Do you own property?

PommieBast · 22-01-2020 10:21am

Used to own property in the UK joint with my brother before we both emigrated (to different countries) in 2012. Did well out of rent control as my circa €900/month for an inner-city flat was never increased until the cap came in. Landlord now selling up so in process of buying my own place.

In a relationship but since I am putting up all the cash it is better to stay "single" until the transaction is closed.

sbsquarepants · 22-01-2020 11:10am

People have short memories. It's not so long ago that a whole swathe of people were forced into being landlords by virtue of the property crash, usually renting places out for considerably less than the mortgage repayments.
There was no big rush to decry the "greedy" tenants exploiting the situation!

[Deleted User] · 22-01-2020 11:16am

Home ownership is essential in Ireland. When you rent, you will only ever get a 1 year lease. You can easily be asked to leave with just a few weeks notice. Your rent can be increased with just a few weeks notice. You can't have pets. You can't smoke if you wish. You can't paint, decorate or make any real home improvements. And most importantly, it will never be yours. When you retire, you will still be paying whatever the market rate is at that time. The positive is that you can easily move / leave at any time if you wish.

Home ownership is great, but it has plenty of challenges as well. Sometimes renters don't see the full picture. Paying the deposit, stamp duty, legal fees, snagging. Home Insurance, Mortgage protection, property tax. The cost of furnishing the house. Annual service fees on boilers etc. If you get into financial difficulty, you can't just hand in your notice to the landlord. You still need to pay the mortgage for the remainder of the term. Or go on a moratorium which will screw your credit rating for years.

Ush1 · 22-01-2020 11:17am

The greedy thing is nonsense. Not everyone wants to own their place so there will always be a need for landlords.

Mad_maxx · 22-01-2020 11:18am

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

Home ownership is essential in Ireland. When you rent, you will only ever get a 1 year lease. You can easily be asked to leave with just a few weeks notice. Your rent can be increased with just a few weeks notice. You can't have pets. You can't smoke if you wish. You can't paint, decorate or make any real home improvements. And most importantly, it will never be yours. When you retire, you will still be paying whatever the market rate is at that time. The positive is that you can easily move / leave at any time if you wish.

Home ownership is great, but it has plenty of challenges as well. Sometimes renters don't see the full picture. Paying the deposit, stamp duty, legal fees, snagging. Home Insurance, Mortgage protection, property tax. The cost of furnishing the house. Annual service fees on boilers etc. If you get into financial difficulty, you can't just hand in your notice to the landlord. You still need to pay the mortgage for the remainder of the term. Or go on a moratorium which will screw your credit rating for years.

Tenants can do just about anything to a property in Ireland short of torching the place and face no consequences

As for being forced to leave, they can hold on for years without paying

Mad_maxx · 22-01-2020 11:25am

Emilia Blue Snowstorm wrote: »

Yup, cleared my mortgage two years ago.

I always thought I'd get a call from the bank, meet the manager, get a handshake and ''congratulations mister'', but nope.. The postman delivers your deeds and a whole bunch of legal stuff and that it, you're mortgage free.

Such an anti climax.

Then the banks start hitting you up with loan offers, but they can feck off. I'm mortgage, car loan and college fee's loans free now

You have to apply to have the mortgage charge removed, you even have to pay, they don't automatically send the deeds out once the final repayment is made

Hoop66 · 22-01-2020 11:25am

I own our family home, I have no mortgage because my wife died and the life insurance paid off the mortgage. On the whole I'd rather have my wife back.

Mad_maxx · 22-01-2020 11:27am

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Because some people don’t approve of any sort of property ownership.

Yes, they would like to make serfs of us all

bri007 · 22-01-2020 11:35am

That puts everything into perspective.

Sorry for your loss

Hoop66 wrote: »

I own our family home, I have no mortgage because my wife died and the life insurance paid off the mortgage. On the whole I'd rather have my wife back.

o1s1n · 22-01-2020 11:52am

I have an apartment in Dublin city centre with no mortgage, feel incredibly lucky tbh, especially when looking at current rental prices.

Debating about potentially taking out a mortgage, buying a house a little further out, renting the apartment and using the proceeds to pay off a chunk of the new mortgage.

Hard decision though as I had a mortgage years ago on a different property and wasn't too enamored with having that much debt.

Sleepy · 22-01-2020 12:02pm

We bought three and a half years ago and still have over 25 years left on the mortgage so, while we own our home we've a long way to go before we own it free and clear. On top of that, we bought a fixer upper that, even after all the work we've done to it, still has a long way to go before it's done. I'm certain it'd fail to comply with the regulations for HAP, RAS or the RTB rules for private rentals.

