

In October, IÉ stated their intention to withdraw from freight carryings that were uneconomic. These included bagged cement, bagged fertiliser, timber and ‘general containers’. However, at the time, no formal decision was made and the Board of IÉ directed that the Company engage in discussions with the Department of Public Enterprise to explore the possibility of securing EU or Exchequer funding for unprofitable freight businesses. The IÉ Board decided that the Freight Division would vacate the Spencer Dock area of North Wall, Dublin, on 1 February in accordance with CIÉs agreement with the developer of the site. They also requested managers to advance existing proposals to develop an alternative location for the container business that would be displaced.

It is understood that contracts for carrying trainloads of containers would still be sought and that the fate of bulk cement traffic depended on commercial negotiations. An IÉ spokesman was quoted in the newspapers as saying the ‘plan recommends an orderly withdrawal from all unprofitable bulk, palletised and container load business following consultation with the various firms concerned’. Notwithstanding the postponement of the formal decision on the plan by the Board, IÉ told staff who maintain wagons that they were going to be re-deployed to other duties. Staff were told that 225 of the freight department's 570 staff would be affected. IÉ forecasted a deficit of €8.5 million for 2001 for the freight division on revenues of €56 million. This withdrawal would leave IÉ with only a handful of freight trains operating including ammonia trains between Cork and Arklow, shale trains from Kilmastulla (Birdhill) to Limerick cement factory and oil trains from Dublin to Sligo. It was also speculated that beer (various Guinness produced products) would transfer to road haulage. Seasonal haulage of sugar beet from Wellingtonbridge to Mallow was expected to continue.

In recent years, IÉ has ceased hauling sundries, scrap metal, grain, molasses, gypsum and tar (to Sligo Quay) and dramatically reduced haulage of bagged cement, bagged fertiliser and containers. Bulk cement is no longer carried to Cabra (Dublin) and Athenry. The Cabra terminal has lain derelict since its closure on 23 December 1999.

The effect of all these withdrawals of traffic means that there are now no trains on the Foynes branch, Kingscourt branch, New Ross branch, between Ennis and Athenry, between Athenry and Claremorris and on Sligo Quay. In 2001, the Foynes branch saw the weed spraying train, a movement of scrap bagged- cement wagons for storage during the summer and an inspection car movement on 8 November. The Foynes branch was closed to all bar ‘Engineers trains’ in December, with the Electric Train Staff for the section held by the Limerick Permanent Way Inspector. Thus, it assumed the same status as the Youghal branch.

The sole active freight only branch is between Drogheda and Platin cement works. Bulk cement continues to be hauled between Castlemungret (Limerick) and the roofing factory at Athy on the stub of the Wolfhill branch, but both ends of the journey are designated as being in sidings.

By December, palletised fertiliser traffic had practically ceased, with the last traffic being cross-border and to Portlaoise. On Wednesday 19 December, 230 + 12 bogies of fertiliser arrived in Portlaoise at 10.15. The next day saw 10 laden fertiliser wagons in Adelaide yard in Belfast. On Thursday 20 December, 10 empty fertiliser bogies were worked to Shelton Abbey, (Arklow) to be loaded for Belfast. Fifty-four empty bogie-fertiliser wagons were observed in North Wall in early December.

On 27 November, the Minister for Public Enterprise told the Dáil: ‘It is the Government point of view, without taking a formal decision, that it would be better to transport goods as far as possible by rail rather than road’. On 6 December, the Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, TD, told the Dáil that ‘The Minister (for Public Enterprise) has informed the company … that she does not support its pulling out of rail freight or substantially reducing its contribution in this area as, among other things, it would add more heavy traffic to the streets, as most of the freight work occurs at Dublin’s Spencer Dock site. …The site used by Iarnród Éireann at the docks is to be developed in February and it will have to relocate. This issue arises because it wants to use the site in Spencer Dock for other purposes’. It was also reported in the media that the IÉ plan to reduce rail freight ran counter to EU transport policy.

its been on the cards for some time....

