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Yiddish in Ireland

  • 31-12-2013 7:21pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    I took an interest in Yiddish recently, it was always something I was aware of but never knew anything about beyond it being a language of european jews and a few songs I heard years ago (and as I found out later, from The Simpsons!), but since I started looking up a bit about it I have been fascinated by it. Then I saw an article on RTE today about the Jewish Museum in Dublin and thought it would be interesting to find out if anyone spoke Yiddish in Ireland? I assumed at first they would speak Hebrew and English, some possibly Irish but then I read that there was a large influx of Russian jewish immigrants at one point and would it be correct to assume their language was Yiddish? If anyone knows anything about this topic I would love to hear it!



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    I took an interest in Yiddish recently, it was always something I was aware of but never knew anything about beyond it being a language of european jews and a few songs I heard years ago (and as I found out later, from The Simpsons!), but since I started looking up a bit about it I have been fascinated by it. Then I saw an article on RTE today about the Jewish Museum in Dublin and thought it would be interesting to find out if anyone spoke Yiddish in Ireland? I assumed at first they would speak Hebrew and English, some possibly Irish but then I read that there was a large influx of Russian jewish immigrants at one point and would it be correct to assume their language was Yiddish? If anyone knows anything about this topic I would love to hear it!

    It's many years since I was in the Jewish Museum. I got there a pamphlet on the Yiddish language in Ireland. One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish. It also referred to a Jewish couple from Ireland holidaying on the continent in the thirties, meeting a Jewish couple from another country, and being unable to communicate until they all realised that they could do so in Yiddish. If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    feargale wrote: »
    It's many years since I was in the Jewish Museum. I got there a pamphlet on the Yiddish language in Ireland. One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish. It also referred to a Jewish couple from Ireland holidaying on the continent in the thirties, meeting a Jewish couple from another country, and being unable to communicate until they all realised that they could do so in Yiddish. If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.

    No I realise that at this stage its pretty unlikely there are many speakers left in Ireland, but I think the history of it in Ireland could be interesting, the Connolly story certainly sounds so. I also think I have heard that anecdote about the holiday couples before too.. I hope I have time to visit the museum next time I am in Ireland if it is open.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    No I realise that at this stage its pretty unlikely there are many speakers left in Ireland, but I think the history of it in Ireland could be interesting, the Connolly story certainly sounds so. I also think I have heard that anecdote about the holiday couples before too.. I hope I have time to visit the museum next time I am in Ireland if it is open.

    I would think the history of Yiddish in Ireland is pretty straightforward, in that virtually every Jewish immigrant to Ireland from say 1880 to 1950 was a native Yiddish speaker. They were all Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe. A few Sephardi came to Ireland before then, including a mayor of Youghal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    I personally don't know any Yiddish speakers, but then I've been in the country less than half a year. There are likely a number of Dubliners who know some Yiddish expressions, but so far most of the fellow Jews that I met spoke Hebrew, English, and in one case, Irish (he now lives in Jerusalem). I will, however, inquire further about this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    You might also be able to find Yiddish classes in London or Manchester, both of which have large religious Jewish communities.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Thank you DrGuy, it would be interesting to hear what your inquiries find out!

    At the moment I am still learning German and I try to learn a few phrases from Yiddish that are similar to the German ones from a book on Yiddish slang I found over here in Vienna


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Almost all the Jews whoncame to Ireland in the late 19th century were from one village in Lithuania whose name escapes me, but it's well documented.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Almost all the Jews whoncame to Ireland in the late 19th century were from one village in Lithuania whose name escapes me, but it's well documented.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I was just reading parts of this book on google, 'Jewish Ireland in the Age of Joyce: A Socioeconomic History', has anyone ever read it? It seems pretty detailed and might have some information on the language. From the bits I can read from google books all I learned was a few derogatory Yiddish phrases for Irish non-Jews..


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    From what I was told, some older members of the Irish Jewish community should be fluent in Yiddish. There might also be Yiddish classes in Vienna.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    You need to read the great little book by Leo Rossen 'The JOYs of Yiddish'. Very funny and very thought-making.

    tac, Jewish but not Yiddish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    feargale wrote: »
    One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish.

    A copy of the leaflet is online with a translation available

    http://comeheretome.com/2010/03/01/james-connolly-yiddish-election-leaflet-1902/

    The Irish Citizen Army was later founded in the rooms of the Reverend/Professor Gwynn, Professor of Hebrew (and Greek) at Trinity College.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    The Irish Citizen Army was later founded in the rooms of the Reverend/Professor Gwynn, Professor of Hebrew (and Greek) at Trinity College.
    Fascinating family, many brilliant members, there were so many of them with positions in TCD that for a while it was colloquially known as Gwynnity College.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Isn't Yiddish making something of a comeback due to the increasing size of the Hasidic Jewish communities in Israel, the United States, and in some other countries?