Had I any sense in my twenties, I'd have been in a position to buy a lot sooner but looking around at my peers, it's safe to say that had I done so I'd have spent a few years in negative equity during the crash. Most of those properties seem to be coming good now though, particularly those bought on tracker mortgages.

I wouldn't fancy trying to buy now though. While we missed out on the mortgage interest relief and were too early for the help-to-buy scheme, we've had a fair bit of capital appreciation in the time since we've bought and only about half of it is related to the work we've done so far. TBH, I'd be afraid of using the help-to-buy scheme to purchase anything in a new development in North County Dublin though since Fingal County Council seem to be working with charitable housing bodies to double or treble the 10% social allocation in new estates. It'd be far too easy to find yourself stuck paying a 500k mortgage for a lovely A rated home in a hell-hole you can't escape due to the negative equity your new neighbours have caused for you.

Antares35 · 22-01-2020 12:09pm

Sleepy wrote: »

We bought three and a half years ago and still have over 25 years left on the mortgage so, while we own our home we've a long way to go before we own it free and clear. On top of that, we bought a fixer upper that, even after all the work we've done to it, still has a long way to go before it's done. I'm certain it'd fail to comply with the regulations for HAP, RAS or the RTB rules for private rentals.

Had I any sense in my twenties, I'd have been in a position to buy a lot sooner but looking around at my peers, it's safe to say that had I done so I'd have spent a few years in negative equity during the crash. Most of those properties seem to be coming good now though, particularly those bought on tracker mortgages.

I wouldn't fancy trying to buy now though. While we missed out on the mortgage interest relief and were too early for the help-to-buy scheme, we've had a fair bit of capital appreciation in the time since we've bought and only about half of it is related to the work we've done so far. TBH, I'd be afraid of using the help-to-buy scheme to purchase anything in a new development in North County Dublin though since Fingal County Council seem to be working with charitable housing bodies to double or treble the 10% social allocation in new estates. It'd be far too easy to find yourself stuck paying a 500k mortgage for a lovely A rated home in a hell-hole you can't escape due to the negative equity your new neighbours have caused for you.

Sleepy · 22-01-2020 12:43pm

Antares35 wrote: »

Say you buy a house off plans for 500k in the knowledge that 10% of your neighbours will be social housing (a reasonable policy and one I agree with btw).

Then, let's say the council or one of the not-for-profit housing bodies (Peter McVery, Cluid etc) bulk buy a considerable number of the remaining units in the development.

Now your estate could be 30% (or more) social housing and there's a much higher chance of getting problem neighbours. The re-sale value of your house is now likely to be lower than what you initially paid for it.

Should enough of your fellow purchasers choose to let their properties back to the council via Long Term Lease, RAS or to HAP tenants (the likelihood of which increases as the level of owner-occupiers in the estate decreases), you could well find yourself living in an estate that's now, to all intents and purposes, a council estate.

And since this will greatly reduce the value of your property, it's easy to see the scenario where you're now stuck in negative equity and can't afford to move elsewhere while couple of bad apples the council have housed in your lovely new estate are making life there a misery.

There's already been a few posters on the Accomodation forum who've found themselves in this situation.

Zulu · 22-01-2020 1:13pm

Hoop66 wrote: »

I own our family home, I have no mortgage because my wife died and the life insurance paid off the mortgage. On the whole I'd rather have my wife back.

That's heartbreaking. I'm very sorry for your loss. I dont know what else to say...

Ray Palmer · 22-01-2020 1:19pm

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

Home ownership is essential in Ireland. When you rent, you will only ever get a 1 year lease. You can easily be asked to leave with just a few weeks notice. Your rent can be increased with just a few weeks notice. You can't have pets. You can't smoke if you wish. You can't paint, decorate or make any real home improvements. And most importantly, it will never be yours. When you retire, you will still be paying whatever the market rate is at that time. The positive is that you can easily move / leave at any time if you wish.
.

This just isn't true. After 6 months you become a part 4 tenancy which gives you 6 years right to the property. Depending on how long you live your notice period increases so not a few weeks notice.

Most landlords will allow you decorate if you want. I ask for another deposit to repaint if they want something I don't. People can't be stopped from smoking in a property and it is only in shared property no smoking rules can be brought in. Two of my tenants have pets and when I drop down the Christmas presents to them I include toys for the pets.

So besides getting all the above wrong you are right you won't own the property. The things is you were never buying it nor paying to maintain it. Never have to pay for the appliances, insurance, LPT etc... You pay for a service and get it when you couldn't afford to buy it.