Sligo Quay · 16-07-2012 11:54pm

I have a very interesting journal from a few years ago february 2006 with a feature freight that was, very interesting reading, I never realized tara mines trains went to Arklow port, so much freight lost, private sidings everywhere.

davidlacey · 17-07-2012 12:51am

Sligo Quay wrote: »

I have a very interesting journal from a few years ago february 2006 with a feature freight that was, very interesting reading, I never realized tara mines trains went to Arklow port, so much freight lost, private sidings everywhere.

What was the roll of the sidings in dundalk that now lay in alot of weeds it seemed like a big operation? Just after the old GNR depot on the left on the way to the station

goingnowhere · 17-07-2012 1:11am

Sligo Quay wrote: »

I have a very interesting journal from a few years ago february 2006 with a feature freight that was, very interesting reading, I never realized tara mines trains went to Arklow port, so much freight lost, private sidings everywhere.

Tara Mines was playing a game to see if it could save money by using Arklow instead of Dublin Port (but had to use lower capacity wagons), they reverted to Dublin Port using their own fleet of wagons as before

dowlingm · 17-07-2012 2:41am

there are limits to our collective knowledge. The reality is that the government does not regard railfreight as a priority. They give IE no subsidy to operate it. Without a subsidy it is difficult for IE to expand services which are at the whim of commercial operators over time.

Getting shale back onto rail would be a start as would using Tara empties to ship Dublin rubbish to Indaver (assuming that could be got past EPA and the locals)

end of the road · 17-07-2012 3:36am

maybe, maybe not, its hard to say

Victor · 17-07-2012 4:44am

dowlingm wrote: »

Getting shale back onto rail would be a start as would using Tara empties to ship Dublin rubbish to Indaver (assuming that could be got past EPA and the locals)

Burning refuse tainted with lead ore, hmmmm ... The trick might be to have mixed trains of loaded and empty wagons - loaded ore and empty refuse to Dublin and vice versa. You would have an issue with the multiple handling of the refuse.

kc56 · 17-07-2012 9:26am

dowlingm wrote: »

I'd say they could use 201 HEP except some of the 201s used for freight are there for a rest from that

kc56 - true but it wouldn't be stuck at Cherryville waiting - it could head in for Kildare at reduced speed and then change tracks in the station approaches. Doesn't eliminate all the issues - nothing short of a flying junction would and that ain't happening - but it *might* do enough to give some added flex to timetabling to get punctuality up and timetable padding reduced.

dowlingm - also the alignment is wrong. The 3rd track in Kildare is a loop to the North of the mainline and what would be needed is a track to the South of the mainline. Not easy to fix that one without major track and platform re-alignments.

However, a 3rd track to the south of the mainline to Cherryville would cure one problem - the adverse super-elevation of the branch turn-out (the mainline is curved right with super-elevated tracks) which restricts the speed at which trains can enter/leave the Waterford branch (It's worse at Portarlington!). If the track could run in parallel with the main line then a higher speed turn-out could be used on straight track - the KRP has 70mph turnouts).

Sligo Quay · 17-07-2012 9:06pm

davidlacey wrote: »

What was the roll of the sidings in dundalk that now lay in alot of weeds it seemed like a big operation? Just after the old GNR depot on the left on the way to the station. I checked on google maps was it a container depot or something like that?

I think it replaced the freight yard at Barrack st Dundalk, nice selection of pictures here http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Barrack%20Street/Irish%20Railway%20Stations.html the new container depot saw very few containers, mostly handled beer kegs from the nearby brewery when the sidings at the brewery where buried under the new carpark, at lot of freight facilities around the country have been turned into pre paid carparks that don't actually get used in these lean times.

CIE · 18-07-2012 4:51am

Millem wrote: »

A future? Perhaps yes, but this would be conditional on government and Irish rail stimulus of the industry. Rail doesn't serve every mass industrial location in the country, and in most cases it is simply easier to transport by road rather than rail.

Geography doesn't really help Ireland - we're too small, and with most loads the proposed benefits of rail freight (less manpower, taking trucks off the road etc) are negated by the flexibility of roads. The lack of mass heavy industry here doesn't help - we're fast becoming a knowledge economy rather than a heavy industry one.