    I wouldn't imagine it has been spoken in Ireland for a good many years, which is a shame as it's a remarkable language. I understand that Israel didn't adopt it as an official language as it was felt it would discriminate against Sephardic Jews.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    tac foley wrote: »
    You need to read the great little book by Leo Rossen 'The JOYs of Yiddish'. Very funny and very thought-making.

    tac, Jewish but not Yiddish.

    I think I saw the german translation of it today in a bookstore, it's like a glossary right? (Same author, but it was just called Jiddisch)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Isn't Yiddish making something of a comeback due to the increasing size of the Hasidic Jewish communities in Israel, the United States, and in some other countries?

    I wouldn't imagine it has been spoken in Ireland for a good many years, which is a shame as it's a remarkable language. I understand that Israel didn't adopt it as an official language as it was felt it would discriminate against Sephardic Jews.
    Interesting, I honestly can't say I am familiar with the phrase Hasidic, could you make sum them up for me in a nutshell, in your own words preferably, I can't say I was enlightened as to why they they are so distinct after some internet searching (I read they are more into mysticism and having religion for the common man, but also that they are orthodox:confused:)

    I was first introduced to it be some non jewish german friends who sing some of their songs


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    Interesting, I honestly can't say I am familiar with the phrase Hasidic, could you make sum them up for me in a nutshell, in your own words preferably, I can't say I was enlightened as to why they they are so distinct after some internet searching (I read they are more into mysticism and having religion for the common man, but also that they are orthodox:confused:)

    I was first introduced to it be some non jewish german friends who sing some of their songs

    Hasidic refers to specific streams of Orthodox Judaism. The Hassidic movement started in 17th century following the Cossack rebellions. Most Hassids were Yiddish speakers, but so were the more traditional Litvacks (Lithuanians) who opposed the Hassidic movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    feargale wrote: »
    If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.

    There's also thousands of Yiddish speakers in London as well with strong Hassidic communities in Stamford Hill and Golders Green. I was only in IKEA on Sunday and there were loads of them speaking Yiddish. Similarly I was flying to Tel Aviv a few months ago from Luton and the majority of the flight over were London and Manchester Jews speaking Yiddish. They're a bit like people from Quebec, they flit effortlessly between the two languages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    Was it Yiddish or Hebrew? Nowadays there are far more Hebrew speakers than Yiddish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    DrGuy wrote: »
    Was it Yiddish or Hebrew? Nowadays there are far more Hebrew speakers than Yiddish.

    Definitely Yiddish. It's very commonly used amongst the Hareidi Jews in England.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    I think I saw the german translation of it today in a bookstore, it's like a glossary right? (Same author, but it was just called Jiddisch)

    He's written several books about Yiddish, including Hooray for Yiddish and The Joy of Yiddish. The latter is more than just a glossary, it's an amusing history of the language along with several anecdotes to explain the etymology of certain words, including the famous story about the stolen camel to explain how the word shmuck evolved from meaning a piece of jewelry to being a term of contempt for someone you may have little time for.

    Yiddish or Jiddisch is simply a transliteration of the German word Jüdisch, meaning "Jewish". Yiddish is after all essentially a dialect, or several dialects, of German with a significant imported vocabulary from Hebrew and written in Hebrew script. Much of it is mutually intelligible by German speakers, so long as they don't have to read it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Jim Connolly released an election leaflet in Yiddish in 1902 (still didn't get elected)

    voteconnolly.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    He's written several books about Yiddish, including Hooray for Yiddish and The Joy of Yiddish. The latter is more than just a glossary, it's an amusing history of the language along with several anecdotes to explain the etymology of certain words, including the famous story about the stolen camel to explain how the word shmuck evolved from meaning a piece of jewelry to being a term of contempt for someone you may have little time for.

    Yiddish or Jiddisch is simply a transliteration of the German word Jüdisch, meaning "Jewish". Yiddish is after all essentially a dialect, or several dialects, of German with a significant imported vocabulary from Hebrew and written in Hebrew script. Much of it is mutually intelligible by German speakers, so long as they don't have to read it.

