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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Yes, yes, very glib. But you would have to be some kind of brainless idiot to think I hate renewable energy by taking one post that doesn't mention it out of context of a body of evidence that suggests otherwise. You wouldn't do that would you?

    I absolutely wouldn't which is why it would be very silly of me to try and use your supposed lack of appreciation for renewables to raise my own profile and attach myself to an unrelated issue. I guess later I could accept I realise you really do appreciate renewables after all but still leave my original objection more prominently displayed for potential voters.

    I was actually more interested in the "Community not corridor" folks, I included Cuffe's just because I thought it was mildly funny and as another example of a poorly defined objection to the project. I saw numerous people including the NTA engaging with the community people trying to understand their objections but they point blank refused to explain any further and insist they need a full impact assessment before anything can proceed.

    If everyone on every corridor objects and gets their way this won't even be started by 2027 let alone finished.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭trellheim


    If everyone on every corridor objects and gets their way this won't even be started by 2027 let alone finished

    The engagement from NTA has been dire in my area and I fully expect the community to be up in arms ( Stoneybatter/NCR ) and very strong objections be lodged.

    I happened to attend the local consultation re the Papal visit last year arranged at short notice because the operators did not engage with the locals, and it was utterly furious.

    It looks as if there was a short notice meeting here as well but as usual no-one got the word, and so it will just be storing up pain for the NTA down the line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    trellheim wrote: »
    The engagement from NTA has been dire in my area and I fully expect the community to be up in arms ( Stoneybatter/NCR ) and very strong objections be lodged.

    I happened to attend the local consultation re the Papal visit last year arranged at short notice because the operators did not engage with the locals, and it was utterly furious.

    It looks as if there was a short notice meeting here as well but as usual no-one got the word, and so it will just be storing up pain for the NTA down the line.

    NTA hosted the Stoneybatter community forum in the Aisling Hotel. Local groups were sharing it no end on facebook.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Local groups were sharing it no end on facebook
    I'm on three of them and there was nada .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    More from the "Community not corridor" people, presumably the "success" in relation to metrolink means it's now considered easy to destroy infrastructure projects

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bus-connects-corridor-12-4515682-Feb2019
    She said: “This plan is ill thought out and unworkable. Alleged savings of seven to eight minutes commute time for an estimated €120 million can be achieved in different and cheaper ways. It will be a disaster for local communities, businesses and taxpayers. It will destroy local businesses, historical villages and local communities and will create chaos on every side road to town.”

    Chaos and destruction of local business due to some bus lanes and bus priority.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,833 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    “She said: “This plan is ill thought out and unworkable. Alleged savings of seven to eight minutes commute time for an estimated €120 million can be achieved in different and cheaper ways. It will be a disaster for local communities, businesses and taxpayers. It will destroy local businesses, historical villages and local communities and will create chaos on every side road to town.”

    If It’s so simple , then why isn’t she making a suggestion. The resident expert. Go ahead Love...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,911 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    sharper wrote: »
    More from the "Community not corridor" people, presumably the "success" in relation to metrolink means it's now considered easy to destroy infrastructure projects

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bus-connects-corridor-12-4515682-Feb2019



    Chaos and destruction of local business due to some bus lanes and bus priority.

    Jaysus, certain residents in rathgar really are trying there best to get transport infrastructure cancelled or delayed in Dublin. You’d almost begin to think the well to do residents of rathgar would be trying to get these projects tied up in court appeals and challenges. Sure who would that suit only solicitors and judges, who might live in well to do areas such as rathg.......surely not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    sharper wrote: »
    More from the "Community not corridor" people, presumably the "success" in relation to metrolink means it's now considered easy to destroy infrastructure projects

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bus-connects-corridor-12-4515682-Feb2019



    Chaos and destruction of local business due to some bus lanes and bus priority.

    Comments are universally anti-nimby though, a surprise for the journal. Goes to show the nimbies have almost 0 support.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    “She said: “This plan is ill thought out and unworkable. Alleged savings of seven to eight minutes commute time for an estimated €120 million can be achieved in different and cheaper ways. It will be a disaster for local communities, businesses and taxpayers. It will destroy local businesses, historical villages and local communities and will create chaos on every side road to town.”

    If It’s so simple , then why isn’t she making a suggestion. The resident expert. Go ahead Love...

    Where's she going with 7 or 8 minutes? like if everyone said the same about their stretch of road, before you know it an hour doesnt matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    If It’s so simple , then why isn’t she making a suggestion. The resident expert. Go ahead Love...

    I thought it might be the case where there was another article or even a tweet where they explained themselves more fully but there really doesn't seem to be anything out there in relation to these better/cheaper solutions.