Without stimulus or intervention the rail freight situation will likely enter a slow decline and may cease altogether in the medium - long term

That's a very kind assessment. The more stark one is that the government has a conflict of interest and is strangling the rail business, which it controls in its entirety. There is only "flexibility of roads" because the government insists on building more of them and fewer railways; the more rails you build, the higher its flexibility rises. FWICS, if railway business was allowed to return to the private sector and the infrastructure was allowed to expand instead of continually retreat, railfreight would be highly competitive and diverse.

davidlacey · 18-07-2012 7:52am

good pics of barrack road, i never even knew it was that extensive, shocking how all of this has been lost to the road, if only i was around when rail freight was commonplace

corktina · 18-07-2012 7:57am

"The long and winding road, that leaves from your door..." thats the trouble with Rail...it dosn't leave from your door whereas road does...

you wont change that however much you might invest in Rail...it's as outmoded as the Canal and the Packhorse and will follow them into obscurity if it doesn't concentrate on what it does best...(Heavy Haul freight (almost none in this Country), Fast long distance passenger (precious little in this Country) and Suburban/Commuter (Mostly Dublin and little bit Cork )

davidlacey · 18-07-2012 8:11am

i personally thinks its all doom and gloom once the last tara mines train makes its journey it will be cut of from the network and left to the weeds like every other former rail freight flow. that will leave no infrastructure which means no hope

rainbowdash · 18-07-2012 1:09pm

I reckon Irish Rail will go Railcar only and ditch all their locos, except a few for towing, maintenance etc.

Then its goodnight to freight. After that intercity will be abolished.

We will be left with DART, Dublin commuter, maybe Cork Commuter and Ennis - Athenry as nobody would want to see the west suffer.

It looks like Gort - Tuam is getting a motorway, so within a generation Cork - Sligo will be motorway most or all the way.

Thats the whole county linked by road and buses can be switched around based on supply and demand.

Take OAP's, kids and student fares off the trains and how many passengers would there be?

corktina · 18-07-2012 1:47pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Take OAP's, kids and student fares off the trains and how many passengers would there be?

Thats the point i think, the rail network simply wouldnt be there were it not for subsidy they get from the Welfare for free travel holders. Its an expensive way to do it, evidenced by the high fares for those who do pay.

I hope any reductions are not as drastic as you envisage, but the writing is firmly on the wall for Rail unless some dynamic manaagers take control

Sligo Quay · 18-07-2012 8:34pm

corktina wrote: »

"The long and winding road, that leaves from your door..." thats the trouble with Rail...it dosn't leave from your door whereas road does...
)

Hmmm well Esso fuel and homeheating oil actually left from ''your door'' Esso's own door on Alexandra rd and traveled all the way to the Esso storage fuel depot at Sligo Quay, no double handling, I could never understand IE getting out of this particular traffic, like Tara ore, it was ''door to door'' when its not door to door, well it kind of defeats the purpose

Sligo Quay · 18-07-2012 8:51pm

corktina wrote: »

" invest in Rail...it's as outmoded as the Canal and the Packhorse

Isn't that what a famous Stormont Minister said in the 1960s ''the railways are as obsolete as the horse & cart'' and as they say, the rest is history.

corktina · 19-07-2012 6:35am

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Hmmm well Esso fuel and homeheating oil actually left from ''your door'' Esso's own door on Alexandra rd and traveled all the way to the Esso storage fuel depot at Sligo Quay, no double handling, I could never understand IE getting out of this particular traffic, like Tara ore, it was ''door to door'' when its not door to door, well it kind of defeats the purpose

Thats not door to door....it has to be delivered to the end customer by truck....double handling....

davidlacey · 19-07-2012 9:37am

corktina wrote: »

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Hmmm well Esso fuel and homeheating oil actually left from ''your door'' Esso's own door on Alexandra rd and traveled all the way to the Esso storage fuel depot at Sligo Quay, no double handling, I could never understand IE getting out of this particular traffic, like Tara ore, it was ''door to door'' when its not door to door, well it kind of defeats the purpose

Thats not door to door....it has to be delivered to the end customer by truck....double handling....