    While Yiddish is primarily Germanic, a significant proportion of the words come from Hebrew, as is the case with most diaspora Jewish languages. There's also an argument as to the origins of the word schmuck in Yiddish, whether it's German, Polish, or other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭DrGuy


    For anyone interested, here's an interesting video about the RoseEttaCohen Method of Learning Yiddish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I know this is an old thread so sorry for bumping it. ( I HATE when people bump old threads and here is me doing it!)

    My maternal great grandparents spoke it as their first lingua franca.

    She was actually a jew from New York he was a jew from Ukraine. She came to study nursing in Dublin he emigrated here. They met and married. He spoke Russian as well as Yiddish she spoke hasidic yiddish he spoke eastern yiddish. There are lots of different dialects.


    There was actually an Irish dialect of yiddish separate to the dialects my grandparents spoke. You are correct though to say its hardly spoken now.

    There is a chabad community in Ireland they use litvish Yiddish. Rabbi Zalman lent is the leader.

    The diff in dialects can be vast. My grandfather's yiddish was very influenced by Russian and Ukrainian. And my grandmother's very germanic.

    Irish Yiddish is called Hiberno Yiddish.




    Benny cake is partially correct.

    Israel is 50% mizrahi jews(arab jews) and 10% sephardi. There are also beta Israel (Ethopian jews)

    Sephardi jews spoke Ladino and Mizrahi jews spoke/speak arabic.

    Obviously they all had a basis in bibilcal hebrew so modern hebrew was invented.

    Russian though and arabic is still spoken at home by many in Israel.

    So inclusivity was a motivator. But also to a lot of non yiddish speakers some dialects sound very like German. I think that played a part too.

    The largest speaking communities in are New York today with some in Israel.

    I can't speak it at all. But its still being learnt.

    Again sorry for bumping the old thread. You can lock or delete this if you want :)

    Here is a funny video of James Cagney speaking Yiddish

    Funny fact James Cagney was actually fluent in Yiddish. He learnt it from the jewish kids he used to play with.




    Pretty AWFUL stereotypical Irish cop character which annoys me of course!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    I reckon Yiddish no longer edists as a spoken language in Europe.

    I heard it only once. I flew from NY to Montreal a few years ago. If you remember it was the day some loony attacked the parliament in Ottawa, so although we didn't know the reason, the security at Montreal Airport was huge. We queued for about two hours in a line that snaked like about six conjoined letter Ss. You would pass the same person in another part of the line about ten times. There were two very obviously Orthodox Jews in the queue, and each time they passed each other they exchanged remarks in what sounded very like German, but of course it had to be Yiddish.

    A few years ago I visited the Jewish museum in Istanbul and picked up a few CDs of Ladino songs. I had only ever previously heard it in the 1970s in a tv programme about Sarajevo. It was strange to hear a lady singing in a type of Spanish with a heavy Slav accent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I used to work with few Jewish colleagues in NYC and had Yiddish words explained to me - I have no idea of how much Yiddish is spoken in Europe, but it’s influence is widespread in NYC. Considering the levels of immigration there are few Irish but many Yiddish loan words in American English in daily use. No doubt there are more but these few come to mind - klutz, spiel, schmuck, kosher, schlep, mentch, glitch, chutzpah, schmaltz, schmooz, schtick. Just watch an episode of Seinfeld or Sex in the City. And klezmer music is becoming more common.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Oy.

    You need to read the excellent book about Yiddish, called 'The jOYS of Yiddish' by Leo Rosten. It's very gemutlich.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    I used to work with few Jewish colleagues in NYC and had Yiddish words explained to me - I have no idea of how much Yiddish is spoken in Europe, but it’s influence is widespread in NYC. Considering the levels of immigration there are few Irish but many Yiddish loan words in American English in daily use. No doubt there are more but these few come to mind - klutz, spiel, schmuck, kosher, schlep, mentch, glitch, chutzpah, schmaltz, schmooz, schtick. Just watch an episode of Seinfeld or Sex in the City. And klezmer music is becoming more common.

    Klezmer music is HUGE in Europe...

    This is Dobrovnotch covering Du Hast by Rammstein.



    These guys are Russian obv but are based in the EU.



    Daniel Kahn and the painted Bird do a lot of Yiddish mixed with English songs

    Daniel Kahn and the painted Bird are American but based in Berlin.







    Daniel Kahn covering Lenard Cohen's Hallelujah" - in Yiddish :)



    Spock speaking his mother tongue

    :P



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    tac foley wrote: »
    Oy.

    You need to read the excellent book about Yiddish, called 'The jOYS of Yiddish' by Leo Rosten. It's very gemutlich.

    Ashamed to say i know very little Yiddish :o


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