    The meeting of the Rathgar Residents Association on bus connects seemed to have a specific focus and it wasn't the health of public transport

    https://www.rathgarresidentsassociation.ie/news/item/dublin-bus-connect-opens-the-public-consultation-process
    Proposals for the Core Bus Corridors in phase two have been released and include the Rathfarnham to City Centre and Tallaght to Terenure routes which would run through Rathgar. These plans are proposals for public transport use of the road network and will have enormous impact on residents, commuters and business owners.

    They do not analyse the impact on private and commercial vehicular traffic so it is really important that your voice is heard. Make your submissions and comments to cbc@busconnects.ie and contact us at info@rathgarresidentsassociation.ie with specific issues of concern. You may wish to look at Eamon Ryan's metro link proposal as an alternative approach to providing for fast efficient commuter transport in the South West of the city.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    It's like the Brexit approach of "alternative arrangements" for the backstop, these are never clarified and just left to hang in the ether - more magical thinking by the NIMBYS WHO ALREADY HAVE A 4 LANE ROAD going through their area, all that's being proposed is a re-prioritisation of who gets to use the road, it will lead to a reduction in traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,567 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I said this months ago, I'll say it again..

    This will never happen, or be so cut down or compromised on that it'll defeat the point and/or make things worse than they are now.

    Outside of specialist forums like this, people don't value public transport that highly in general but buses in particular. A bit like renting, it's seen as the choice for those with no better options. Thus there's no real investment, no priority, no consistency or long term strategy because any attempts to do so are met by the types who demand their semi-D in the suburbs with garden and parking for their 191 SUV above all else.

    We need to start accepting reality and work with what we have - the city is choked by huge volumes of traffic coming in from the surrounding counties and clogging the M50. That's where the focus needs to be seeing as the big employers aren't going to move to the likes of Athlone. Again as I've said before, we need massive P&R facilities with a luas/DART running parallel to the M50 and hubs to local services at the main junctions - M1, M3, N4, N7, N11 - along with looking at upgrading some of the link roads between the M3-M4-M7 (an outer half M50).

    Anything else is just wasting time, money and effort - especially with local and probably national elections on the not too distant horizon.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I said this months ago, I'll say it again..

    This will never happen, or be so cut down or compromised on that it'll defeat the point and/or make things worse than they are now.

    Outside of specialist forums like this, people don't value public transport that highly in general but buses in particular. A bit like renting, it's seen as the choice for those with no better options. Thus there's no real investment, no priority, no consistency or long term strategy because any attempts to do so are met by the types who demand their semi-D in the suburbs with garden and parking for their 191 SUV above all else.

    We need to start accepting reality and work with what we have - the city is choked by huge volumes of traffic coming in from the surrounding counties and clogging the M50. That's where the focus needs to be seeing as the big employers aren't going to move to the likes of Athlone. Again as I've said before, we need massive P&R facilities with a luas/DART running parallel to the M50 and hubs to local services at the main junctions - M1, M3, N4, N7, N11 - along with looking at upgrading some of the link roads between the M3-M4-M7 (an outer half M50).

    Anything else is just wasting time, money and effort - especially with local and probably national elections on the not too distant horizon.

    Doing all that will just mean people will get to the M50 and outskirts of the city quicker. They'll still be massively delayed trying to get from their to their location within the M50. We need to improve transport infrastructure and capacity within the M50. People will complain, NIMBY groups will be formed to protest it but it needs to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    A colleague of mine lives on Rathgar Road. He has a front garden the size of a small 5 a side pitch. He currently has a COMMUNITY NOT CORRIDOR sign displaying in the window of one of his front rooms. Which is ironic really as he's often told me he doesn't even know either of his next door neighbours!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,911 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I said this months ago, I'll say it again..

    This will never happen, or be so cut down or compromised on that it'll defeat the point and/or make things worse than they are now.

    Outside of specialist forums like this, people don't value public transport that highly in general but buses in particular. A bit like renting, it's seen as the choice for those with no better options. Thus there's no real investment, no priority, no consistency or long term strategy because any attempts to do so are met by the types who demand their semi-D in the suburbs with garden and parking for their 191 SUV above all else.

    We need to start accepting reality and work with what we have - the city is choked by huge volumes of traffic coming in from the surrounding counties and clogging the M50. That's where the focus needs to be seeing as the big employers aren't going to move to the likes of Athlone. Again as I've said before, we need massive P&R facilities with a luas/DART running parallel to the M50 and hubs to local services at the main junctions - M1, M3, N4, N7, N11 - along with looking at upgrading some of the link roads between the M3-M4-M7 (an outer half M50).