Its still absoutely ridiculous the sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country but IE were probably to pre occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the dirty freight such as beer, oil, tar,molasses, cement, shale etc...

CIE · 19-07-2012 9:46am

rainbowdash wrote: »

I reckon Irish Rail will go Railcar only and ditch all their locos, except a few for towing, maintenance etc.

Then its goodnight to freight. After that intercity will be abolished.

We will be left with DART, Dublin commuter, maybe Cork Commuter and Ennis - Athenry as nobody would want to see the west suffer.

It looks like Gort - Tuam is getting a motorway, so within a generation Cork - Sligo will be motorway most or all the way.

Thats the whole county linked by road and buses can be switched around based on supply and demand.

Take OAP's, kids and student fares off the trains and how many passengers would there be?

So you're saying that Ireland is de-modernising while the rich countries of the EU continue to modernise on the country's back? Those other rich countries rely a lot on railways.

No country that relies on roads and motorways wholly for ground transport gets anywhere at all. If Ireland gets hit by a colossal blizzard next winter, forget about roads—the whole country will be utterly paralysed. Trains are better at getting through rough winter weather like that and don't slip off their tracks like a road vehicle would be slipping around on the asphalt (unless of course you don't prepare for it like Deutsche Bahn failed to last winter with their OHLE frozen over and extremely low availability of snow ploughs for the railways). I cannot think of a single superpower that has eschewed railways for all-road transport.

corktina wrote: »

"The long and winding road, that leaves from your door..." thats the trouble with Rail...it dosn't leave from your door whereas road does...

you won't change that however much you might invest in Rail...it's as outmoded as the Canal and the Packhorse and will follow them into obscurity if it doesn't concentrate on what it does best...(Heavy Haul freight (almost none in this Country), Fast long distance passenger (precious little in this Country) and Suburban/Commuter (Mostly Dublin and little bit Cork )

Uh-oh...nonsequiturs out in force; someone's railway-hatred running out of control

and even worse, nonsequiturs that agree with the old Stormont government as already noted.

So. No transport mode is of any value unless it leaves from your front doorstep, is that it? Well, that includes fixed bus routes, HGVs and the vast majority of local lorry transport, all forms of water transport (unless you have an active canal or other navigable waterway right next to your house that is), all forms of air transport (unless you have a helipad, runway or airship tether in your yard) and every tram that does not run past your front door. Railways still have their niche to fulfill in a modern society, and yes, it takes investment and not closure, just as motorways do not spring up out of the ground fully-formed either. It's very silly, with all due respect, to continually ascribe attributes and criteria to railways that they never performed in the past and never were intended to perform, just like the very many other forms of transport that also run from fixed origin to fixed destination and yet society continues to depend on heavily.

I wonder what would happen if someone told the operators of the Panama Canal and Suez Canal that their waterways are "outmoded". I suspect heavy laughter would ensue.

Same applies to the Berlin-Spandau canal and the many other active canals of the country that currently bosses Ireland around...(never mind many other countries that use both rivers and canals that connect them for barge traffic; I suppose we ought to close the Mississippi River and the Shannon River to shipping as well).

As for pack horses/donkeys/mules, they still go where automobiles cannot go. As do camels. And sledge dogs. And if Ireland ever gets hit by an EMP weapon that destroys most of its electronics (upon which most modern transport depends), then the man with the most horses wins, as does the RPSI if it can deploy its steam engines quickly enough...

corktina · 19-07-2012 11:11am

I never said any of that...the point is the Train will lose out to the car or truck that goes door to door. The rest of it you made into a rant that does nothing to negate this point...

As for being a rail-hater, far from it, I'd just like to see the bits rail CAN do best concentrated on and the rest consigned to history. This way is salvation for IE..the current way is a one-way trip to Hammond Lane.

dowlingm · 19-07-2012 5:23pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Its still absoutely ridiculous the sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country but IE were probably to pre occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the lossmaking freight such as beer, oil, tar,molasses, cement, shale etc...