I laugh at people saying my rent is X and I could pay a mortgage with that without considering all the details. Yes X is the same as a mortgage for a property but not where you are renting. You have to have a deposit and all the extra expenses with owning a property.

[Deleted User] · 22-01-2020 1:32pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This just isn't true. After 6 months you become a part 4 tenancy which gives you 6 years right to the property. Depending on how long you live your notice period increases so not a few weeks notice.

Most landlords will allow you decorate if you want. I ask for another deposit to repaint if they want something I don't. People can't be stopped from smoking in a property and it is only in shared property no smoking rules can be brought in. Two of my tenants have pets and when I drop down the Christmas presents to them I include toys for the pets.

So besides getting all the above wrong you are right you won't own the property. The things is you were never buying it nor paying to maintain it. Never have to pay for the appliances, insurance, LPT etc... You pay for a service and get it when you couldn't afford to buy it.

I laugh at people saying my rent is X and I could pay a mortgage with that without considering all the details. Yes X is the same as a mortgage for a property but not where you are renting. You have to have a deposit and all the extra expenses with owning a property.

You can still be asked to leave at any time though. Your notice will depend on how long you have been there. In a lot of cases, people renting will be there a few years max so not much notice.

When I rented, every landlord I had insisted on no pets, no smoking and no decorating that included paint or holes in the walls. I rented multiple properties over the years. Obviously the smoking and pets is tough to enforce.

You sound like a good Landlord though!

the last paragraph of your post is correct. Renters always think that Home Ownership will be much easier. That isn't always the case. I doubt I pay much less now than I did when I rented. The mortgage is obviously cheaper but so much more other expenses.

Ray Palmer · 22-01-2020 1:51pm

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

You can still be asked to leave at any time though. Your notice will depend on how long you have been there. In a lot of cases, people renting will be there a few years max so not much notice.

When I rented, every landlord I had insisted on no pets, no smoking and no decorating that included paint or holes in the walls. I rented multiple properties over the years. Obviously the smoking and pets is tough to enforce.

You sound like a good Landlord though!

the last paragraph of your post is correct. Renters always think that Home Ownership will be much easier. That isn't always the case. I doubt I pay much less now than I did when I rented. The mortgage is obviously cheaper but so much more other expenses.

After 6 months 90 days
After 1 year 120 days
After 3 180 days
After 7 196 days
After 8+ 224 days
None of which are a few weeks as you claimed and I can't see how you can say any of this time is not much. It is plenty.

How many places have you rented that mean your experience accurately represents the entire market? I have rented to over 100 people.

A landlord can tell you no smoking but it means nothing. The certainly can say and enforce no pets. I equally will not allow thumb tacks on the wall and the tenant will have to repair any such damage.

Had a tenant put up shelves and the day he was leaving I came down gave him back his deposit. He was leaving shortly afterwards so I thought all was OK and just asked him to post the keys through the door after he left. He decided he was taking the shelves with him. Didn't unscrew them just pulled them off the wall with a huge chunk of the plaster with them. Had been freshly plaster 2 years earlier. For €10 of shelving. Lesson learned I never give the deposit back until they are out of the property.

Get Real · 22-01-2020 2:15pm

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

You can still be asked to leave at any time though. Your notice will depend on how long you have been there. In a lot of cases, people renting will be there a few years max so not much notice.

When I rented, every landlord I had insisted on no pets, no smoking and no decorating that included paint or holes in the walls. I rented multiple properties over the years. Obviously the smoking and pets is tough to enforce.

You sound like a good Landlord though!

the last paragraph of your post is correct. Renters always think that Home Ownership will be much easier. That isn't always the case. I doubt I pay much less now than I did when I rented. The mortgage is obviously cheaper but so much more other expenses.

I agree with you that home ownership comes with more expenses, but overall, it's an investment long term. Not a speculative/profit making one, I'm talking about the family dwelling here.

My mortgage, (presuming I'm alive! and other normal factors) will be paid off in 29 years. It'll have cost me the principal + interest, and any associated taxes&bills. But then I own it. It's an asset. I could sell it for x amount and use the money to live abroad. I could keep it and live out my days there, paying bills only, and pass it on to my children.

But if I chose the long term renting model, in 30 years I'd still have to find money for rent, it'd be a cost until death. And when death arrives, I have no physical asset. There is no brick and mortar building I can use to sell for a lump sum to travel, or put me in a nursing home, or pass on to my children.