    Anything else is just wasting time, money and effort - especially with local and probably national elections on the not too distant horizon.

    I have stated this many times on different threads also. We need to stop traffic coming into Dublin, by the use of these p+r’s and get people to their workplace in Dublin via busses and rail.

    For example on the n4 a 10000 vehicle p+r needs to be built at hazlehatch train station with a dedicated dual carriageway with dedicated on and off ramps to the n4.
    The railway line there is 4 tracked all the way to Hueston station. There are qbc’s all the way to the quays on the n4 also.
    Local busses could be set up in leixlip and cellbridge to bring people to the train and bus hub at hazlehatch.
    More trains will have to be bought and to get the full potential dart underground will also have to be built, but it will stem the flow of traffic into Dublin.
    Just for laughs, how about we re-route metrolink from ssg to huestonand tie it in that way, instead of building dart underground. That’d teach the south side nimbys. It’d also mean people traveling from maynooth could change at hueston for metro north or red Luas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I have a feeling if they dropped the seperate bike lanes then a lot of the requirement for road widening would be removed. The NTA are masquerading Bike Connects as Bus Connects for PR purposes


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Bambi wrote: »
    I have a feeling if they dropped the seperate bike lanes then a lot of the requirement for road widening would be removed. The NTA are masquerading Bike Connects as Bus Connects for PR purposes

    Cycling provision is an important part of the NTA's mandate, especially in Dublin where it can massively help to reduce congestion and pollution.

    If they decided to redesign a bunch of arterial routes, and then years later they had to do a separate cycling infrastructure project, lots of people would be moaning that they weren't forward thinking enough. Can't win!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Bambi wrote: »
    I have a feeling if they dropped the seperate bike lanes then a lot of the requirement for road widening would be removed. The NTA are masquerading Bike Connects as Bus Connects for PR purposes

    Getting more people onto bikes is likely the cheapest and easiest option for improving transport in the city.

    https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1095657527637880833


    https://www.dublincycling.com/cycling/new-study-reveals-huge-numbers-commuting-bike-dublins-quays
    The study was carried out during the morning rush hour on Wednesday 27th June between 8.00am and 9.15am. All vehicles travelling along Ormond Quay towards the city centre during this time period were counted. Pedestrian movements were not counted as part of the study.

    The results show that bicycles account for almost half of all vehicles travelling along Ormond Quay during rush hour, with 1,126 bikes recorded out of a total vehicle count of 2,314. This gives bicycles a 49% share of all vehicles.

    One of the standout statistics from the survey was that bicycles outnumbered private cars by a ratio of almost 2:1.

    A previous traffic study at this location, carried out by Dublin City Council in May 2017, recorded bicycles as having a 25% share of vehicular traffic. While Dublin Cycling Campaign’s rush hour figure of 49% is not directly comparable, it does highlight how the City Council and the NTA may be underestimating the need and the demand for dedicated cycling infrastructure on the Liffey Quays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Cycling provision is an important part of the NTA's mandate, especially in Dublin where it can massively help to reduce congestion and pollution.

    If they decided to redesign a bunch of arterial routes, and then years later they had to do a separate cycling infrastructure project, lots of people would be moaning that they weren't forward thinking enough. Can't win!

    If all that's true and they're putting in 200 kms of cycle lanes then why call it bus connects? They could actually deliver the bus route upgrades with far less disruption

    Because they know they'll be told to f**k off by joe public and TDs if they tried CPOing left, right and center for cycle lanes, hence the bus trojan horse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,920 ✭✭✭Daith


    Bambi wrote: »
    If all that's true and they're putting in 200 kms of cycle lanes then why call it bus connects? They could actually deliver the bus route upgrades with far less disruption

    Because they know they'll be told to f**k off by joe public and TDs if they tried CPOing left, right and center for cycle lanes, hence the bus trojan horse.

    They're being told to **** off already and that's without bikes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Bambi wrote: »
    I have a feeling if they dropped the seperate bike lanes then a lot of the requirement for road widening would be removed. The NTA are masquerading Bike Connects as Bus Connects for PR purposes

    Cycling provision is part of the package, as the NTA have made clear. It'd be a terrible waste to build bus connects now and then in a few year launch a 'bikeconnects' plan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Daith wrote: »
    They're being told to **** off already and that's without bikes.

    au contraire, the bike lanes are the main reason that they're being told to f**k off :)

    They're selling this as a bus network, lets see how committed they are to that concept.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Bambi wrote: »
    au contraire, the bike lanes are the main reason that they're being told to f**k off :)

    They're selling this as a bus network, lets see how committed they are to that concept.