Fixed your post. Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside.

CIE · 19-07-2012 6:21pm

corktina wrote: »

I never said any of that...the point is the Train will lose out to the car or truck that goes door to door. The rest of it you made into a rant that does nothing to negate this point...

As for being a rail-hater, far from it, I'd just like to see the bits rail CAN do best concentrated on and the rest consigned to history. This way is salvation for IE..the current way is a one-way trip to Hammond Lane

Aw, stop complaining; you did say it. The vast majority of freight does not travel door to door, whatever was meant by that. There are distribution centres where it is sorted and it travels locally in delivery-oriented small lorries; rail can do this far better than multiple HGVs, never mind the lower rolling efficiency of HGVs (rubber tyres versus steel wheels, the latter far more heat-efficient). And where you have freight sidings on railways, the freight does indeed go "door to door" (meaning business to business). I've yet to see any HGV deliver the majority of essentials to people's homes; that would be disastrous, especially where retail shops remain the best option.

There is no "salvation for IE" because it is state-owned and the state has a conflict of interest between road and rail due to controlling both modes. The real salvation for rail per se would be to actually privatise the freight operations, which would lead to actual incentive to put best practice into effect. The state can do what it pleases because they are not truly worried about profiting from a profitable enterprise. They will continue to run Ireland into the ground via demodernisation and balkanisation all because Germany wants no competition. (And I would not see the many people emigrating once more due to lack of jobs disagreeing with that POV.)

dowlingm wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

It's still absoutely ridiculous the Sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country, but IE were probably to pre-occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the (dirty versus allegedly lossmaking) freight such as beer, oil, tar, molasses, cement, shale etc...

...Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside

IOW, you're not sorry to see business gone by the wayside? Countries do not get fed by ideology; they get fed by business. No freight business is loss-making, unless of course you agree with creative accounting done by government officials. The sugar industry was ordered out of business by the heavily-ideological and Soviet-influenced European Union.

Losty Dublin · 19-07-2012 6:27pm

The molasses was imported into Ireland, if I am thinking right, but certainly it had no connection to the sugar beet trains that ran until 2005 after the round of EU subsidies ended for beet growers in Ireland.

I have to agree with Corktina, much of the traffic isn't rail carried simply because rail can't do what most cargo needs to get to while other markets that it catered for are not in business anymore (Bell, IFI, Shale, Asahi, Cigarettes to name a few). Even a long term customer in Guinness/Diageo moves a lot of it's beer via sub contractor and sole trader direct from Dublin rather than the old model of into Heuston and onward to local depots; it's own dynamic and needs moved on for the time being.

Those customers left found that when it came to being charged a break even rate as per EU laws, they could get the sole trader truck driver haggled down to buggery since it's market was liberalised a la taxi-ing. A lot of people will point at Irish Rail and demand they chase new loads but in truth, there are few markets suitable to carry and even then they have to compete with a lot of undercutting from hauliers. I do feel that rail freight will return again in the future but it won't be anytime soon and it will be only when the customer is willing to trust it over road haulage and they choose it for it's overall benefits.

CIE · 19-07-2012 6:37pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The molasses was imported into Ireland, if I am thinking right, but certainly it had no connection to the sugar beet trains that ran until 2005 after the round of EU subsidies ended for beet growers in Ireland.

I have to agree with Corktina, much of the traffic isn't rail carried simply because rail can't do what most cargo needs to get to while other markets that it catered for are not in business anymore (Bell, IFI, Shale, Asahi, Cigarettes to name a few). Even a long term customer in Guinness/Diageo moves a lot of it's beer via sub contractor and sole trader direct from Dublin rather than the old model of into Heuston and onward to local depots; it's own dynamic and needs moved on for the time being.