As you also said, there is no true long term certainty when renting in this country and I agree there. A single person in their late 50s, what will they do in ten years time? There will be a time bomb as renting is now more common, and will become more common. So legislation needs to be discussed to futureproof the renting masses, that is fair to both parties.

Potential-Monke · 23-01-2020 8:26am

I did. Jumped on that bandwagon as I thought it was the done thing. Now I'm houseless (due to leaving the county is was in) and in negative equity because of it.

My recommendation: Don't get a mortgage. It's what the bank and Government want, keep you trapped for 20+ years.

sbsquarepants · 23-01-2020 8:55am

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I did. Jumped on that bandwagon as I thought it was the done thing. Now I'm houseless (due to leaving the county is was in) and in negative equity because of it.

My recommendation: Don't get a mortgage. It's what the bank and Government want, keep you trapped for 20+ years.

That's fine when you're young and working, what happens when you get old and want to retire though? If you don't have giant pension you're in trouble without an already paid for roof over your head.

Potential-Monke · 24-01-2020 3:28am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's fine when you're young and working, what happens when you get old and want to retire though? If you don't have giant pension you're in trouble without an already paid for roof over your head.

I'll let you know in another 40 years, well, 42, possibly 43 next year, and maybe 50 by the time I get to retirement with the way things are going. I don't like to think that far ahead, because I genuinely don't think I'll get to live that long.

maccored · 24-01-2020 4:25pm

I'm in the process of un-owning my house with the sale hopefully going through this month. Cant wait to get in to the rental market as its half the price of my mortgage

maccored · 24-01-2020 4:29pm

Get Real wrote: »

but overall, it's an investment long term

I disagree. my overall cost of owning a house over the past 20 years by far is a larger cost than if I was renting. You dont need to pay for wear and tear repairs when renting, nor the housing tax. My house has never been in negative equity but in saying that it's been a struggle to sell it in the current market for a price that would have resulted in buying it being an investment. Ive ended up selling it for roughly the same money I put into it

tom1ie · 24-01-2020 4:37pm

maccored wrote: »

I'm in the process of un-owning my house with the sale hopefully going through this month. Cant wait to get in to the rental market as its half the price of my mortgage

I would imagine you are an exception to the rule at this moment in time.

maccored · 24-01-2020 4:41pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I would imagine you are an exception to the rule at this moment in time.

not too sure - i'd say theres quite a few people whose mortgage is more than the average rent

Luckycharm · 24-01-2020 5:35pm

Emilia Blue Snowstorm wrote: »

Yup, cleared my mortgage two years ago.

I always thought I'd get a call from the bank, meet the manager, get a handshake and ''congratulations mister'', but nope.. The postman delivers your deeds and a whole bunch of legal stuff and that it, you're mortgage free.

Such an anti climax.

Then the banks start hitting you up with loan offers, but they can feck off. I'm mortgage, car loan and college fee's loans free now

Always wondered what happened at end of Mortgage, won't be another 14 years. What do people do with deeds, keep them secured in your house or with solicitors?

banie01 · 24-01-2020 5:38pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

Always wondered what happened at end of Mortgage, won't be another 14 years. What do people do with deeds, keep them secured in your house or with solicitors?

Mine are in a fire proof box.
Land registry makes the necessity to have the deeds locked away and safe less of an issue than it used to be.

dotsman · 24-01-2020 6:19pm

maccored wrote: »

I disagree. my overall cost of owning a house over the past 20 years by far is a larger cost than if I was renting.

maccored wrote: »

not too sure - i'd say theres quite a few people whose mortgage is more than the average rent

What/where did you buy?

I bought my home at the peak of the boom, for a higher price than it would currently fetch. Yet, my mortgage is less than half what it would cost to rent.

So, while I may still be "down" 30K on the price, spent money revamping some rooms (new kitchen etc) I am up ~100K overall due to the fortune I have saved in rent over the past 12 years.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 25-01-2020 3:01pm

Yep.

Own the family home outright. The wife inherited her parents home as well which we rent out.

I also own a block of pre-63 flats. 6 individual units in a red brick. I could live off the income from this alone. Have it rented out to Brazilians. Nice people and don't give me any hassle. I only rent to foreigners now. Irish people just aren't worth the effort.

Bythefire · 25-01-2020 3:54pm

Bought a small house 5 years ago, I had some savings, paid it off early last year.

Bought a shell last year, almost finished turning it into a 3 bed bungalow. Stressful but worth it.

I’ll never rent either, I’m not getting caught like so many with tenants not paying and overstaying/trashing the house. If I sell the first, it will cover the cost of completing the second but I’m in no rush to sell at the moment.

Do you own property?

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