    What would be the point of having separate schemes?
    Both could be done and they're important to eachother. Separation for cyclists increases bus speeds and reduces dwell times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Bambi wrote: »
    If all that's true and they're putting in 200 kms of cycle lanes then why call it bus connects? They could actually deliver the bus route upgrades with far less disruption

    Because they know they'll be told to f**k off by joe public and TDs if they tried CPOing left, right and center for cycle lanes, hence the bus trojan horse.

    Because it's a waste of money to build bus route upgrades and then cycle route upgrades separately when they're on the exact same routes.

    But you're right in a way - they should skip the road widening stuff entirely and just ban cars from those routes.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Bambi wrote: »
    au contraire, the bike lanes are the main reason that they're being told to f**k off :)

    That's a complete falsehood. Your arguments here have zero credibility.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Amirani wrote: »
    That's a complete falsehood. Your arguments here have zero credibility.

    If you say so, I guess. Quality rebuttal there.

    The city is already awash with bus lanes, most of the routes on the corridors have existing bus lanes. the cycle lanes are adding an additional 2 metres on each side of the route, hence the widening.

    Its straightforward enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,567 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    MJohnston wrote: »
    But you're right in a way - they should skip the road widening stuff entirely and just ban cars from those routes.

    This is just a ridiculous statement and part of the reason why plans like this face the opposition they do.

    Dublin does not have enough (affordable or available) housing for the people who want/need to work there. These people are known as commuters.

    Because public transport in Dublin (save for a few flagship projects like the LUAS and DART - although these too are stretched to capacity nowadays) is piss-poor as it is, and practically non-existent outside of it in many cases (especially if not doing a simple A-B journey on a major artery), these people rely on cars.

    With me so far?

    Now.. because these people have to work, they are forced to drive increasingly long distances at a cost of increasing amounts of time and money (fuel, insurance etc), but because they have no REALISTIC alternative, they have to do it (I love the notion on these threads that suggest people do these trips "for the craic" or something!) :rolleyes:

    Dublin and the companies located in it (as well as the wider economy of course) rely on these people to work, pay taxes, provide services and goods and because Dublin is really the ONLY city we have in the country, most of these companies aren't willing or able to move outside it if they want to attract the right talent.

    Cars and the people reliant on them are not the issue here. The issue is DECADES of poor planning, under-investment and a general half-assed approach to everything. This has been exacerbated by the lost decade we've just experienced where this was able to continue only because so many were out of work.

    Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail have NEVER been known for their reliability, efficiency or flexibility. Yet somehow these failings of management and organisation are the fault of the people who can't afford to have their livelihoods dependent on these wholly inadequate services and have had to make alternative arrangements (hence why all the surrounding motorways are full every weekday morning and evening)

    But yes... let's close roads to cars, force these people onto non-existent buses or train seats, or make them give up their job entirely perhaps? Maybe that'll work! Of course we might have the small matter of another recession to deal with but sure, at least the roads will be freed up for the then empty buses!


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Bambi wrote: »
    If you say so, I guess. Quality rebuttal there.

    The city is already awash with bus lanes, most of the routes on the corridors have existing bus lanes. the cycle lanes are adding an additional 2 metres on each side of the route, hence the widening.

    Its straightforward enough.

    People from areas where the cycle lane is detoured off the bus lane are still complaining endlessly about this, so you're wrong there. Remove the cycle lanes and there'd still be complaining about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,224 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Bambi wrote: »
    If you say so, I guess. Quality rebuttal there.

    The city is already awash with bus lanes, most of the routes on the corridors have existing bus lanes. the cycle lanes are adding an additional 2 metres on each side of the route, hence the widening.

    Its straightforward enough.

    That's just not true, there are bus lanes where painting them on wasn't impinging too much on space allocated to private cars but this has resulted in numerous and extremely troublesome pinch points in the network where the road narrows and car becomes king. Bus connects address the pinch points and delivers cycling infrastructure which separates cyclists from buses, increasing the speed of both by removing conflict.

    For example ask anyone who gets a bus from Blanch to the City Centre, they'll tell you old cabra road and Prussia st, i.e. the part with no bus lane represents about half the journey time. This will be resolved by bus connects. Similar issues on the Rathfarnham corridor.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 Kfagan10


    sharper wrote: »
    I thought it might be the case where there was another article or even a tweet where they explained themselves more fully but there really doesn't seem to be anything out there in relation to these better/cheaper solutions.

    The meeting of the Rathgar Residents Association on bus connects seemed to have a specific focus and it wasn't the health of public transport

    https://www.rathgarresidentsassociation.ie/news/item/dublin-bus-connect-opens-the-public-consultation-process

    Their alternative is the Metro South West suggestion. So nothing doable in the same timeframe as Busconnects.


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