Those customers left found that when it came to being charged a break even rate as per EU laws, they could get the sole trader truck driver haggled down to buggery since its market was liberalised a la taxi-ing. A lot of people will point at Irish Rail and demand they chase new loads but in truth, there are few markets suitable to carry and even then they have to compete with a lot of undercutting from hauliers. I do feel that rail freight will return again in the future but it won't be anytime soon and it will be only when the customer is willing to trust it over road haulage and they choose it for its overall benefits.

So in essence, all that's being said here is that private haulage is more reasonable than state-owned haulage. If rail freight does not come back any time soon, it's not due to want of private investment in it; the government has banned that.

Sligo Quay · 19-07-2012 7:59pm

corktina wrote: »

Thats not door to door....it has to be delivered to the end customer by truck....double handling....

Im talking about door to door for supplers, there will nearly always be double handling at the end result for customers, its not like the esso oil had to be delivered to a railhead by truck, then loaded on to a train = thats double handling, esso loaded its cargo directly into the oiltanks as the depot was rail connected, then when it arrived at Sligo Quay, the cargo was directly pumped into the storage tanks at Sligo Quay. If it arrived at Sligo Quay, pumped into roadtankers, then a journey to storage tanks by truck - thats double handling. It was railhead to railhead without the use of roadtankers, thats very rare in the Emerald Isle.
Corktina you sound like some of the cantankerous truckers that I have to deal with, day in and day out;):D

davidlacey · 19-07-2012 9:15pm

dowlingm wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

Its still absoutely ridiculous the sligo quay closed during a time of boom in this country but IE were probably to pre occupied with increasing passenger numbers and trying to offload some of the lossmaking freight such as beer, oil, tar,molasses, cement, shale etc...

Fixed your post. Also, presumably the molasses movements are gone with the sugar industry and as a former resident within 1km of Kent Station I'm not sorry to see ammonia gone by the wayside.

Loss making is that soundbite IE like to use these days to justify many of the freight flows closing, yes many closed due to companies that went out of business but there are countless that have been moved to road due to a more convinent and possibly cheaper option. How bagged and palletised cement was lossmaking is beyond me as we were in a housing boom and demand was high and many of the flows were closed in 2002 even before the bubble was at its highest! What have IE done to buck the trend , absoutely nothing, with petrol prices at a high price , why have they not marketed rail freight? Its not just a question of government intervention, IE needs to balance its books and sitting watching its rail freight division dissappear is not going to help them. Its simply not part of their business plans and if they are just waiting for freight flows that will make a tidy profit for them they will be waiting a long long time!bOnce all freight flows are gone I think that will be the end all areas in Irelands network will be rationalised and any opportunity will of it returning will be too costly and it will be lost for ever! Irish rail need to take ideas from other companies such as stobart who run a very tidy operation, yes i understand they are not a semi state company but i believe irish rail have to model themselves as a private sector company as the government wont be bailing them
Out

corktina · 19-07-2012 9:21pm

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Im talking about door to door for supplers, there will nearly always be double handling at the end result for customers, its not like the esso oil had to be delivered to a railhead by truck, then loaded on to a train = thats double handling, esso loaded its cargo directly into the oiltanks as the depot was rail connected, then when it arrived at Sligo Quay, the cargo was directly pumped into the storage tanks at Sligo Quay. If it arrived at Sligo Quay, pumped into roadtankers, then a journey to storage tanks by truck - thats double handling. It was railhead to railhead without the use of roadtankers, thats very rare in the Emerald Isle.
Corktina you sound like some of the cantankerous truckers that I have to deal with, day in and day out;):D

I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.

Losty Dublin · 19-07-2012 10:06pm

CIE wrote: »

So in essence, all that's being said here is that private haulage is more reasonable than state-owned haulage. If rail freight does not come back any time soon, it's not due to want of private investment in it; the government has banned that.

Not exactly. What you have are two different products and two different business models competing for the same business so to some extent it's apples and lemons. Rail freight can't trade at a loss and it has fixed costs to pay that road freight doesn't. Also, road haulage is far more cut throat and flexible in general but rail wins out on fixed loads, like zinc ore or loads containers from Ballina to the ports. The just companies go with what is better for them, which tends to be road.

Railfreight

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